Debate Now What does MAGA mean ? Specifically ?

[Seymour Flops]

I call MAGA a sales pitch. Just like I call Build-Back-Better a sales pitch.

If MAGA means Make American Great Again, it means we were once great.

Can somewhat tell me when that was, what made us "great" and when you'll know we've gotten back to that point ?

I contend that people (because I've been cornering them on this topic) don't know what they mean when they say MAGA.

Nobody I've talked to can give me specifics.

One person I talked to said:

Well, in 1960, we didn't have the illegal problem we have now. So I asked what the problem is now (in terms of numbers). Didn't have it. How about 1960...didn't have it. I decided to forego the easy follow up question and move on.

So I am going to say, I think America is great now. We have A LOT of issues, for sure. But I still love living here and am grateful for my freedoms and liberties.

I see MAGA as a sales pitch and an implication that we've lost something (but nobody can tell me what). And I am not so sure American was any greater then than it is today.

Let me know what you think.

Rule #1: Provide specifics.

Rule #2: If you want to argue generalities, you have to be very clear on what they are and the basis for them.

Rule #3: No commentary on the "other side"

America - Meaning the United States of America - was great from the moment of its founding by he Declaration of Independence, and became even greater once the United States Constitution was signed by all States.

In those few decades the people of the former British colonies transformed their nation into one that combined the English respect for legal rights, a welcoming embrace of immigrants who sought freedom, and the natural rights that people had learned that they had through settling a rich but rugged land with little help from government other than the permission of government to do so.

They gave up royalty and nobility and thus made every free man a king who no longer need permission to pursue happiness.

If I faulted the founders for anything, it would be Article II and Article III of the constitution. Sometimes, I think we would be better off with the executive and the judiciary being subordinate to the legislative in a parliamentary system.

That's when America was great, and for many years after. I still believe it is great, but we have been greater, and we are in danger of losing our greatness. Clear and present danger.

If I could change the MAGA slogan, it would be "MASGA." Make America Steadfastly Great Again.

 

[AZGAL]

Before LBJ wrecked the Democratic Party.

It was not LBJ...the Dims are wrecked by a wide open chaotic border and by the continual letter game of LGBTQXYZ...and the right is wrecked by the far right selfish tendencies...and what is for US THE PEOPLE...not sure!

 

[HikerGuy83]

America - Meaning the United States of America - was great from the moment of its founding by he Declaration of Independence, and became even greater once the United States Constitution was signed by all States.

In those few decades the people of the former British colonies transformed their nation into one that combined the English respect for legal rights, a welcoming embrace of immigrants who sought freedom, and the natural rights that people had learned that they had through settling a rich but rugged land with little help from government other than the permission of government to do so.

They gave up royalty and nobility and thus made every free man a king who no longer need permission to pursue happiness.

If I faulted the founders for anything, it would be Article II and Article III of the constitution. Sometimes, I think we would be better off with the executive and the judiciary being subordinate to the legislative in a parliamentary system.

That's when America was great, and for many years after. I still believe it is great, but we have been greater, and we are in danger of losing our greatness. Clear and present danger.

If I could change the MAGA slogan, it would be "MASGA." Make America Steadfastly Great Again.

Thanks.

So:

1. What made it great before.
2. What have we lost.
3. What do we need to get back (or gain).

That is what I am looking for.

As an example....we've brought up the deficit and debt. We are headed for 40 trillion. Unfreakingbelievable.

The democrats don't mind....but MAGA says nothing about it.

I would want MASGA or MAGA to say: Balanced Budget and reduce the debt.....specifically.

 

[AZGAL]

I already linked the article that said food bank lines, but here it is again in case you missed that.

These photos show the staggering food bank lines across America

America's hunger is being captured by photographers across the country.

www.motherjones.com

Time to make an effort at your local community garden. It is time to show appreciation and respect for the Native American culture that is a part of the current great America and the wisdom of respect for our nurturing mother Earth along with the modern amenities.

 

[MarathonMike]

It was not LBJ...the Dims are wrecked by a wide open chaotic border and by the continual letter game of LGBTQXYZ...and the right is wrecked by the far right selfish tendencies...and what is for US THE PEOPLE...not sure!

