What Is It About "Obamacare" That Is Going To "Ruin America"?

[Mertex]

Putting government in charge of health care is never a good idea and has never worked.

Government run health care exists in just about every modern first world country but USA. And yes it has worked well in these countries.

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

No, but it's the next best thing, government regulated. Insurance companies can no longer run amok raising premiums willy nilly and dropping people just because they can.

 

[dblack]

Government run health care exists in just about every modern first world country but USA. And yes it has worked well in these countries.

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

No, but it's the next best thing, government regulated. Insurance companies can no longer run amok raising premiums willy nilly and dropping people just because they can.

Heh... right. They just have us all as captive customers. You people are unreal.

 

[jasonnfree]

Putting government in charge of health care is never a good idea and has never worked.

Government run health care exists in just about every modern first world country but USA. And yes it has worked well in these countries.

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

I think it's not irrelevant. Republicans will fight against any health care plan although most all republican politicians have their health care subsidized by we the taxpayers. Betcha for sure that non of these tea baggers that tried to shut down the country on "principle" have opted out of their government sponsored health care plans on "principle" Even Israel has had national health care since it's beginning and USA has subsidized that country greatly.

 

[dblack]

Government run health care exists in just about every modern first world country but USA. And yes it has worked well in these countries.

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

I think it's not irrelevant. Republicans will fight against any health care plan although most all republican politicians have their health care subsidized by we the taxpayers. Betcha for sure that non of these tea baggers that tried to shut down the country on "principle" have opted out of their government sponsored health care plans on "principle" Even Israel has had national health care since it's beginning and USA has subsidized that country greatly.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not really interested in the political shenanigans between Democrats and Republicans. Obamacare is not nationalized health care, so defending it on those terms doesn't apply.

PPACA is a corporatist mandate forcing us to buy insurance from a cartel of insurance companies. It's the worst kind of corporate welfare and sets a horrible precedent.

 

[Steven_R]

Because there is nothing better than the government. The brains behind bureaucratic success stories and models of efficiency like Social Security and food stamps in charge of your health care. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Mertex]

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

No, but it's the next best thing, government regulated. Insurance companies can no longer run amok raising premiums willy nilly and dropping people just because they can.

Heh... right. They just have us all as captive customers. You people are unreal.

They already had us as captive customers. Who do you think was paying for the deadbeats that used the ER and couldn't pay? Santa Claus?

 

[Mertex]

Because there is nothing better than the government. The brains behind bureaucratic success stories and models of efficiency like Social Security and food stamps in charge of your health care. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

You are trying to be sarcastic, but what you are saying is actually true. The insurance companies were having a heyday with people, raising their premiums whenever they pleased and dropping them like flies when they felt they were going to be needing too much medical care - now they can't do that under Obamacare. Why would any sensible person object to that?

 

[The Irish Ram]

I wish I was as optimistic as you are but I see this mess differently.
I find 20,000 pages of fines and taxes to be really objectionable. If this was an insurance issue, the Gov. forcing itself on the insurance system, on our behalf would have been the route to take.

Insurance companies can't drop you now but they can sure charge you what ever exorbitant amount they want. Some companies are charging 400% higher premiums with 20,000 dollar deductibles. It is a win win for the Gov. and the insurance companies.

Gov. stole the money our parents paid into SS and Medicare, then stole our money to pay for our parents benefits, now they are soaking and I mean soaking our children to come up with the money they stole from us.
We had the best healthcare in the world. Now we have doctors that aren't going to get paid, a constant drain on our hospitals through fines, fees and penalties, and the downtown clinic overwhelmed with insured people who can't get care anywhere else.

They didn't come up with 20,000 pages of ways to make our health care better, but line after line of how to profit at the expense of our healthcare.
My daughter had a lung collapse out of the blue. Received wonderful care at a top notch hospital, and when it happened again 2 wks later, she was readmitted. And then it happened a third time and surgery was done. Today that hospital would have been penalized 250,000. for readmitting her. How many people would they need to readmit before they go bankrupt?

