What is Secularism?

[MissileMan]

It doesn't deal with hobbies or it would say it deals with hobbies, this is a definition of religion.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

My dictionary has this very definition in it. However, it also includes an example of how it might be used in this context. The example my dictionary uses is "make a religion of a hobby". You are using an alternate definition of religion out of context to suit your argument. For instance, I could argue that the second baseman couldn't have thrown the ball to first base because a ball is a "formal gathering for social dancing".

1. You spoke about meeting places and Priests. I gave examples of where you can go to meet Atheists by giving you addresses to several places where you can get information about their support Groups. You talk of Playboy is a quasifascetious way as if that simply discredited the evidence before your eyes, well it doesn't.


2. You said that Atheists don't attempt to convince others in their belief I showed another site that shows that they do. Your answer to this was to simply ignore that particular site in your post.

I checked out the sites you are talking about. atheist.org had this paragraph in their introduction: "We are not a "religion." The concept of an agency outside of nature with the ability to reach into natural law and control events is supernaturalism, the foundation of any religion. Belief in the existence of that agency is based on faith. An Atheist has no specific belief system. We accept only that which is scientifically verifiable. Since god concepts are unverifiable, we do not accept them." According to manu1959 if they say they aren't a religion, then it must be so.

The atheistvsgod site is a blog...just like this one, except the membership is primarily atheist.

The last site you posted was a listing of what you call support groups.

Not one of these sites would lend itself to an argument that atheism is a religion. In fact, they flatly deny it.
[/QUOTE]

 

[MissileMan]

yep

Well that closes the case for me!

 

[manu1959]

Well that closes the case for me!

why?

 

[MissileMan]

why?

You can't have an intelligent debate with someone who refuses to argue intelligently..."'cause I said so" isn't an intelligent argument.

 

[manu1959]

You can't have an intelligent debate with someone who refuses to argue intelligently..."'cause I said so" isn't an intelligent argument.

i will ignor that you just did what you acuse me of

one of the accepted definitions of religon is as i stated...so if i set of a set of beliefs and follow them by definition i have a religion

 

[manu1959]

You can't have an intelligent debate with someone who refuses to argue intelligently..."'cause I said so" isn't an intelligent argument.

mmmmmm .... this too complicated...religion: "a personal set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices"

personal ... get it

 

[no1tovote4]

My dictionary has this very definition in it. However, it also includes an example of how it might be used in this context. The example my dictionary uses is "make a religion of a hobby". You are using an alternate definition of religion out of context to suit your argument. For instance, I could argue that the second baseman couldn't have thrown the ball to first base because a ball is a "formal gathering for social dancing".

How it might be used doesn't define every usage, that is one example. As I said, my religion doesn't deal with God at all does this mean it isn't a religion?

I checked out the sites you are talking about. atheist.org had this paragraph in their introduction: "We are not a "religion." The concept of an agency outside of nature with the ability to reach into natural law and control events is supernaturalism, the foundation of any religion. Belief in the existence of that agency is based on faith. An Atheist has no specific belief system. We accept only that which is scientifically verifiable. Since god concepts are unverifiable, we do not accept them." According to manu1959 if they say they aren't a religion, then it must be so.

Just saying "we are not a religion" doesn't make it so either. The SCOTUS already decided that case with Secular Humanism defining it as a religion under this very definition. Amazing that they can accept the actual definitions from the dictionary but you cannot. Taking the one example and using it as the only way that it can be used with that definition. That is simply covering your ears and shouting so that nothing can be heard that doesn't match what you want.

The atheistvsgod site is a blog...just like this one, except the membership is primarily atheist.

The last site you posted was a listing of what you call support groups.

Not one of these sites would lend itself to an argument that atheism is a religion. In fact, they flatly deny it.

As I said before flatly denying it while still falling under the definition cleary doesn't make it that way. "I didn't murder him, I just hated him so much I had to kill him." Statements can be made constantly by a group that falls under this definition, it still doesn't make them true.