If you study history you will find that the Democratic Party completely changed trajectory when JFK was killed and LBJ took over. Yes the current regime is the worst that the Democrats have ever produced. Not sure what you mean by "far right selfish tendencies".

 

[Seymour Flops]

Thanks.

So:

1. What made it great before.

What made it great before was that we were a constitutional republic with leadership roles assigned through a democratic process, and laws passed by elected representatives, and that the rights of the individually were enshrined in the same document that laid out the framework for that government.

2. What have we lost.

We have lost the idea of laws being passed by elected representatives, and tranformed into an administrative regulatory state. If you don't believe that Youtube search for congressional hearings and you can see elected representatives questioning heads of administrative agencies about why they are passing regulations that the voters would never approve of, and see those heads of agencies, and even low-level functionaries arrogantly stonewall and obfuscate instead of answering.

We have lost the idea of individual rights and instead transformed into a security state, with the once premier law enforcement agency in the world, the FBI, not turned into an intelligence agency with law enforcement powers that spies on the citizens looking for any activities it would consider against the interests of the administrative state. Youtube search "Congressman asks Wray about catholic church," or "questions Garland about warrantless bank record searches."

3. What do we need to get back (or gain).

We need to shrink the size of government. No government as large and bloated as ours can avoid being turned against the people for long. We need to find out who is controlling the politicians that have allowed this to happen. We will very likely find many foreigners among them.

That is what I am looking for.

As an example....we've brought up the deficit and debt. We are headed for 40 trillion. Unfreakingbelievable.

That is horrible, but that is not stopping America from being Steadfastly Great Again. Rather, the fact that we are not Steadfastly Great is what allows such a monstrous deficit to happen.

The democrats don't mind....but MAGA says nothing about it.

I would want MASGA or MAGA to say: Balanced Budget and reduce the debt.....specifically.

In the sixties, seventies, and most of the eighties, we could have used the power of elections to put politicians in place who would put a stop to or at least slow down the deficit spending that has made our debt so unmanagable. Meanwhile those who find the deficit less of a concern than the need for great spending increases without great tax increases could put politicians in place who would carry that out. It sucks that the tax and spend crowd won, but they won at the polls.

But now the democratic processes of the republic are at risk. It won't be representative government if our votes mean nothing, cancelled out by illegal foreign votes, duplicate votes, absentee ballots not cast by the actual voter, but by "ballot harvesters."

If the Democrat are successful with the lawfare they are employing now, or if that fails and they again get away with dumping thousands of after hours ballots in key states' polling places to keep Trump from winning, then the Republic will be lost.

Who would respect an election like that? Such an election would be like Stormy Daniels. The Democrats like her now, but even they could not say that they respect her.

 

[HikerGuy83]

That is horrible, but that is not stopping America from being Steadfastly Great Again. Rather, the fact that we are not Steadfastly Great is what allows such a monstrous deficit to happen.

Which is another way of saying we'll be great when we are doing things like balancing the budget and reducing our debt.

I agree.

 

[HikerGuy83]

If I faulted the founders for anything, it would be Article II and Article III of the constitution. Sometimes, I think we would be better off with the executive and the judiciary being subordinate to the legislative in a parliamentary system.

Don't agree....because that would allow to many things to happen that should not.

Our current congress is a cluster-. I don't them running ANYTHING.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Which is another way of saying we'll be great when we are doing things like balancing the budget and reducing our debt.

I agree.

I don't agree that this is what I said in another way.

If the current administrative state, with its entrenched bureaucracy and it's intelligence aparatus turned on the purportedly free citizens of this country, while deliberately admitting millions of illegal immigrants who are certain to bring more poverty and less political power to those citizens suddenly realized it had a good thing going for itself that might crumble if the debt becomes unsustainable and cut back on spending while raising taxes in the most reponsible way possible that would not be a step back to greatness. Not directly.

