What is the proper method of dealing with crowd control ...

[Ringel05]

tactically speaking, it is a losing strategy to pound on the demonstrators. maybe it works for assad.

no legal or pseudo-legal excuse will mitigate the negative PR that goes with those pictures.

blabla, the protestors denied other students the rights to study, BULLSHIT.

but, even if that was right.

the PR battle is lost the second the pictures go out of cops or pseudo-cops doing what the pike guy did.



lol at myself for the tactics and strategy.

Yup, the protesters and their supporters know how to manipulate the situation and exploit the police reaction with selective video cuts and accusations. Not saying the cops don't occasionally go overboard but then again we're not the officer or officers in the middle of the situation. Cops should start doing their own videos starting from when the situation starts, showing everything that leads up to any "use of force" and the follow up to minimize the potential for accidental or intentional misinformation release.

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Yup, the protesters and their supporters know how to manipulate the situation and exploit the police reaction with selective video cuts and accusations. Not saying the cops don't occasionally go overboard but then again we're not the officer or officers in the middle of the situation. Cops should start doing their own videos starting from when the situation starts, showing everything that leads up to any "use of force" and the follow up to minimize the potential for accidental or intentional misinformation release.

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

what i am saying is that in this case the authority looks bad.

sitting protesters.

not a threat.

nonchalantly spraying them?

does not look good on national tv.

they need proper training in deescalation methods.


or, in this case, ANY training.

what buffoons.

 

[paulitician]

Lets try having some peaceful protests with no Police around. Lets see how that goes. I'm pretty sure with no Police presence,things will stay peaceful. So whata ya say Big Brother,how bout sitting one out for a change?

 

[Intense]

Oh my GAWD!! Here we go again... Well, those poor, innocent little victims were just sitting around, linking arms and singing "Kum ba ya" and those big, nasty cops just came right up and abused them!

Really??? And let's say that you own one of those businesses down by Wall Street. Some of those mom and pop shops are being hurt pretty bad. You got maggots walking in and using the restrooms to take 'baths' in. When they leave, the bathrooms are dirty and stinky and trashed up. Just what are the responsibilities of those small businesses in the area? Are they supposed to put up with this crap?

And let's suppose you're one of those cops and the mayor, or someone else in authority tells you that those people "have to be moved." And they don't want to be moved. I mean they have a right to sit on the sidewalk and link arms, but what about the people who want to use those sidewalks to do crazy things like walk to and from class or I don't know, something crazy like go to work to make a living? Who's rights take presedence?

The simple fact is that until you've been there, you don't know squat! Pretty easy to stand on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback. You whining bunch of perennial bystanders NEVER actually do. You wait for someone else to do what needs to be done and then you piss and moan about the way it was done. And to stand there and tell me that ALL cops are bad is just so damn ignorant that I can't even find the words to tell you how really stupid you are.

What would amaze me is if one of you people who stand around and bad-mouth the cops would actually freakin DO SOMETHING to help your community. Oh I don't know, go work in a homeless shelter this Thanksgiving... Or maybe you could work at a Vet Center and listen to some of the stories these guys tell. Or maybe you could ride along with some of those big, horrible cops and help them pull those children out of that crushed mini van. Or you can explain to that mom and dad why that innocent drunk crossed the center line and killed their only daughter while the drunk walked?

No, I didn't think so. Talk is cheap... the kind that this thread engages in is typical do nothing horse shit...

Who do you think you are? Obama? Like you could just target them for drone Attacks without Oversight or due Process? Well.... News Flash, you are not Obama.

The correct action is to arrest them, using necessary force, no more than that. It's part of living in a Free Society that places value on the Individual, whether or not they are in agreement with You or I. There is Merit in that.

 

[Ringel05]

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

what i am saying is that in this case the authority looks bad.

sitting protesters.

not a threat.

nonchalantly spraying them?

does not look good on national tv.

they need proper training in deescalation methods.


or, in this case, ANY training.

what buffoons.

I happen to agree with you about the image response/portrayal. I also have no idea what the requirements of training are for campus officers in California so I can't comment on that.
Again, I wasn't there but I'm also aware of the tactics protesters use so I distrust anything that comes from them also.

 

[Amelia]

Lets try having some peaceful protests with no Police around. Lets see how that goes. I'm pretty sure with no Police presence,things will stay peaceful. So whata ya say Big Brother,how bout sitting one out for a change?