I can flatly deny many things that are known to be true and that won't make them any more false.

Clearly you are attempting to make the definition of religion to fit what you expect, not what it actually is and while doing so exibiting an amazing degree of stubbornness.

Repeating the same thing about hobbies still doesn't make the actual definition go away, or change the fact that I have shown in every instance how this religion fits in with the actual definition in even your dictionary.

 

[MissileMan]

What's an Aclausian? Someone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus? If so, I guess I am. So yes, I see how you are trying to show that it is a non-belief like atheism is a non-belief. And that it is not a religion per se.

However, atheism still fits the definition for religion: "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". Seems to me that the atheists are quite zealous in their cause to deGod our society because it affects their "sensibilities" or beliefs. And why should our government support one cause or belief over another?

As No1ToVote4 said you are ignoring some of Webster's definitions. You are just picking out the ones you like. He also gave you additional reasons why atheism is considered to be quite similiar to a religion.

OK, start tuning up the crickets. "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". There is an organization with 10's of millions of members. They are very zealous. They spend millions of dollars every year to convert others to their beliefs. They go door to door to spread their word. They use the entire spectrum of media to do the same. They gather throughout the US to meet their leaders, and to listen to their deeds and plans. They have this huge convention where they lay out their principles. Their structure is very organized...they have an office in every county throughout the US. They definitely are a cause!

Are you willing to concede, or are you going to look foolish and argue that Republican is a religion?

 

[dilloduck]

OK, start tuning up the crickets. "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". There is an organization with 10's of millions of members. They are very zealous. They spend millions of dollars every year to convert others to their beliefs. They go door to door to spread their word. They use the entire spectrum of media to do the same. They gather throughout the US to meet their leaders, and to listen to their deeds and plans. They have this huge convention where they lay out their principles. Their structure is very organized...they have an office in every county throughout the US. They definitely are a cause!

Are you willing to concede, or are you going to look foolish and argue that Republican is a religion?

Are you going to argue that political parties should all be banned?

 

[no1tovote4]

OK, start tuning up the crickets. "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". There is an organization with 10's of millions of members. They are very zealous. They spend millions of dollars every year to convert others to their beliefs. They go door to door to spread their word. They use the entire spectrum of media to do the same. They gather throughout the US to meet their leaders, and to listen to their deeds and plans. They have this huge convention where they lay out their principles. Their structure is very organized...they have an office in every county throughout the US. They definitely are a cause!

Are you willing to concede, or are you going to look foolish and argue that Republican is a religion?

It can be to some, just as to some Democrats the Party is a religion as well. And very often among Libertarians, I would say more often than with the major two.

Let me go a little further in explaining my view on this.

There are those that center their lives around this. You know them. Every single time you see them the only thing they talk about is their political views, to them it is the most important part of their reality. They go to every political rally, attempt to convert others, offer tracts and writings to present you with their belief that their Political Party is the answer to all things.

To these people their Political Party is even more important than a Church. They spend no time attempting to convert you to their supposed religion. They might deny their religious fervor to their Party but to them it is definitely a religion.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

My dictionary has this very definition in it. However, it also includes an example of how it might be used in this context. The example my dictionary uses is "make a religion of a hobby". You are using an alternate definition of religion out of context to suit your argument. For instance, I could argue that the second baseman couldn't have thrown the ball to first base because a ball is a "formal gathering for social dancing".

I guess atheism must be a "religious hobby" since they don't have a "god".

Why do they seem to practice it religiously?

Not to mention they try to lay their non-God belief upon the rest of us.

 

[MissileMan]

I guess atheism must be a "religious hobby" since they don't have a "god".

Why do they seem to practice it religiously?

Not to mention they try to lay their non-God belief upon the rest of us.

Let's hear about some of these atheistic practices you speak of. Name some atheistic holidays and ceremonies.

And you neglected to answer whether you believe Republican is a religion or not.

 

[no1tovote4]

Let's hear about some of these atheistic practices you speak of. Name some atheistic holidays and ceremonies.

