What defines a Conservative?

[Ernie S.]

I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I see government subsidies of corporations maybe a bit different.
Certain sectors of corporate America are essential for our economic and military security. I see justification for incentives to energy producers to develop new sources in developed, mature technologies. I don't see justification for subsidizing alternative energy ideas that haven't proven their viability.
The billions we have spent on electric automobile R&D would have been better spent on public sector infrastructure and tax breaks across the board.
The next energy source, I mean the one that will replace petroleum, will make the people that develop it rich beyond the Rockefellers and Gettys wildest dreams and create trillions in new wealth.
Once, but not until, the technology is mature and proven viable, the government can perhaps invest, maybe in distribution with the taxes it collects on all that new wealth.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Why is this meaningless and subjective term so important? How about focusing on the individual and what he or she believes per the Constitution, instead of seeking to define some political crusader cape?

 

[edthecynic]

Many who post here regularly consider themselves conservatives and it seems they do so without giving much thought to the meaning of the word. Most seem to carry this label because they consider those who hold liberal or progressive ideas as anathema, lacking 'true' American values and a threat to the established order.

Without defining themselves vis a vis liberal or progressive, what beliefs define a conservative of today?

[I'm old enough to remember the "radical chic"; persons who wore the clothing and accouterments of the 'hip' but did so out of a need to fit in and garner attention. The "radical chic" had little understanding of history and were mostly focused on their own superficial needs. I find this to be the case for many who post here - the conservative chic.]

Your thoughts.

A Conservative is someone who knows Obama lied about Benghazi

"Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid."
- Kin Hubbard

 

[chikenwing]

LOL, Let me help, since the conservative base seems to have no idea how to express nor any inclination to support their 'beliefs'.

The contemporary 'conservative' isn't for very much, s/he is mostly against. They are mostly Republicans hiding from the record of George W. Bush, hence claiming to be independent conservatives.

They oppose liberals, progressives, gays, lesbians, unions, the working poor, minorities, health care reform, all forms of taxes, the RINO (defined as any non-Democrat who questions Republican Dogma***), immigrants, foreign aid, Islam, Public Education, Public Transportation, renewable energy, i.e. wind and solar and geothermal, electric cars, aid to communities who suffer earthquake, flood, tornado, etc., Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, all Democrats and in particular President Obama, universal suffrage, Stare Decisis, the ERA (Equal Rights for Women), Gun Controls, contraception, abortion, and Government.

*** 'conservative' dogma includes all of the above and the daily talking point issued by the far right power elite. The current 'issue' is Benghazi, notice how the cause of the day changes over time. It has dozens of times during the course of President Obama's Administration. Each daily talking point - some last weeks or months - are broadcast over the TV, Radio and in Print and echoed by the hysterical far right wing who infect this message board.

Discuss.

Just saw this thread since someone bumped it.

It looks like it could be an excellent discussion unfortunately I expect it will very quickly end up to be nothing more than name calling. I wish we could have this kind of a discussion about liberals and libertarians as well, but again they will just end up being name calling.

First, let me admit, when George W. Bush was elected the first time, I was a Republican. I remained a Republican until his fifth year in the Oval Office. I will admit, I am running FROM the "conservatism" of Bush and his gang of goons. I do not consider them to be conservative by any means.

Let me also state that I consider myself to be closer to the term "conservative" than I do "liberal". To me a social conservative is a compassionate individual who not only cares for the needy but honestly wants to do what is best for the needy. The difference between the true conservative and the liberal is not in the goal but in the means of achieving said goal.

Let me hit some of your points on what we conservatives oppose:

1) Liberals - I do not oppose liberals although there are quite a few liberals on this site that I don't like because of the way they act towards others. Then again, the same goes for quite a few conservatives. I disagree with many liberals on many points and I agree with them on other points. Liberals are not evil nor are they always wrong and sometimes they are right and wrong on certain issues just as conservatives are. It is not liberals that I oppose... it is extremists from both sides.

2) Progressives - well, how do YOU define progressive? To me the progressive is the extreme version of the liberal as the Neocon is the extreme version of the conservative. I do oppose progressives when they are defined in such a manner.