I'd be all for a protest with minimal police presence.

And when the protestors stop breaking the law maybe that can happen.



No police is not possible. Police still have a duty to make their regular rounds. But if the protestors would stop breaking the law I'd be 100% behind a minimal presence.

One problem here - these protestors seem bound and determined to break the law.


That seems to be vital to the delivery of their message ... whatever the heck that message is supposed to be.

 

[Ringel05]

Oh and I'm watching the report on the news now with other video which show much more of the story. The cops had just arrested a bunch of students for violating the campus policy of no camping on the college grounds. The protesters surrounded the cops and refused to let them leave until they released those arrested. The protesters were repeatedly warned that pepper spray would be used unless they dispersed and allowed the officers to do their job.

 

[paulitician]

Lets try having some peaceful protests with no Police around. Lets see how that goes. I'm pretty sure with no Police presence,things will stay peaceful. So whata ya say Big Brother,how bout sitting one out for a change?

I'd be all for a protest with minimal police presence.

And when the protestors stop breaking the law maybe that can happen.



No police is not possible. Police still have a duty to make their regular rounds. But if the protestors would stop breaking the law I'd be 100% behind a minimal presence.

One problem here - these protestors seem bound and determined to break the law.


That seems to be vital to the delivery of their message ... whatever the heck that message is supposed to be.

I said lets try it. Why is it so impossible to fathom a protest with no Police there? Is this how far we've fallen? We can't even imagine having a protest without the State being there to harass and control everyone. This is why i'm very disappointed in most here who call themselves Conservatives. Less Government intrusion in our lives is what we're supposed to be fighting for. Many sure have lost their way.

 

[Ernie S.]

Flamethrowers should do the trick....

Air pollution.
National guard worked once before.

 

[BDBoop]

Yup, the protesters and their supporters know how to manipulate the situation and exploit the police reaction with selective video cuts and accusations. Not saying the cops don't occasionally go overboard but then again we're not the officer or officers in the middle of the situation. Cops should start doing their own videos starting from when the situation starts, showing everything that leads up to any "use of force" and the follow up to minimize the potential for accidental or intentional misinformation release.

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

I trust you can at least admit that your experience is not the universal experience?

Why would they use it, if it is, in fact ineffective and 'not that big a deal.'

I went through tear gas in basic training. I was fine until the drill sergeant noticed I was holding my breath and smacked me one between the shoulder blades. I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. No idiots came out of there mouthing off about how it wasn't "that big a deal."

The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.

Yeah, sign me up. Put me down for waterboarding too, while you're at it.

 

[Amelia]

Lets try having some peaceful protests with no Police around. Lets see how that goes. I'm pretty sure with no Police presence,things will stay peaceful. So whata ya say Big Brother,how bout sitting one out for a change?

I'd be all for a protest with minimal police presence.

And when the protestors stop breaking the law maybe that can happen.



No police is not possible. Police still have a duty to make their regular rounds. But if the protestors would stop breaking the law I'd be 100% behind a minimal presence.

One problem here - these protestors seem bound and determined to break the law.


That seems to be vital to the delivery of their message ... whatever the heck that message is supposed to be.

I said lets try it. Why is it so impossible to fathom a protest with no Police there? Is this how far we've fallen? We can't even imagine having a protest without the State being there to harass and control everyone. This is why i'm very disappointed in most here who call themselves Conservatives. Less Government intrusion in our lives is what we're supposed to be fighting for. Many sure have lost their way.

Because it is impossible to fathom these protestors holding their events in a way which is in keeping with the law.

What part of "they're committing crimes" do you not understand?

Okay. I'm done haggling with you over this. You have made it clear that breaking laws is okay with you and enforcing laws is wrong. I've heard you say it about a dozen times now so I guess it's time for me to accept that you really mean it.

I don't remember actually running up against an anarchist before so hopefully my confusion is understandable.

 

[Ringel05]

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

I trust you can at least admit that your experience is not the universal experience?

Why would they use it, if it is, in fact ineffective and 'not that big a deal.'

I went through tear gas in basic training. I was fine until the drill sergeant noticed I was holding my breath and smacked me one between the shoulder blades. I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. No idiots came out of there mouthing off about how it wasn't "that big a deal."

