Watching Maine today.

[stevecox]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

Well, damn.

 

[Sunni Man]

I didn't know Maine had so many queers in their state.

I just thought they were mostly into incest and bestiality

 

[xotoxi]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

I voted absentee last week.

that should have stopped the phone calls for you, I'd imagine.

Actually, I never got any phone calls. But I wouldn't have answered them anyway.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Pontificating? LOL

Yes, I will be glad to. The Yes on H8 crowd LIED about legal gay marriage affecting what when on in churches. The Yes on H8 crowd LIED about legal gay marriage affecting wha what taught in schools. The Yes on H8 crowd LIED about Prop H8 protecting children.



IF the religious right is doing the same dog and pony show in Maine as it did in California, there will be lies....and lots of them.

I didn't pay attention to Cali much either but I am curious on a few things:

1) How can making gay marriage legal affect what goes on inside a church as it is a private entity seperated from the state?

Exactly. But that did not stop the Yes on H8 crowd from making that assertion in their ads.

2) How does making Gay Marriage legal affect school cirriculum? I think schools will push for an open attitude toward gays regardless of the status of gay marriage

True...the Big Lie was that Prop H8 would somehow protect school children...when there is not one word in it about schools or children.

I dont get it. I support civil unions and non-church marriages for gay people so maybe thats why I'm confused.

It's all about keeping gay people as second class citizens legally.

And people wonder why i dont classify myself as a republican/conservative even if I am conservative on many issues (obviously gay marriage isn't one of those issues but still)

 

[bodecea]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

I hear the bolded part a lot....When I do, I ask how many churches have been successfully sued and FORCED to perform interracial marriages and/or interfaith marriages. That's usually when the subject gets changed, but not by me.

 

[xotoxi]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

I hear the bolded part a lot....When I do, I ask how many churches have been successfully sued and FORCED to perform interracial marriages and/or interfaith marriages. That's usually when the subject gets changed, but not by me.

But that is friggin' insane!

If that was the case, then a Catholic who is not allowed to marry a non-converted Jew in the catholic church could sue.

I think that a court would immediately say separation between church and state and throw it out.

 

[Luissa]

I hope the pro-gay marriage people don't take this vote for granted like they did in CA last year. Despite their so-called religion based trappings, the Opposition will not hesitate to lie, lie and lie some more.

we are voting on domestic partnership today! Of course some group out of Colorada has been paying for ads saying that if this passes they will be teaching our children about homosexuals in school next. Of course they forget to mention that it allows domestic partnership for senior citizens also or anyone.
I need to go turn in my ballot.

 

[Luissa]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

Have you heard who is paying for the ads? I wonder if it is the same group out of Colorado Springs that is paying for the ones here?

 

[bodecea]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

Have you heard who is paying for the ads? I wonder if it is the same group out of Colorado Springs that is paying for the ones here?

When Prop H8 was on the ballot here, we got a LOT of money out of Utah (Mormons) and the Knights of Columbus (Catholics)....not to mention a lot of the Mega Box Churches around here.

 

[Tech_Esq]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

I hear the bolded part a lot....When I do, I ask how many churches have been successfully sued and FORCED to perform interracial marriages and/or interfaith marriages. That's usually when the subject gets changed, but not by me.

I'm somewhat ambivalent on the specific topic. While I support providing equal rights to gays, I'm not excited about calling it "marriage." In my opinion, the state did not create the institution of marriage and therefore it has no right to expand its definition. The definition of marriage lies with the institution that created it (the church). The state recognized what existed outside of it and built a whole series of benefits and recognitions around that understanding.

I think we've probably reached the point in our country that we need to go the way the French have. There should be a civil union for "state purposes" and a marriage in a church for those who care about such things.

On the issue about the government giving the right to marry to gay and the effect that might have on churches, I don't see this as a case of whether churches will sue necessarily. What I see is that gay groups will use the fact of recognized state marriage as a cudgel to beat the churches with until the churches are forced to allow it. Think of single sex clubs or single race country clubs. There might be a suit here or there, but I would think protest would be more common.