3) Gays - I do not oppose gays. I do oppose fanatical gays who want to force everyone to accept them. Although, I personally believe homosexuality is a sin, I do not believe the government has the right to interpose my beliefs upon the homosexual community so long as that community is not hurting other people.

I'll skip lesbians since they are the same as "gays".

4) Unions - I do oppose today's unions. Mostly because I believe they are now being run by corrupt individuals who are no different than today's politicians and lobbyists. Unions had their place in our land and frankly those of us who were not born with a silver spoon in our mouths owe a hell of a lot to the unions of the past.

5) The Working Poor - I am not opposed to the working poor or the non-working poor. Then again, I do not think that it is right to confiscate the wealth of those who are not poor to give a free ride to the poor. I support welfare, unemployment and social security although I think all three organizations need major overhauls and could actually aid the poor if they weren't governed by our corrupt politicians.

6) Health Care Reform - we need it desperately. But, Obamacare is one of those programs that will do more to hurt the poor than it does good. This country can't afford the endless regulations and deficit that will follow. Bring on true Health Care Reform!

7) All Form of Taxes - I don't know how to respond to this. Me personally, I think we should raise taxes in order to improve the financial condition of the U.S. But then I also think we should cut spending too.

8) RINO - that is just a term to explain that just because someone calls themselves a Republican it does not mean that they are really a Republican. Means nothing. A person is not defined by the political party they choose to identify with. Unfortunately, there is really not a lot of difference between the two parties any longer. Both are corrupt. Beyond that there is little to say.

9) Immigrants - Immigration is a political tool used to divide and conquer our citizens. I support increased immigration. The only reason illegals come to the U.S. is because we pay them to come here. We make it worth their while. I think we need to change our immigration laws to allow people who come here because we invite them with higher wages than they can make at home. I do not support amnesty. I think that is rewarding people for breaking the law.

10) Foreign Aid - lot to talk about here. It disgusts me that we provide foreign aid to nations that hate us and would sooner nuke us than allow us to come visit their "holy lands". I have no problem providing humanitarian aid. However, let's cut to the chase here, we are in a financial crisis ourselves. It is time to cut or eliminate foreign aid until such a time as we are on solid ground again. Those who we support don't like that idea... tough shit.

11) Public Education - not opposed to it at all, but I will say the quality we provide today... well, it just plain sucks and it is not getting better.

12) Public Transportation - Okay you got me! I oppose public transportation. I hate buses with a passion. County buses are a road hazard in that they stop without warning in the middle of the road and pull out into traffic expecting other drivers to yield at all times. Arrogant is the only way I can explain the way I see them and I have this thing against people who I view as arrogant. Probably one of the reasons I don't like myself.

13) Renewable Energy - I don't know where you come up with this one. The only person I can name that was actually against renewable energy was Ted Kennedy. He didn't like the idea of windmills in his "backyard". Don't even try to tell me he was a conservative!

14) Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc... - I don't think most conservatives are opposed to the goals of these programs. What I think we are opposed to is the way the government runs it and the fact that so little of the funds provided for these programs end up assisting the poor rather than running the government. In regards to Social Security, I honestly think we would do better by our retirees if we had encouraged, and yes I will say it, required them to invest for their own retirements. I truly believe the conservative mantra "mend it don't end it".

15) President Obama - and here I thought it was he who was opposed to me rather than the other way around. He is just another politician. As arrogant and corrupt as all the others. Yeah, I am opposed to him, but had I not wanted to cast a protest vote, I would have voted for him over the arrogant opponent he ran against last year.

16) Universal Suffrage and Stare Decisis - Not at all opposed to universal suffrage. As for Stare Decisis, I do oppose that. The idea that we have to accept something that is wrong, Roe v. Wade for instance, just because it was decided in the past is ludicrous. Should we still hold slaves simply because slavery was found to be legal before the civil war? No, we should always allow for future changes.

16) The ERA - I'm not opposed to equal rights for women. I do not think we should even have to discuss the issue. But, I am not one who likes things thrown in my face that I had nothing to do with. For the same reason, I oppose the idea of reparations for slavery. Life is not fair. I'm sorry. I have not treated women differently than I have treated other men. Quit throwing that crap in my face.