Because, while that would improve the economy, so that typical spending power went up, maybe as much as fifty percent, it would not reduce the power of the entrenched bureacracy at all. They can as easily require tracking devices on all new personal vehicles if we can all afford Dodge Rams as if we are all too broke to buy anything but a Nissan Versa. They can track our communications on the top of the line latest iPhone as easily as on the cheapest Obamaphone. They can send operatives into our churches, or put us on a watch list for using the word "constitution" too much on social media, whether we just got a raise or not.

A balanced budget might somewhat weaken the power of government, but it would allow it to go on indefinitely.

Don't agree....because that would allow to many things to happen that should not.

Our current congress is a cluster-. I don't them running ANYTHING.

Well, you may be right. Anyway, I don't believe that we cannot be great unless we adopt a parliamentary system, so I should not have included it in this debate now thread.

 

[HikerGuy83]

A balanced budget might somewhat weaken the power of government, but it would allow it to go on indefinitely.

That would be just ONE thing.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That would be just ONE thing.

Yes, as a step in the right direction of making America (steadfastly) great again, I agree that a balanced budget would be a good idea.

But what motivation would the entrenched bureacracy have to do that? Remember they are nearly all avid believers in Keynesian economics at whatever level they understand it, including not even thinking of it as economics. Part of that is "in the long run, we are all dead." Our bloated debt is a long-term economic peril. In the short term it allows the worst excesses of the administrative state.

So, we cannot have a balanced budget until we get rid of the administrative state.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

In the sixties, seventies, and most of the eighties, we could have used the power of elections to put politicians in place who would put a stop to or at least slow down the deficit spending that has made our debt so unmanagable

Extending Trump tax cuts would add $4.6 trillion to deficit: CBO

As former U.S. President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans campaign on extending their 2017 tax cuts if elected in November, a government analysis revealed Wednesday that doing so would add $4.6 trillion to the national deficit. When Trump signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act during his...

www.rawstory.com

​

A new CBO report estimates that extending the Trump tax cuts for the next 10 years would add $4.6 trillion to the deficit.\n\nRemember this the next time Republicans propose cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. \n\nThe "party of fiscal responsibility" is full of it.​

NotfooledbyW said: Culture War politics began in the sixties with the ‘silent white Christian majority ’then morphing into ‘family white Christian values’ morphing into Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson’s White Christian Coalition morphing into Phyllis Schlafly endorsing Trump in 2015 in Iowa and now we have Dr James Dobson’s FOCUS on the White Christian Family

This has led to corporations and billionaires having a solid voter base of white Christians who do not vote in their own “working class” self interest on economic issues.

The nation got tax cuts for the wealthy so that white fundamentalist Christians can load government and SCOTUS with moralistic politicians and judges who would force full term gestation on all pregnant women when in power and protect gun freedom as culture war mainstays for the God of Abraham and the billionaires who use HIM. #483
#512

 

[HikerGuy83]

But what motivation would the entrenched bureacracy have to do that? Remember they are nearly all avid believers in Keynesian economics at whatever level they understand it

You give them to much credit.

That, however wrong, would be following a methodology.

Most of them only care about one thing.....themselves.

They whine over Donald Trump, but they are no different when it comes to watching out for number 1.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

They whine over Donald Trump, but they are no different when it comes to watching out for number 1.

Trump is the first president that did not respect the will of the voters in a landslide election who wanted to be rid of him. That was bad enough experiencing all the election was stolen lies and undermining the great American institution of democracy. But then after the election was certified, he attempted to violate the state’s rights to determine who shall be president. Trumo
led a criminal conspiracy to overturn the election by fraud and impose his will over the will of the people. Just because he failed by not getting Mike Pence involved in the fraud it does not make it forgivable less of a crime.

It is a MAGA crime for MAGA by MAGA and against all people who are not MAGA.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Trump is the first president that did not respect the will of the voters in a landslide election who wanted to be rid of him. That was bad enough experiencing all the election was stolen lies and undermining the great American institution of democracy. But then after the election was certified, he attempted to violate the state’s rights to determine who shall be president. Trumo
led a criminal conspiracy to overturn the election by fraud and impose his will over the will of the people. Just because he failed by not getting Mike Pence involved in the fraud it does not make it forgivable less of a crime.

