What is the U.S. goal in Ukraine?

[Ringo]

 

[Ringo]

 

[Mushroom]

Remember the bombing of Serbia by NATO aggressors?

Remember the wars that started (mostly by Serbia) after Yugoslavia imploded? Where once Tito had died and the country broke up Slobodan Milosevic started attacking the other former members? The death camps they had set up, ethnic cleansing and genocide? The murder of those who opposed him in his own nation, including former President Ivan Stambolic?

His trial and conviction in the International Tribunal? Where 90 people in the Serbian government were convicted of crimes against humanity and other war crimes?

God, you are so predictable in your attempts at pushing really bad propaganda. Hell, are you even aware that Russia itself send over 1,000 soldiers to Bosnia in order to force Serbia to remain on their side of the border and stop attacking their neighbor?

Once again, you spew out nonsense, apparently hoping that nobody remembers what was going on. And that Russia itself was trying to get Serbia to back off from their atrocities. Hell, Boris Yeltsin himself is the one that negotiated Serbia to leave Kosovo and allow NATO to occupy it and restore it to order. After Serbia itself invaded and occupied it in an attempt to annex it into their own nation.

So once again, you are for some reason completely ignoring the actions of Serbia in starting wars, yet blaming those that tried to stop them as the aggressor.

If nothing else, you certainly are predictable.

 

[Ringo]

If nothing else, you certainly are predictable.

The truth is always predictable. It is the lie that needs tricks. Did the Serbs want to keep a unified state? So did the North of the United States when the southern states seceded. And you'd better shut up about the tribunals. The German Nazis had tribunals too.

 

[Mushroom]

Did the Serbs want to keep a unified state?

Yes, they did. They attacked all of their neighbors (mostly ethnic and religious minorities) and tried to wipe them out and annex their lands.

Holy cow, your idiotic claims are not even good propaganda. Even Russia at the time admitted that the Serbs were the aggressors.

 

[Ringo]

Yes, they did. They attacked all of their neighbors (mostly ethnic and religious minorities) and tried to wipe them out and annex their lands.

Of course, the Serbs, like the Russians, are always attacking their innocent neighbors who are sniffing flowers... Arguing with an american about international affairs is like explaining higher mathematics to a megalomaniacal retard.
Google "genocide of Serbs" and you will learn a lot of interesting things.

Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mushroom]

Google "genocide of Serbs" and you will learn a lot of interesting things.

What, that an occupied Nazi territory carried out mass murder upon people they thought were inhuman? Like they had with the Jews, Romani, and others?

Did you miss at that time it was occupied and controlled by the Germans? One of the things the NSDAP is most well known for is their multiple genocides, and this is yet another one that actually pales when compared to many others.

So what are you saying, exactly. That because the Germans did it to them, that excuses them doing it to others?

 

[Ringo]

Did you miss at that time it was occupied and controlled by the Germans? One of the things the NSDAP is most well known for is their multiple genocides, and this is yet another one that actually pales when compared to many others.

The NSDRP in Serbia simply guarded while Serb neighbors destroyed them.

 

[Mushroom]

The NSDRP in Serbia simply guarded while Serb neighbors destroyed them.

Did you even read your own reference? Obviously not or you would not be saying that. Here are some excerpts, and remember this is your reference.

Serbs, Jews and Romani were arrested and sent to concentration camps such as Jasenovac, Stara Gradiška, Gospić and Jadovno.

Gee, that sounds exactly like what the Germans had been doing.

The Ciglana (brickyards, Jasenovac III) camp, the main killing ground and essentially a death camp, had 88% mortality rate, higher than Auschwitz's 84.6%.[97] A former brickyard, a furnace was engineered into a crematorium, with witness testimony of some, including children, being burnt alive and stench of human flesh spreading in the camp.[98] Luburić had a gas chamber built at Jasenovac V, where a considerable number of inmates were killed during a three-month experiment with sulfur dioxide and Zyklon B, but this method was abandoned due to poor construction.

Once again, exactly as the Germans had done. Even down to the exact same chemicals in the gas chambers (which was a chemical only made in and available from Germany).

Much of the ideology of the Ustaše was based on Nazi racial theory. Like the Nazis, the Ustaše deemed Jews, Romani, and Slavs to be sub-humans (Untermensch). They endorsed the claims from German racial theorists that Croats were not Slavs but a Germanic race. Their genocides against Serbs, Jews, and Romani were thus expressions of Nazi racial ideology.

And once again, showing that this was done in emulation of the beliefs of the Germans.

Andrija Artuković, the Minister of Interior of the Independent State of Croatia, signed into law a number of racial laws.[82] On 30 April 1941, the government adopted “the legal order of races” and “the legal order of the protection of Atyan blood and the honor of Croatian people”.