17) Gun Controls - I'm not opposed to gun control. I am opposed to the latest attempt by the Democrats in Congress to push universal background checks because they will do nothing at all to reduce the chance of a criminal who wants to commit a heinous crime from doing so. Either the psychopath will have not been caught in a crime before and will be able to buy weapons legally or they will know how to get weapons on the street illegally. Either way, their victims will die, but by gosh, those Democrats will have made certain that law abiding citizens will have paid that tax (the fees for the background check) in order to own their guns. I differ from a lot of my conservative peers on this. I see no problem with gun control. I see a problem with instituting stupid laws that don't do jack shit.

18) Contraception - again not opposed to it at all, although, I do oppose middle schools and high schools giving free condoms to students. That is not something that I think public education should be doing.

19) Abortion - Yes, I defend the life of both the mother AND the baby she carries... so shoot me!

20) Government - I'm not opposed to government at all. I don't think we can live as a free society without it. I am opposed to the career politicians we have today. I think our government should be much smaller and smarter. The corruption in Washington is something I believe we should all be opposed to, but not our government.

What I wish is that intelligent liberals like you would understand that neither side is right about all things and that we need to work together to solve our problems not against each other.

Thanks for the thread. This post took longer than I thought to write. I suppose by now the thread has already downgraded to the name calling.

Immie

Rational and balanced points of view,I myself might be a click or two more to the right on Guns.But with you on everything else but a vote for Obama,I saw him for what he is the first time around,just another slick ambitious politician,and he has done little to change that,but has in fact proven me right time and time again.

Term limits and a balanced budget amendment would go a long way to fixing some problems.

 

[Immanuel]

LOL, Let me help, since the conservative base seems to have no idea how to express nor any inclination to support their 'beliefs'.

The contemporary 'conservative' isn't for very much, s/he is mostly against. They are mostly Republicans hiding from the record of George W. Bush, hence claiming to be independent conservatives.

They oppose liberals, progressives, gays, lesbians, unions, the working poor, minorities, health care reform, all forms of taxes, the RINO (defined as any non-Democrat who questions Republican Dogma***), immigrants, foreign aid, Islam, Public Education, Public Transportation, renewable energy, i.e. wind and solar and geothermal, electric cars, aid to communities who suffer earthquake, flood, tornado, etc., Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, all Democrats and in particular President Obama, universal suffrage, Stare Decisis, the ERA (Equal Rights for Women), Gun Controls, contraception, abortion, and Government.

*** 'conservative' dogma includes all of the above and the daily talking point issued by the far right power elite. The current 'issue' is Benghazi, notice how the cause of the day changes over time. It has dozens of times during the course of President Obama's Administration. Each daily talking point - some last weeks or months - are broadcast over the TV, Radio and in Print and echoed by the hysterical far right wing who infect this message board.

Discuss.

Just saw this thread since someone bumped it.

It looks like it could be an excellent discussion unfortunately I expect it will very quickly end up to be nothing more than name calling. I wish we could have this kind of a discussion about liberals and libertarians as well, but again they will just end up being name calling.

First, let me admit, when George W. Bush was elected the first time, I was a Republican. I remained a Republican until his fifth year in the Oval Office. I will admit, I am running FROM the "conservatism" of Bush and his gang of goons. I do not consider them to be conservative by any means.

Let me also state that I consider myself to be closer to the term "conservative" than I do "liberal". To me a social conservative is a compassionate individual who not only cares for the needy but honestly wants to do what is best for the needy. The difference between the true conservative and the liberal is not in the goal but in the means of achieving said goal.

Let me hit some of your points on what we conservatives oppose:

1) Liberals - I do not oppose liberals although there are quite a few liberals on this site that I don't like because of the way they act towards others. Then again, the same goes for quite a few conservatives. I disagree with many liberals on many points and I agree with them on other points. Liberals are not evil nor are they always wrong and sometimes they are right and wrong on certain issues just as conservatives are. It is not liberals that I oppose... it is extremists from both sides.

2) Progressives - well, how do YOU define progressive? To me the progressive is the extreme version of the liberal as the Neocon is the extreme version of the conservative. I do oppose progressives when they are defined in such a manner.