What we are left with is, take your welfare health card down to the clinic, stand in line and breathe out of one lung while you wait for your number to be called. What we are about to experience is the DMV of healthcare. My daughter is still in school. She can't afford her present $300. a month premiums, let alone $800. a mo. premiums or money from her measly paycheck garnished to pay her "fine."

But the thing that really pisses me off is that our gov. is sending our children to an obamination of a war where they are losing arms and legs from land mines and our gov. turns around and taxes the crap out of the devices they need just to stand up again. That is disgusting.
A 20,000 page tax drain on us is what this is about. Not concern for our health or the uninsured.

 

[dblack]

Because there is nothing better than the government. The brains behind bureaucratic success stories and models of efficiency like Social Security and food stamps in charge of your health care. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

You are trying to be sarcastic, but what you are saying is actually true. The insurance companies were having a heyday with people, raising their premiums whenever they pleased and dropping them like flies when they felt they were going to be needing too much medical care - now they can't do that under Obamacare. Why would any sensible person object to that?

This argument is utterly perverse. Before ACA insurance companies had exactly no power over us. We could tell them to fuck off and quit playing their rigged game. Many of us were beginning to do just that, to one degree or another, which is why they turned to government to solve their "problem". Now we've given up our right to refuse to do business with the crooked bastards, and for what? A few token regulations a that their lobbyists are already nullifying? The whole thing is a swindle. Democrats should be ashamed.

 

[RoccoR]

dblack, et al,

I'm at the point that I really don't care anymore.

This argument is utterly perverse. Before ACA insurance companies had exactly no power over us. We could tell them to fuck off and quit playing their rigged game. Many of us were beginning to do just that, to one degree or another, which is why they turned to government to solve their "problem". Now we've given up our right to refuse to do business with the crooked bastards, and for what? A few token regulations a that their lobbyists are already nullifying? The whole thing is a swindle. Democrats should be ashamed.

(COMMENT)

I'm pretty much come to the conclusion that Congress (both the House and Senate) is run by a bunch of little children. And that Congress consists of members that are as about as trustworthy as a hungry used-care salesman. I doubt if you could get a synaptic spark out of any 50 members if you rubbed all their heads together at once.

Any group that would purposely harm the nation because they didn't get their way, are scoundrels and domestic enemies; unable to fulfill their oath of office. This is not a disgrace of the Republics or the Democrats, but a disgrace and indictment of the entire institution.

They need to make such legislation, that when Congress (House and Senate) fails to achieve a budget by 1 OCT, then:

Congress is no longer paid as a penalty for its failure; and will not receive backpay for time lost. (And a continuing resolution does not count.) Congress will have no benefits during the period in which no budget is past. If the government were to ever shutdown, the first lights to go out are those to the Capitol where Congress sits and all the associated office buildings.

Additionally, Members of Congress (House and Senate) have become too pompous and need to be reigned-in. There should be legislation that All Members should be subject to the exact same laws as they pass for the citizens of the nation and business. No skirting OSHA, or equal-opportunity and affirmative-action laws, or especially Obamacare --- no special privileges exempting anything. Whatever is good for the goose, is good enough for them. And they need to by a rail-pass for that special little train they have to the Capitol and pay for parking. They have screwed the pooch as far as I'm concerned.

They all need to be brought to heel.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[oldfart]

I'm at the point that I really don't care anymore.

This argument is utterly perverse. Before ACA insurance companies had exactly no power over us. We could tell them to fuck off and quit playing their rigged game. Many of us were beginning to do just that, to one degree or another, which is why they turned to government to solve their "problem". Now we've given up our right to refuse to do business with the crooked bastards, and for what? A few token regulations a that their lobbyists are already nullifying? The whole thing is a swindle. Democrats should be ashamed.

(COMMENT)

I'm pretty much come to the conclusion that Congress (both the House and Senate) is run by a bunch of little children. And that Congress consists of members that are as about as trustworthy as a hungry used-care salesman. I doubt if you could get a synaptic spark out of any 50 members if you rubbed all their heads together at once.

You are being unfair to children and used-car salesmen.