Gee, the German Puppet State did exactly what all the other German Puppet State's did, enacted their beliefs and their own version of the Nuremberg Laws.

The Ustaše movement received limited support from ordinary Croats.[69][70] In May 1941, the Ustaše had about 100,000 members who took the oath.

So you claim it was the majority. Yet, only around 100,000 in the new nation of Croatia took the oath and became members of the Urtase regime. Out of a population in excess of 6.5 million. Now forgive me if my math is off, but that seems to be that only 1 in 65 was a member at most. That is a very small minority, the membership of Germany was much greater, around 14% of the German Population were members of the NSDAP. Yet, you claim this was done by most Croats, where their membership was only around 6%.

The number of victims who perished in the Jasenovac concentration camp remains a matter of debate, but current estimates put the total number at around 100,000, about half of whom were Serbs.

Ahh, so they were targeting all other of the undesired minorities as much as they were the Serbs. In other words, exactly as the Germans had done in all of the other puppet states they ruled.

In its judgment in the Hostages Trial, the Nuremberg Military Tribunal concluded that the Independent State of Croatia was not a sovereign entity capable of acting independently of the German military, despite recognition as an independent state by the Axis powers.[243] According to the Tribunal, "Croatia was at all times here involved an occupied country".

Ah yes, the war crime trials afterwards where a great many who ran the government were charged, tried, convicted, and executed.

You see, this is why so many of us laugh at you. And you can't blame anybody but yourself for my using your own reference against you. Maybe in the future you will actually take the time to read your own damned references. That way they can not be used so easily against you and proving that most of what you are saying are lies and complete fabrications.

 

[Ringo]

In April 1941, Yugoslavia was occupied by the forces of the Third Reich. Croatia declared independence with the support of Germany. The state became a raw materials appendage, and the loyalty of the population was supported by the German leadership with the illusion of independence. The Ustashis were reclassified from militants to officials. The Italian Prince Tomislav II was enthroned, but in fact his powers were reduced to zero. Moreover, during the two years of his rule he never pleased his subjects with a visit to the country. The real power was in the hands of Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic.

At the same time, a new state, the "Independent State of Croatia," appeared on the political map. Created on the ruins of occupied Yugoslavia by German and Italian forces, this state formation did not last long - only four terrible years. Terrible for the "foreigners" who inhabited Croatia - Jews, Roma and Serbs.

Ante Pavelic, the head of the radical Ustashi organization, became the head of Independent Croatia. "They were a typical Eastern European nationalist organization of the interwar period: terrorist in their methods (it was the Ustashi who assassinated King Alexander of Yugoslavia and French Foreign Minister Luis Barto in 1934) and fascist in their ideology. Upon coming to power, Ante Pavelic immediately struck a blow against the "foreigners" - Serbs and Jews - who populated Chovatia.

The state of Croatia had about 6.5 million inhabitants, including more than 2 million Serbs (Orthodox, as opposed to Catholic Croats) and 90,000 Jews. As early as April 30, a decree was issued requiring Serbs to wear a blue armband with the letter "P" ("Orthodox"), and Jews to wear an armband with a Star of David. At the same time, Serbs and Jews were disenfranchised. "Jews and Serbs are not citizens of the Croatian independent state, but belong to the state," the government decree said. - Only Aryans have political rights." Public places in Croatia were adorned with signs reading "No Entry for Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Dogs." Soon the eviction of Serbs and Jews from Zagreb began, followed by massacres.

In the field of domestic policy, Pavelic did not have to discover America - it was enough to borrow the experience of Germany. The relevant commission was in charge of racial matters. The Serbs were subjected to numerous prohibitions. They were forbidden to serve in army, hold public posts, marry the Croats and to appear on streets in the evening. More than 200 thousand orthodox Serbs were forced to convert to Catholicism, priests were put under pressure. Entrepreneurs were subjected to special rules of state control, cars were confiscated from the Serbian population.

The phrase "pure Croatian nation" belongs to Pavelic; at the same time, as researchers note, the Ustashis were loyal to Bosnian Muslims (there were about 700,000 Bosnian Muslims in Croatia). Special attention was paid to the national question in the press; the press system was organized according to the German model. However, the new Croatian rulers did not copy everything. For example, their concentration camps did not have gas chambers. Instead, prisoners were buried alive, thrown into rivers and cliffs in pairs, starved, and kept in the heat.

Another innovation of the Ustashas was the knife, called the "serbosek. There are known cases when the invigilators "competed" in the number of victims for a certain period of time using the "srbosek." This weapon became a symbol of the cruelty the Ustashas showed to their victims.