3) Gays - I do not oppose gays. I do oppose fanatical gays who want to force everyone to accept them. Although, I personally believe homosexuality is a sin, I do not believe the government has the right to interpose my beliefs upon the homosexual community so long as that community is not hurting other people.

I'll skip lesbians since they are the same as "gays".

4) Unions - I do oppose today's unions. Mostly because I believe they are now being run by corrupt individuals who are no different than today's politicians and lobbyists. Unions had their place in our land and frankly those of us who were not born with a silver spoon in our mouths owe a hell of a lot to the unions of the past.

5) The Working Poor - I am not opposed to the working poor or the non-working poor. Then again, I do not think that it is right to confiscate the wealth of those who are not poor to give a free ride to the poor. I support welfare, unemployment and social security although I think all three organizations need major overhauls and could actually aid the poor if they weren't governed by our corrupt politicians.

6) Health Care Reform - we need it desperately. But, Obamacare is one of those programs that will do more to hurt the poor than it does good. This country can't afford the endless regulations and deficit that will follow. Bring on true Health Care Reform!

7) All Form of Taxes - I don't know how to respond to this. Me personally, I think we should raise taxes in order to improve the financial condition of the U.S. But then I also think we should cut spending too.

8) RINO - that is just a term to explain that just because someone calls themselves a Republican it does not mean that they are really a Republican. Means nothing. A person is not defined by the political party they choose to identify with. Unfortunately, there is really not a lot of difference between the two parties any longer. Both are corrupt. Beyond that there is little to say.

9) Immigrants - Immigration is a political tool used to divide and conquer our citizens. I support increased immigration. The only reason illegals come to the U.S. is because we pay them to come here. We make it worth their while. I think we need to change our immigration laws to allow people who come here because we invite them with higher wages than they can make at home. I do not support amnesty. I think that is rewarding people for breaking the law.

10) Foreign Aid - lot to talk about here. It disgusts me that we provide foreign aid to nations that hate us and would sooner nuke us than allow us to come visit their "holy lands". I have no problem providing humanitarian aid. However, let's cut to the chase here, we are in a financial crisis ourselves. It is time to cut or eliminate foreign aid until such a time as we are on solid ground again. Those who we support don't like that idea... tough shit.

11) Public Education - not opposed to it at all, but I will say the quality we provide today... well, it just plain sucks and it is not getting better.

12) Public Transportation - Okay you got me! I oppose public transportation. I hate buses with a passion. County buses are a road hazard in that they stop without warning in the middle of the road and pull out into traffic expecting other drivers to yield at all times. Arrogant is the only way I can explain the way I see them and I have this thing against people who I view as arrogant. Probably one of the reasons I don't like myself.

13) Renewable Energy - I don't know where you come up with this one. The only person I can name that was actually against renewable energy was Ted Kennedy. He didn't like the idea of windmills in his "backyard". Don't even try to tell me he was a conservative!

14) Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc... - I don't think most conservatives are opposed to the goals of these programs. What I think we are opposed to is the way the government runs it and the fact that so little of the funds provided for these programs end up assisting the poor rather than running the government. In regards to Social Security, I honestly think we would do better by our retirees if we had encouraged, and yes I will say it, required them to invest for their own retirements. I truly believe the conservative mantra "mend it don't end it".

15) President Obama - and here I thought it was he who was opposed to me rather than the other way around. He is just another politician. As arrogant and corrupt as all the others. Yeah, I am opposed to him, but had I not wanted to cast a protest vote, I would have voted for him over the arrogant opponent he ran against last year.

16) Universal Suffrage and Stare Decisis - Not at all opposed to universal suffrage. As for Stare Decisis, I do oppose that. The idea that we have to accept something that is wrong, Roe v. Wade for instance, just because it was decided in the past is ludicrous. Should we still hold slaves simply because slavery was found to be legal before the civil war? No, we should always allow for future changes.

16) The ERA - I'm not opposed to equal rights for women. I do not think we should even have to discuss the issue. But, I am not one who likes things thrown in my face that I had nothing to do with. For the same reason, I oppose the idea of reparations for slavery. Life is not fair. I'm sorry. I have not treated women differently than I have treated other men. Quit throwing that crap in my face.