And you neglected to answer whether you believe Republican is a religion or not.

I did not, it is above. Unless you are only speaking with one person, if that is the case it is best done through PM.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Liberals think that Secularism should replace Christianity as the basis for our society.

No they don't. Most liberals are Christian. They don't think "secularism" should replace "Christianity" in society.

However, many are concerned that conservatives want to replace our SECULAR government with a THEISTIC one.

Christianity has a solid moral base whereas Secularism has none.

That is patently false. Morality and religion are independent of one another. Secular humanists have well grounded morals - and who are you to judge what and whos morals are superior?

Although many of today's secularists might believe in a God or gods, a true Secularist by any definition must be an Atheist.

Absolutely and COMPLETELY False. Atheists are not even classed as "secularists" because the have a definite "belief". Even if you want to class them as secularists, atheists would make up less than 5% of all secularists in North America.

AGNOSTICS are secularists - but when we think of secularism, we mean "non-religious". More below.

An atheist does not believe in God. Isn't Atheism a belief system just as Christianity is a belief system? Why should our government only reflect the belief system of Atheism/Secularism?

Again, atheism and secularism are separate. The government does NOT support atheism, as that would violate the establishment clause, as atheism is a "belief".

If a child should be taught the sciences in school and be taught all about the world around him including history, shouldn't he also be taught about the belief of God? Why should he only be given an Atheistic training?

Science and History are not "Atheistic" training. Science and history are FACTS. Religion on the other hand is NOT fact, but FAITH - quite separate.

Shouldn't he also be taught the existence of God for a well-rounded education?

The existence of god cannot be proven - it is faith and not fact.

Having said that, children should be taught "about" religion, provided that no specific religion is touted as "the true one" - leave that for CHURCH where it BELONGS.

By eliminating any reference to God in our schools a child is being led to believe in the "religion" or belief system of Atheism. Isn't that the Government instituting a preference for one belief system over another? Isn't the omission of God basically a governmental statement? Isn't that essentially establishing Atheism/Secularism as a "government religion" to be pushed upon our children?

The main premise of your argument that "secularism" is "atheism" is false, therefore this concept that the government is somehow pushing the belief of "atheism" is also false.


For the record, north american religious adherents, in order of "popularity":


postdenominational (independent) Christians: 81,834,000
Catholics: 71,749,000
Protestants: 70,350,000
Secularists (non-religious): 29,526,000
Orthodox Christians: 6,458,000
Jews: 6,065,000
Muslims: 4,587,000
Anglicans (Christian): 3,217,000
Buddhists: 2,855,000
Atheists: 1,720,000
Hindus: 1,373,000
Chinese folk religions: 861,000
New Age: 851,000
Baha'is: 813,000


Regards


Andy

 

[freeandfun1]

No they don't. Most liberals are Christian.

Ahem.... BULLSHIT. Stating you are Christian and "being" Christian are two different animals all together.

 

[MissileMan]

Are you going to argue that political parties should all be banned?

Are you wearing polka dot socks?

 

[dilloduck]

Are you wearing polka dot socks?

you peeked dammit !

 

[manu1959]

civil lib,

if you can teach evolution and darwinism, which is atherory not fact with a hugh leap in it ....you can teach creationism....i would rather be informed than indoctrinated

 

[MissileMan]

civil lib,

if you can teach evolution and darwinism, which is atherory not fact with a hugh leap in it ....you can teach creationism....i would rather be informed than indoctrinated

There is a HUGE difference in the amount of evidence that supports the theory of evolution as opposed to the zero evidence that supports creationism. If you come up with a sufficient amount of scientific evidence to support creationism, I'll be at the head of the line to have it added to public school curriculum.

 

[manu1959]

There is a HUGE difference in the amount of evidence that supports the theory of evolution as opposed to the zero evidence that supports creationism. If you come up with a sufficient amount of scientific evidence to support creationism, I'll be at the head of the line to have it added to public school curriculum.

quantity does not an argument make