Murders were committed by the Ustashas in all provinces of Croatia; killed by hundreds and thousands, men and women, old people and children. "On August 20, 1941, the Ustasha arrested all the Serb men of my town and took them to the nearby forest of Koprivnica, where they were killed," recalled an eyewitness of the events. - Then it was the turn of their families, who were killed in the same place. They raped women and girls, cut off their breasts, put children on stakes, and quartered old people after blinding them.

Private murders were soon replaced by centralized murders in the "internment and work camps" established in the summer and fall of 1941. The head of these camps, Colonel Vekoslav Luburic, later boasted that he had "killed more people in the Jasenovac camp than the Ottoman Empire had in the entire long period of its occupation of European countries. The Croatian Minister of the Interior, Andrije Artkovic, claimed that some 700,000 people were killed in the Jasenovac camp.

 

[Ringo]

Many of the prisoners starved to death. "Jasenovac was a 60-kilometer-long complex. For women and children there were two camps, Stara Gradiška and Krusčica. But the intellectuals were sent to their deaths at Kerestinec. On July 13, 1941, the prisoners of the camp tried to escape under the cover of partisans. Only 14 of the 111 people survived. Children under the age of 14 were held at Jastrebarsko; during the two months of the camp's existence more than a thousand children were killed there. The "death factory" was housed in a former monastery and castle owned by a prominent noble family. The concentration camp system left virtually no chance for life, but some were saved.
Thus, the Yugoslav doctor Diana Budisavljevic managed to deport 12,000 underage inmates from Croatia. Later, they were adopted in Austria. More than 3,000 children died during the rescue operations. Diana had to deal, among others, with Vekoslav Luburic, the commandant of the Jasenovac camp, who was known for his cruelty toward prisoners. Luburic was often present at the executions. In order to save the children, Budisavljevic negotiated with influential officials and clergymen. On December 3, 1941, she recorded in her diary: "My first appointment with Archbishop Stepinac. And there the result is negative. The archbishop says he has no influence on the government. He is willing to take up my issue, but he knows in advance that he will not be able to achieve anything." Diana Budisavljevic died in 1978 in Austria. She was posthumously awarded the Order of Queen Milica of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

The eyewitness accounts of what happened in the Croatian camps make one shudder. "Luburic ordered me to raise my right leg. I raised it, and he put a child under it. "Hit it!" - he ordered me. I kicked and crushed the child's head."

In all, 750,000 to one million Serbs, Jews and Roma were exterminated in Croatia between 1941 and 1945, according to various estimates. It was a true genocide, carried out on ethnic and religious grounds. It is indicative that no such nightmare took place in neighboring Slovenia, divided into occupation zones by Hungary, Italy and Germany.

The ethno-religious genocide carried out by the authorities of the Independent State of Croatia is comparable to the crimes of the Nazis in Poland and in the occupied territory of the Soviet Union. However, the Ustashi had their own political subjectivity and pursued their own, different from the Nazi, political goals. And the genocide organized by them is not part of the Nazi genocide, but an independent crime against humanity.

Unfortunately, this crime went largely unpunished. The head of the Independent State of Croatia, Ante Pavelic, died in Madrid in December 1959, having received the personal blessing of Pope John XXIII before his death. The head of the Croatian death camps, Vekoslav Luburic, who was also based in Madrid, was active in public affairs and publishing until he was assassinated by an unknown assailant in 1969. Interior Minister Andrije Artukovic fled to the United States, from where he was extradited to Yugoslavia only in 1986, shortly before his death. One of the ideologues of the genocide, Archbishop Aloysije Stepinac of Croatia, to whom the Ustasha military chaplains reported, was convicted in 1946, but spent all five years in prison. In 1953, he was ordained a Roman cardinal, and in 1998 he was beatified by Pope John Paul II - despite the protests of Jewish organizations.

Will the genocide of Serbs, Jews and Roma that was carried out by the Croatian authorities ever become a subject of a European-wide public debate like the Holocaust or the Armenian genocide? The question is an open one.

 

[Mushroom]

In April 1941, Yugoslavia was occupied by the forces of the Third Reich. Croatia declared independence with the support of Germany.

That is what is known as a "puppet state", like Vichy France as opposed to an Occupied State like most of France. And in reality there is little difference, other than they simply found a convenient puppet to run that area, and it made relations with the neutral nations in the war like Finland, Spain, and the Swiss a tad easier as technically that was not under military occupation but held by a local leader.

Of course the Germans picked such individuals who were generally fanatics to the NSDAP beliefs, even when compared to the extreme groups like the SS. But it was still controlled by Germany, did nothing without permission from Germany, and knew they were only in power at the sufferance of Germany and would be wiped out if Germany felt it was in their interest.

Of course, "Technically" the Soviet Union was also made up of independent and autonomous states, like the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the like. Which was a very different status from say the German Democratic Republic, Polish People's Republic or the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. But we all know what happened whenever any of those tried to show even the slightest hint of dissention from the beliefs or orders of the Soviet Union.