17) Gun Controls - I'm not opposed to gun control. I am opposed to the latest attempt by the Democrats in Congress to push universal background checks because they will do nothing at all to reduce the chance of a criminal who wants to commit a heinous crime from doing so. Either the psychopath will have not been caught in a crime before and will be able to buy weapons legally or they will know how to get weapons on the street illegally. Either way, their victims will die, but by gosh, those Democrats will have made certain that law abiding citizens will have paid that tax (the fees for the background check) in order to own their guns. I differ from a lot of my conservative peers on this. I see no problem with gun control. I see a problem with instituting stupid laws that don't do jack shit.

18) Contraception - again not opposed to it at all, although, I do oppose middle schools and high schools giving free condoms to students. That is not something that I think public education should be doing.

19) Abortion - Yes, I defend the life of both the mother AND the baby she carries... so shoot me!

20) Government - I'm not opposed to government at all. I don't think we can live as a free society without it. I am opposed to the career politicians we have today. I think our government should be much smaller and smarter. The corruption in Washington is something I believe we should all be opposed to, but not our government.

What I wish is that intelligent liberals like you would understand that neither side is right about all things and that we need to work together to solve our problems not against each other.

Thanks for the thread. This post took longer than I thought to write. I suppose by now the thread has already downgraded to the name calling.

Immie

Rational and balanced points of view,I myself might be a click or two more to the right on Guns.But with you on everything else but a vote for Obama,I saw him for what he is the first time around,just another slick ambitious politician,and he has done little to change that,but has in fact proven me right time and time again.

Term limits and a balanced budget amendment would go a long way to fixing some problems.

Just for the record, I didn't vote for Obama the first time around, but neither did I vote for McCain. I saw the same thing with Obama that you did although last year I really disliked Romney. Romney was just another damned elitist much like Kerry.

As far as I am concerned, me casting a vote for either party in the near future is not likely to happen.

Immie

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Many who post here regularly consider themselves conservatives and it seems they do so without giving much thought to the meaning of the word. Most seem to carry this label because they consider those who hold liberal or progressive ideas as anathema, lacking 'true' American values and a threat to the established order.

Without defining themselves vis a vis liberal or progressive, what beliefs define a conservative of today?

[I'm old enough to remember the "radical chic"; persons who wore the clothing and accouterments of the 'hip' but did so out of a need to fit in and garner attention. The "radical chic" had little understanding of history and were mostly focused on their own superficial needs. I find this to be the case for many who post here - the conservative chic.]

Your thoughts.

A Conservative is someone who knows Obama lied about Benghazi

"Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid."
- Kin Hubbard

Liberals think they are smart . -- Liability

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Progressives have beliefs, they believe everything Obama tells them

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Wry Catcher]

Don't bitch about what you don't have, and don't covet what others do have.
That's pretty much how I boil it down. It's how I was raised and it's how I've raised my children.

Huh, one of your better posts, not on topic directly, but one which is thought provoking.

Liberals constantly bitch about what they lack, especially when compared to what others do have. And they constantly bemoan their travails with respect to the higher echelons of society.

There exists "place" and also "worth" for those who seek it. No matter the common denominator.

You eat shit, or you die. Take your pick.

Not all liberals "constantly bitch about what they lack" and not all conservatives are callous and greedy. The Hollywood Elite, always characterized as 'liberal' don't bitch about what THEY don't have, many support politics which aid those who, for myriad reasons, are uable to achieve the American Dream.

 

[Dot Com]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html?_r=0

"Epistemic Closure" is still appropriate:

referring to outlets like Fox News and National Review and to talk-show stars like Rush Limbaugh, Mark R. Levin and Glenn Beck — have “become worryingly untethered from reality as the impetus to satisfy the demand for red meat overtakes any motivation to report accurately.”

many conservatives have developed a distorted sense of priorities and a tendency to engage in fantasy, like the belief that President Obama was not born in the United States or that the health care bill proposed establishing “death panels.”

 

[Mr. H.]

Huh, one of your better posts, not on topic directly, but one which is thought provoking.