Any group that would purposely harm the nation because they didn't get their way, are scoundrels and domestic enemies; unable to fulfill their oath of office. This is not a disgrace of the Republics or the Democrats, but a disgrace and indictment of the entire institution.

To quote a famous American, "I have seen dog fights that were better organized and less injurious to the participants."

They need to make such legislation, that when Congress (House and Senate) fails to achieve a budget by 1 OCT, then:

Congress is no longer paid as a penalty for its failure; and will not receive backpay for time lost. (And a continuing resolution does not count.) Congress will have no benefits during the period in which no budget is past. If the government were to ever shutdown, the first lights to go out are those to the Capitol where Congress sits and all the associated office buildings.

Additionally, Members of Congress (House and Senate) have become too pompous and need to be reigned-in. There should be legislation that All Members should be subject to the exact same laws as they pass for the citizens of the nation and business. No skirting OSHA, or equal-opportunity and affirmative-action laws, or especially Obamacare --- no special privileges exempting anything. Whatever is good for the goose, is good enough for them. And they need to by a rail-pass for that special little train they have to the Capitol and pay for parking. They have screwed the pooch as far as I'm concerned.

I think the problem is that most of Congress don't care about their compensation after a while. If they are in it for the money, the way to get that is speaking fees and consulting gigs with a few directorships after they are no longer in Congress. We ought to abolish the special perks and exemptions as you proposed, not to punish Congress but because they have inflated egos as it is.

I don't know how to get soft money bribery out of the political system, but it has become a real issue. Good topic for another thread!

 

[Mertex]

I wish I was as optimistic as you are but I see this mess differently.
I find 20,000 pages of fines and taxes to be really objectionable. If this was an insurance issue, the Gov. forcing itself on the insurance system, on our behalf would have been the route to take.

But basically it is. The way it was before, insurance companies could use the pre-existing condition not to sign up someone, could use any excuse to drop them and could raise premiums without having to answer to anyone. In the meantime, people who could afford insurance were not getting it and going to the ER for medical attention. We were picking up the tab (through our taxes) for those people. Now, anyone who can afford it has to buy some or pay a fine - that's fair, because that way I don't have to carry them.

Insurance companies can't drop you now but they can sure charge you what ever exorbitant amount they want. Some companies are charging 400% higher premiums with 20,000 dollar deductibles. It is a win win for the Gov. and the insurance companies.

That is just GOP misinformation being circulated that is erroneous and simply not true. Insurance companies under Obamacare cannot charge you what ever they want. Remember it's called ACA - that means Affordable Healthcare Act. If you want to know the truth, don't relay on your Republican Congressmen to tell you, because they are spreading lies in hopes to confuse people and make a negative impact on the new law.

Costs
Ends Lifetime Limits on Coverage: Lifetime limits on most benefits are banned for all new health insurance plans.
Reviews Premium Increases: Insurance companies must now publicly justify any unreasonable rate hikes.
Helps You Get the Most from Your Premium Dollars: Your premium dollars must be spent primarily on health care – not administrative costs.
About the Law | HHS.gov/healthcare

Gov. stole the money our parents paid into SS and Medicare, then stole our money to pay for our parents benefits, now they are soaking and I mean soaking our children to come up with the money they stole from us.

I don't know where you get all this misinformation - post some links because I think someone is feeding you a line.

We had the best healthcare in the world. Now we have doctors that aren't going to get paid, a constant drain on our hospitals through fines, fees and penalties, and the downtown clinic overwhelmed with insured people who can't get care anywhere else.

That's all just hype being circulated by the GOP, you need to inform yourself of the facts and not rely on right-wing media that is desperate to make Obamacare fail.

They didn't come up with 20,000 pages of ways to make our health care better, but line after line of how to profit at the expense of our healthcare.
My daughter had a lung collapse out of the blue. Received wonderful care at a top notch hospital, and when it happened again 2 wks later, she was readmitted. And then it happened a third time and surgery was done. Today that hospital would have been penalized 250,000. for readmitting her. How many people would they need to readmit before they go bankrupt?