It is a MAGA crime for MAGA by MAGA and against all people who are not MAGA.

/----/ Yeah, sure sparky.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Most of them only care about one thing.....themselves.

Saint Hikerguy should pay attention to the MAGA Party of Trump oligarch class.

​

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U.S. billionaires now have a lower effective tax rate than working-class

U.S. billionaires were found to pay a lower effective tax rate than the working class, highlighting a significant shift in tax burdens.

finbold.com

​

A striking analysis by economist Gabriel Zucman, published in The New York Times, reveals that in 2018, U.S. billionaires paid a lower effective tax rate than the working class, marking a historic shift in tax burdens and igniting calls for urgent tax reforms.​

​

Zucman’s analysis underscores the need to rethink the tax strategy as billionaires increasingly generate income through investment avenues rather than traditional salaries, deepening the tax disparity with middle and lower-income earners.​

​

One of the primary reasons the superrich face lower effective tax rates is their income structure, which is predominantly derived from wealth, such as dividends and capital gains, rather than traditional salaries.​

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The collective wealth of America’s 806 billionaires has reached a record $5.8 trillion,

a figure that has nearly doubled since the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act

We need to find out who is controlling the politicians that have allowed this to happen

Trump controls working class white Christian voters and he can deliver votes favorable to the oligarch class for which they can buy a culture warrior, racial fear mongering populist, white grievance sympathizer, deregulator who will make sure every billionaire will double their wealth every seven years on his watch.

Trump Reportedly Asks Fossil Fuel CEOs For $1 Billion

In exchange, the former president vowed to undo many of President Joe Biden's green energy policies.

www.huffpost.com

Trump reportedly solicited top oil and gas executives to give $1 billion for his campaign to return to the White House, vowing in return to undo many of President Joe Biden’s green energy policies if he is elected in November




$5.8 trillion

• The collective wealth of America’s 806 billionaires has reached a record $5.8 trillion, a figure that has nearly doubled since the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act implemented by Republicans and led by former President Donald Trump.

U.S. Billionaires' Fortunes Soar to $5.8 Trillion Post-Trump ...​

www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/u-s-billionaires-

 

[Cellblock2429]

The collective wealth of America’s 806 billionaires has reached a record $5.8 trillion,

a figure that has nearly doubled since the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act




Trump controls working class white Christian voters and he can deliver votes favorable to the oligarch class for which they can buy a culture warrior, racial fear mongering populist, white grievance sympathizer, deregulator who will make sure every billionaire will double their wealth every seven years on his watch.

Trump Reportedly Asks Fossil Fuel CEOs For $1 Billion

In exchange, the former president vowed to undo many of President Joe Biden's green energy policies.

www.huffpost.com

Trump reportedly solicited top oil and gas executives to give $1 billion for his campaign to return to the White House, vowing in return to undo many of President Joe Biden’s green energy policies if he is elected in November




$5.8 trillion

• The collective wealth of America’s 806 billionaires has reached a record $5.8 trillion, a figure that has nearly doubled since the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act implemented by Republicans and led by former President Donald Trump.

U.S. Billionaires' Fortunes Soar to $5.8 Trillion Post-Trump ...​

www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/u-s-billionaires-

/—-/ So Trump can deliver 30 billionaire votes. He wins in a landslide.
BWHAHAHAHA BWHAHAHAHA

 

[NotfooledbyW]

So Trump can deliver 30 billionaire votes. He wins in a landslide.

No. Trump will deliver you, and millions of white Christian working class Bible Believers who will vote in favor of oil billionaires having Trump in the White House so the oil and other industrialist billionaires can poison the air and water for everybody’s grand children, including Baron Trump’s grand children if he ever has any..

 

[Cellblock2429]

No. Trump will deliver you, and millions of white Christian working class Bible Believers who will vote in favor of oil billionaires having Trump in the White House so the oil and other industrialist billionaires can poison the air and water for everybody’s grand children, including Baron Trump’s grand children if he ever has any..

/——/ What a load of Hillary. How do you twist yourself into a pretzel like that. And can you name any of those oil billionaires? Besides, the majority of billionaires are either RINOs or leftists.