Liberals constantly bitch about what they lack, especially when compared to what others do have. And they constantly bemoan their travails with respect to the higher echelons of society.

There exists "place" and also "worth" for those who seek it. No matter the common denominator.

You eat shit, or you die. Take your pick.

Not all liberals "constantly bitch about what they lack" and not all conservatives are callous and greedy. The Hollywood Elite, always characterized as 'liberal' don't bitch about what THEY don't have, many support politics which aid those who, for myriad reasons, are uable to achieve the American Dream.

Fair 'nuff.

Hollywood Elite are in their own world, and quite hypocritical. They can support causes without bashing Conservative views, but the two most often go hand-in-hand.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Soon conservatives across the board jumped into the debate. Jim Manzi, a contributing editor at National Review, wrote that Mr. Levin’s best seller, “Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto” (Threshold Editions) was “awful,” and called the section on global warming a case for “willful ignorance,” and “an almost perfect example of epistemic closure.” Megan McArdle, an editor at The Atlantic, conceded that “conservatives are often voluntarily putting themselves in the same cocoon.”

From the link by Dot.Com.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Introspection and critical analysis of one's beliefs is both a sign of intelligence and courage.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Willful ignorance and fear of cognitive dissonance are signs of low intelligence and low self esteem.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Replying to your own posts is a sign that your "ideas" generate boredom and a total lack of enthusiasm

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

What defines a conservative?

Burke to IKE [real] conservatives

1. Support status quo, slow change, government is good
2. Natural heirarchy = God's order = wealth is also goodness
3. US conservatives before Reagan controlled debt, spending, kept the rabble in their place using as little force as possible
4. Favored education, opportunity, regulated competition
Examples: Coolidge and IKE supported wages and hours legislation, opposed child labor, verbally supported wartime taxes and economic controls, plus favored safety measures in factories, and worker representation on corporate boards.​

Today's [fake] conservatives:

1. Spend, spend, spend while lying about it. [Reagan tripled debt, Junebug doubled it.]
2. Against small business, for huge corporations [see: Reagan, Junebug].
3. For big government while convincing white trash government is the problem [see: Reagan, Junebug]
4. Support open borders, foreign labor over America [see: Reagan's pardon of illegals, Bush's expansion of open borders]
Examples: Reagan economy looked pretty good. You too can do this. All you have to do is borrow a ton of money and live off of it until someone makes you quit [see: 2008 for working class Americans]. Junebug economy never looked good. This guy was a dumb fucking mama's boy sent to Washington specifically to fuck America's working classes and he did a pretty good job of it.
​

Overarching question: What happened?

The Faustian bargain with social conservatives, Christian fundamentalists, and the radical fiscal right.

Exactly. All that is left of a once honorable party is the name and a rotting corpse.

 

[Immanuel]

What defines a conservative?

Burke to IKE [real] conservatives

1. Support status quo, slow change, government is good
2. Natural heirarchy = God's order = wealth is also goodness
3. US conservatives before Reagan controlled debt, spending, kept the rabble in their place using as little force as possible
4. Favored education, opportunity, regulated competition
Examples: Coolidge and IKE supported wages and hours legislation, opposed child labor, verbally supported wartime taxes and economic controls, plus favored safety measures in factories, and worker representation on corporate boards.​

Today's [fake] conservatives:

1. Spend, spend, spend while lying about it. [Reagan tripled debt, Junebug doubled it.]
2. Against small business, for huge corporations [see: Reagan, Junebug].
3. For big government while convincing white trash government is the problem [see: Reagan, Junebug]
4. Support open borders, foreign labor over America [see: Reagan's pardon of illegals, Bush's expansion of open borders]
Examples: Reagan economy looked pretty good. You too can do this. All you have to do is borrow a ton of money and live off of it until someone makes you quit [see: 2008 for working class Americans]. Junebug economy never looked good. This guy was a dumb fucking mama's boy sent to Washington specifically to fuck America's working classes and he did a pretty good job of it.
​

Overarching question: What happened?

The Faustian bargain with social conservatives, Christian fundamentalists, and the radical fiscal right.

Exactly. All that is left of a once honorable party is the name and a rotting corpse.

There are no honorable parties remaining in America.

Immie