The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.

Yeah, sign me up. Put me down for waterboarding too, while you're at it.

Whatever. Try reading my followup posts. I went through the tear gas exposure in boot also. Big deal.
I guess you'd rather they use batons, rubber bullets and bean bag shot?

 

[syrenn]

What is the proper method of dealing with people who have repeatedly disobeyed lawful orders to disperse?

Do you think the OWS are intentionally pushing police to the point where the only way the police can enforce the law is to do things which make for "good" anti-cop TV?


Is physically dragging lawbreakers away more appropriate than pepper spray? Some in-the-know have said no, that physically carrying people away comes with its own set of risks and liabilities.

tear gas, pepper spray, batons, bean bags, rubber bullets, water cannons....... they are warned before any of that happens. If they choose to continue and not disperse..... tough shit for them if they get hurt.

If they get violent.... ie...shooting at the police.... i have no issue with the police shooting back with lethal force.

They know what is going to happen....and they are counting on it for sympathy.

 

[Ernie S.]

Let the People protest in peace. Why do the Police always need to be in everyone's face during these protests? These local Governments should order them to back off and get the hell out of the way. They are only instigating violence at this point. Can't the State stay out of our business even for just a day or two? Why do they have to harass the People so much. Can't the People have anything anymore?

It's getting to the point where you feel the Police don't help the People nearly as much as they harass the People. Personally i've had very few Police ever help me in my life. But i have had many Police harass me in my life. And i think many people on this Board have the same story. They seem to always be there to harass you but not there often enough to help you. They're losing the People at this point. The People are turning on them. And they themselves are to blame. Just leave the People alone and be decent. Is that really too much to ask?

When I was a kid, cops harassed me all the time..... because I broke the law. Since I developed an aversion to being beat with a baton in my early twenties, I've not given the police any reason to harass me. Guess what! No more batons!
If the police tell you to move, MOVE! If you refuse a direct order, don't you fucking DARE call the consequences "harassment".

 

[BDBoop]

I haven't seen anything but the posted video but my wife has been following the story. She related that the campus officers told the crowd, on numerous occasions, to disperse but instead the officers were surrounded by the protesters and not allowed to back off.
As for the use of pepper spray being an unnecessary "use of force", I have to laugh, I've been sprayed (all officers are exposed to OC contamination during training) and while its not what I would call fun it's no where near as bad as these protesters are making it out to be.
BTW I'm not a cop, I do very specialized security work that Virginia law required I had to graduate from a mini-police academy to be certified so I had to go through most of what the cops have to experience.

I trust you can at least admit that your experience is not the universal experience?

Why would they use it, if it is, in fact ineffective and 'not that big a deal.'

I went through tear gas in basic training. I was fine until the drill sergeant noticed I was holding my breath and smacked me one between the shoulder blades. I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. No idiots came out of there mouthing off about how it wasn't "that big a deal."

The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.

Yeah, sign me up. Put me down for waterboarding too, while you're at it.

Whatever. Try reading my followup posts. I went through the tear gas exposure in boot also. Big deal.

Once more with feeling? Do the big words work? Do you understand that WE SIGNED UP FOR BOOT CAMP. Therefore. But hell, here we go. I'll even talk slow.

YOUR.

EXPERIENCE.

IS.

NOT.

THE.

UNIVERSAL.

EXPERIENCE.

Americans have the right to peacefully assemble and no. It does NOT say "Until the law takes away that right."

WHY did the UC Davis Chancellor apologize.

Why? Surely you have an answer, since they were so correct in their use of pepper spray on a peaceably assembled student body.

"I'm here to apologize," Katehi said. "I really feel horrible for what happened Friday."

Some students said they were pleased to hear from Katehi, but others in the crowd remained adamant she should resign.

"I don't buy a word of it. She should resign immediately," said Eric Lee, a political science student who was arrested in the Occupy Sacramento protests. He said he would not have let her speak.

"I don't think we should let people who beat us speak," Lee said. "She obviously didn't win hearts and minds."

Read more: Chancellor Katehi apologizes to protesters for UC Davis pepper-spraying - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

 

[paulitician]

Let the People protest in peace. Why do the Police always need to be in everyone's face during these protests? These local Governments should order them to back off and get the hell out of the way. They are only instigating violence at this point. Can't the State stay out of our business even for just a day or two? Why do they have to harass the People so much. Can't the People have anything anymore?