I don't know why you say that the hospital would have been penalized $250k, unless it was determined it was gross negligence, but what you are saying you need to back up with a link, because I don't believe it is true.

What we are left with is, take your welfare health card down to the clinic, stand in line and breathe out of one lung while you wait for your number to be called. What we are about to experience is the DMV of healthcare. My daughter is still in school. She can't afford her present $300. a month premiums, let alone $800. a mo. premiums or money from her measly paycheck garnished to pay her "fine."

Again, I don't know where you get such bizarre information. Most people that are signing up are claiming they are getting more for less - and it hasn't been implemented, so I don't know where you come up with what would be happening now.

But the thing that really pisses me off is that our gov. is sending our children to an obamination of a war where they are losing arms and legs from land mines and our gov. turns around and taxes the crap out of the devices they need just to stand up again. That is disgusting.
A 20,000 page tax drain on us is what this is about. Not concern for our health or the uninsured.

The only war that is going on is Afghanistan war, and you can thank George Bush for that, in fact you can also thank him for the Iraq war - Obama is just cleaning up the mess that George left, and I bet you thought it was great when Bush declared war on a country that didn't do anything to us, but just because he wanted to, lied about the reason and we all are paying for his big fat lie.

 

[Vox]

it is ripping of the middle class for the benefit of the insurance companies.'

and the end result will be lowering the standards of care and substituting the doctors by nurses - for the masses.
The ruling elite will still be treated by doctors.
However, the lowering of the standards of care will hit them, too.
But they don;t know that.
YET.

 

[Steven_R]

Doubtful. The ruling class will always get the pick of the litter when it comes to physicians and equipment and care. We plebs will have to make do with whoever can be found, but the best and brightest will always end up providing for our betters.

 

[Katzndogz]

it is ripping of the middle class for the benefit of the insurance companies.'

and the end result will be lowering the standards of care and substituting the doctors by nurses - for the masses.
The ruling elite will still be treated by doctors.
However, the lowering of the standards of care will hit them, too.
But they don;t know that.
YET.

We should be so lucky as to even have nurses.

We are just witnessing a shortage of medical personnel affecting abortions to the extent that non doctors can perform invasive procedures like abortions. You will live to see the day when non doctors can perform neurosurgery.

There is no benefit to the insurance companies. The whole point of obamacare is to eliminate insurance companies. Insurance companies might be TOLD that they will make a lot of money, not to worry, it's doubtful that many believe it. They have to know what's really happening.

 

[dblack]

it is ripping of the middle class for the benefit of the insurance companies.'....

...
There is no benefit to the insurance companies. The whole point of obamacare is to eliminate insurance companies. Insurance companies might be TOLD that they will make a lot of money, not to worry, it's doubtful that many believe it. They have to know what's really happening.

The funny thing is, this is both the fear of the right, and the hope of the left - and both sides are being hoodwinked. This isn't going to eliminate insurance companies. It will force out smaller competitors, those without sufficient lobbying clout, but the major players (Aetna, Wellpoint, Kaiser) will reap the benefit. Ten years from now the 'market' will be winnowed down to a handful of huge companies colluding with government to secure their profits.

 

[emilynghiem]

Government run health care exists in just about every modern first world country but USA. And yes it has worked well in these countries.

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

No, but it's the next best thing, government regulated. Insurance companies can no longer run amok raising premiums willy nilly and dropping people just because they can.

1. Would you let govt run church run programs that provide
Spiritual healing to the public make everyone pay churches.
No, you would keep the choice free to fund churches or not.
Why force them to buy insurance instead of other choices.
How is this different from imposing beliefs (In insurance as mandatory)
On ppl and punishing ppl with fines for having different beliefs
About the best health care choices (such as free spiritual healing
That cures cancer and cuts costs of treating more ppl than insurance)

2. Note many prolife pppl make similar arguments that less damage would be done to women nd children if abortion were banned. But prochoice constitutionalists like me argue that prevention can be done by free choice and does nit require banning abortion.
Same with forcing laws on insurance. All this reform is better done by free choice
Or else its not fully constitutionl. Spiritual healing is proven to
Work but cant be imposed or regulated by govt, it works by free choice.

when insurance companies testified before Congress
USAA was already providing top services WITHOUT federal laws requiring it
Why not choose companies that provide competitive services

 

[emilynghiem]

it is ripping of the middle class for the benefit of the insurance companies.'....