The Soviets stormed in with tanks and enforced their iron fisted rule at the end of guns (or more likely tank barrels).

So once again, all you are doing is proving that it was still run by the Germans.

 

[Ringo]

But we all know what happened whenever any of those tried to show even the slightest hint of dissention from the beliefs or orders of the Soviet Union.
The Soviets stormed in with tanks and enforced their iron fisted rule at the end of guns (or more likely tank barrels).

Not at all like what Abraham Lincoln's government did to the seceding Southern states. It did not use tanks! So it was democratic. Not at all like the USSR.

 

[Mushroom]

Not at all like what Abraham Lincoln's government did to the seceding Southern states.

Other than Poland, Czechoslovakia, and a great many others they sent tanks into were not actually part of the Soviet Union! They were fully independent nations, with their own governments. Yet, the soviets treated them as if they were still occupied enemy countries even decades later.

And most of the "states" in the Soviet Union were not there by choice either, they were forced into it at the barrel of a gun. Unlike the Civil War which you brought up, where each and every one of the states had joined the Union by their own choice.

Wow, the degree of failure is strong in your claims.

 

[gipper]

Other than Poland, Czechoslovakia, and a great many others they sent tanks into were not actually part of the Soviet Union! They were fully independent nations, with their own governments. Yet, the soviets treated them as if they were still occupied enemy countries even decades later.

And most of the "states" in the Soviet Union were not there by choice either, they were forced into it at the barrel of a gun. Unlike the Civil War which you brought up, where each and every one of the states had joined the Union by their own choice.

Wow, the degree of failure is strong in your claims.

If only we could eliminate our military as it exists today. Great statement here from the great libertarian Murray Rothbard.

The new federal government formed by the Articles of Confederation was not permitted to levy any taxes upon the public; and any fundamental extension of its powers required unanimous consent by every state government. Above all, the military and war-making power of the national government was hedged in by restraint and suspicion; for the eighteenth-century libertarians understood that war, standing armies, and militarism had long been the main method for aggrandizing State power.

 

[Mushroom]

The new federal government formed by the Articles of Confederation was not permitted to levy any taxes upon the public; and any fundamental extension of its powers required unanimous consent by every state government.

You are aware that was a document to create a temporary wartime government, right? And it barely lasted 5 years and was thrown out because in the end it was a horribly inefficient government that left the country both weak and broke.

So why you are even bringing that up is beyond me. It created a weak central government, and it was known within a year after the war ended that it was not working and they tried multiple times to fix it. Two years after the war ended the government was already on the verge of collapse, in addition to the currency becoming worthless causing an economic collapse.

In reality, the only part of that document that remains is the Perpetual Union.

 

[DudleySmith]

Thanks to Madison, the Federal govt. was specifically denied the power to use military force against any state in the Union. The Union was voluntary, and nobody ever once claimed states could not secede. In fact the northeastern states were constantly threatening secession whenever they didn't get their way in Congress on some issue or other, and some also threatened to secede during the WAr Of 1812 and ally with the British. By 1829, the threats were switched, with southern states like Carolina using secession as a threat.

Those who doubt this can look up the diaries of the Constitutional Convention and find where Pickney proposed a clause granting the Federal govt. the power to use military force against a state, and Madison's response that led to the clause being rejected. Nowhere since the Convention has any politician claimed states could not secede, while we have many who used that threat frequently, both north and south.

In other news, Stalin and Hitler were scum. Harry Truman suggested as a Congressman that the U.S. should back Russia when Hitler was winning, then switch to backing Hitler when the Russians started winning. lol. In the end FDR and the smarter people realized that backing the Soviets was the best of a number of bad choices in the long run. A Nazi state with the Soviet resources and labor to exploit would have made Germany a super power, while the Soviets were pretty much incompetent as conquerors and could be handled al ot easier than a German powerhouse holding Europe and the Soviet empire.

The Ukraine is a major world food exporter. We're facing drought in several parts of the world and food shortages, including in the U.S.. Why we need to kick the likes of Putin out of the Ukraine is obvious to anyone with an IQ in the double digits.

 

[gipper]

You are aware that was a document to create a temporary wartime government, right? And it barely lasted 5 years and was thrown out because in the end it was a horribly inefficient government that left the country both weak and broke.

So why you are even bringing that up is beyond me. It created a weak central government, and it was known within a year after the war ended that it was not working and they tried multiple times to fix it. Two years after the war ended the government was already on the verge of collapse, in addition to the currency becoming worthless causing an economic collapse.

In reality, the only part of that document that remains is the Perpetual Union.

A weak central government with no power to wage war is exactly what we need.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Lesh]

Kennedy is nuts