It's getting to the point where you feel the Police don't help the People nearly as much as they harass the People. Personally i've had very few Police ever help me in my life. But i have had many Police harass me in my life. And i think many people on this Board have the same story. They seem to always be there to harass you but not there often enough to help you. They're losing the People at this point. The People are turning on them. And they themselves are to blame. Just leave the People alone and be decent. Is that really too much to ask?

When I was a kid, cops harassed me all the time..... because I broke the law. Since I developed an aversion to being beat with a baton in my early twenties, I've not given the police any reason to harass me. Guess what! No more batons!
If the police tell you to move, MOVE! If you refuse a direct order, don't you fucking DARE call the consequences "harassment".

Sorry,don't like being The Good German. They work for us. It's not the other way around. 'TO PROTECT AND SERVE.' Somewhere along the line they forgot that. So you go ahead and be The Good German but i never will. Fuck em.

 

[Ernie S.]

This was on campus. They weren't doing anything but sitting on the ground. As far as I know, they have a right to sit on the ground on their own campus.

The cops way overreacted.

Their right to sit on the ground ends when they are told to move on. If they were on private property or obstructing others from getting where they had to go, they were sitting in the wrong place.

 

[Amelia]

....

Americans have the right to peacefully assemble and no. It does NOT say "Until the law takes away that right."

WHY did the UC Davis Chancellor apologize.

Why? Surely you have an answer, since they were so correct in their use of pepper spray on a peaceably assembled student body.

"I'm here to apologize," Katehi said. "I really feel horrible for what happened Friday."

Some students said they were pleased to hear from Katehi, but others in the crowd remained adamant she should resign.

"I don't buy a word of it. She should resign immediately," said Eric Lee, a political science student who was arrested in the Occupy Sacramento protests. He said he would not have let her speak.

"I don't think we should let people who beat us speak," Lee said. "She obviously didn't win hearts and minds."

Read more: Chancellor Katehi apologizes to protesters for UC Davis pepper-spraying - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

Politicians apologize when things get hot. And the people who are out in the thick of things making the decisions get thrown under the bus.

That's why I am in favor of first responders having union representation. When they make good faith decisions based on their perception and training, they need someone advocating for them when the politicians are playing CYA and taking the easy way out.

A lot of good people making tough decisions in tricky circumstances would get fired in the heat of the moment without due process because politicians will do whatever it takes to save their jobs.

 

[Ringel05]

I trust you can at least admit that your experience is not the universal experience?

Why would they use it, if it is, in fact ineffective and 'not that big a deal.'

I went through tear gas in basic training. I was fine until the drill sergeant noticed I was holding my breath and smacked me one between the shoulder blades. I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. No idiots came out of there mouthing off about how it wasn't "that big a deal."



Yeah, sign me up. Put me down for waterboarding too, while you're at it.

Whatever. Try reading my followup posts. I went through the tear gas exposure in boot also. Big deal.

Once more with feeling? Do the big words work? Do you understand that WE SIGNED UP FOR BOOT CAMP. Therefore. But hell, here we go. I'll even talk slow.

YOUR.

EXPERIENCE.

IS.

NOT.

THE.

UNIVERSAL.

EXPERIENCE.

Americans have the right to peacefully assemble and no. It does NOT say "Until the law takes away that right."

WHY did the UC Davis Chancellor apologize.

Why? Surely you have an answer, since they were so correct in their use of pepper spray on a peaceably assembled student body.

"I'm here to apologize," Katehi said. "I really feel horrible for what happened Friday."

Some students said they were pleased to hear from Katehi, but others in the crowd remained adamant she should resign.

"I don't buy a word of it. She should resign immediately," said Eric Lee, a political science student who was arrested in the Occupy Sacramento protests. He said he would not have let her speak.

"I don't think we should let people who beat us speak," Lee said. "She obviously didn't win hearts and minds."

Read more: Chancellor Katehi apologizes to protesters for UC Davis pepper-spraying - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee

I'm sorry you cant get past emoting and move towards objectivity. But whatchagonnado?

 

[BDBoop]

I'm sorry you cant get past emoting and move towards objectivity. But whatchagonnado?

You're right. My bad.

Why did she apologize.