...
There is no benefit to the insurance companies. The whole point of obamacare is to eliminate insurance companies. Insurance companies might be TOLD that they will make a lot of money, not to worry, it's doubtful that many believe it. They have to know what's really happening.

The funny thing is, this is both the fear of the right, and the hope of the left - and both sides are being hoodwinked. This isn't going to eliminate insurance companies. It will force out smaller competitors, those without sufficient lobbying clout, but the major players (Aetna, Wellpoint, Kaiser) will reap the benefit. Ten years from now the 'market' will be winnowed down to a handful of huge companies colluding with government to secure their profits.

Same old game as both parties exploiting ppls labor and money
Committing political and advertising fraud. media makes billions
On campaigns while solutions go without funds and lost in the fights
That sell rratings. If all members got united and sued to.collect
On failed promises and fraud we could fund our own health care
And pay our taxes directly into business solutions instead

 

[Trajan]

Time and time again, I hear Republican politicians saying how "Obamacare" (i.e., the Affordable Health Care Act) will "ruin the country." They hardly ever say HOW it will "ruin" our country.

So that's my question: precisely what is it about the AHCA that will ruin our country? I would like to hear from those who agree with the objecting Republicans. Tell us specifically what it is about the AHCA that is going to "ruin America."

I think theres plenty of explanations out there "George"....google....


my take is, it will drop the overall net efficiency and level of overall care, access and pricing.

Pricing is problematic now but the gov. always skews the issue, mightily. Their has been no bending of curve ala cost of care etc. for example.

there have been several polls where ion upwards of 70% of folks where satisfied and 'liked' their present care.

In short; in their attempt to deliver access/care etc. to10/20(?) million people, the level of care/access etc. will drop for the larger number, those folks that are satisfied and like their care, the new mean will meet in the middle, that 10/20 million will get care, better I assume since some is better than none (on a normal basis), but, the rest of us will see a drop off, so the overall 'mean' or level of satisfaction etc., will meet in the middle, if you were one of those in that 70%? Tough shit.


Not only will many of them be supporting the new paradigm financially, on a wing and a promise/prayer ( some of which are already being broken) that the gov. cannot possibly predict, but their care/access etc. will drop too in the short term time to come when this kicks in......

 

[Mertex]

Which is irrelevant. ACA isn't government run healthcare..

No, but it's the next best thing, government regulated. Insurance companies can no longer run amok raising premiums willy nilly and dropping people just because they can.

1. Would you let govt run church run programs that provide
Spiritual healing to the public make everyone pay churches.
No, you would keep the choice free to fund churches or not.
Why force them to buy insurance instead of other choices.
How is this different from imposing beliefs (In insurance as mandatory)
On ppl and punishing ppl with fines for having different beliefs
About the best health care choices (such as free spiritual healing
That cures cancer and cuts costs of treating more ppl than insurance)

What other choices? Most people can't afford medical treatment were it not for insurance.
And, we have separation of church and state. The churches need to out of trying to run government, and the government should not try and run churches

2. Note many prolife pppl make similar arguments that less damage would be done to women nd children if abortion were banned. But prochoice constitutionalists like me argue that prevention can be done by free choice and does nit require banning abortion.
Same with forcing laws on insurance. All this reform is better done by free choice
Or else its not fully constitutionl. Spiritual healing is proven to
Work but cant be imposed or regulated by govt, it works by free choice.

Okay, if you say so, but I believe God gave us doctors, and we need to avail ourselves of their expertise.

when insurance companies testified before Congress
USAA was already providing top services WITHOUT federal laws requiring it
Why not choose companies that provide competitive services

Because there are far more companies that don't care to provide top service, they want to make the most money without having to do as much.