 

[Tech_Esq]

In DC the question is before the city council. It is the Black churches that are out in force demonstrating against gay marriage.

 

[stevecox]

I hear the bolded part a lot....When I do, I ask how many churches have been successfully sued and FORCED to perform interracial marriages and/or interfaith marriages. That's usually when the subject gets changed, but not by me.

No offense, but that's a dumbass question. How many churches have you heard refuse to perform those ceremonies in the first place? Second, there's an actual constitutional amendment protecting religion. That's not what people are talking about. They're worried that once gay marriage becomes the law, the courts will find that it is discriminatory to not perform a same-sex marriage, since even pastors have to be ordained by the state in order to solemnize them. The reason the "gay marriage is a threat to religious freedom" argument persists is because people don't trust gay marriage advocates to truly leave them the fuck alone after they get what they want, nor do they trust any governing body or court of law that would force it on them without a vote of the people.

 

[Luissa]

A few points:


the anti-gay forces (yes on question one) here have tried to make the entire campaign about school curriculum, claiming that if gay marriage is legal that the law will force schools to teach students about gay marriage. They have also said that the law will bring lawsuits on churches who that refuse to perform gay marriage. Our attorney general has come out and called both of those claims totally false.

The pro-gay marriage (no on question one) crowd is REALLY well organized this time. This morning at 7:30, a volunteer knocked on my door, knew my name, knew that I was going to vote their way, and urged me to vote, and offered me a ride to the polls if I needed one.

My wife and I both voted on our way to work... and voted no.

Have you heard who is paying for the ads? I wonder if it is the same group out of Colorado Springs that is paying for the ones here?

When Prop H8 was on the ballot here, we got a LOT of money out of Utah (Mormons) and the Knights of Columbus (Catholics)....not to mention a lot of the Mega Box Churches around here.

they had children picketing the other day on a busy corner downtown! I think they should maybe think about their actions before trying to control someone else.
I have just heard the one ad out of colorado springs but doesn't mean there are more out there, we also have a group from here paying for a lot of signs and ads. Plus I am on the east side of the state that is more conservative, they might not think they have to advertise so much here. Seattle and the west side could be a different story but hopefully they carry us and pass Ref 71.

 

[bodecea]

I hear the bolded part a lot....When I do, I ask how many churches have been successfully sued and FORCED to perform interracial marriages and/or interfaith marriages. That's usually when the subject gets changed, but not by me.

No offense, but that's a dumbass question. How many churches have you heard refuse to perform those ceremonies in the first place? [/qutoe]

Lots, particularly interfaith marriage. The Catholic Church refuses to marry people all the time.

Second, there's actual legislation protecting religion. That's not what people are talking about. They're worried that once gay marriage becomes the law, the courts will find that it is discriminatory to not perform a same-sex marriage, since even pastors have to be ordained by the state in order to solemnize them.

Indeed they are licensed... but that is so they can sign legal paperwork. Their first loyalty and priority has always been to their faith and their diocese. Do you think any state has legally "punished" a minister for not marrying an interracial or interfaith couple? I would like to hear about it, but I'll tell you right now...that case does not exist.

The reason the "gay marriage is a threat to religious freedom" argument persists is because people don't trust gay marriage advocates to truly leave them the fuck alone after they get what they want, nor do they trust any governing body or court of law that would force it on them without a vote of the people.

And that fear is based on the lies told again and again by anti-gay ministers and sects that know damn well the state can't touch them. So much for that Commandment about "bearing false witness." Not so important after all, is it?

 

[xotoxi]

It is the Black churches that are out in force demonstrating against gay marriage.

Interestingly, the black churches have been rather silent on the issue up here in Maine.

Oh wait...there are no black churches.

 

[xsited1]

I hope the pro-gay marriage people don't take this vote for granted like they did in CA last year. Despite their so-called religion based trappings, the Opposition will not hesitate to lie, lie and lie some more.

Maine doesn't have many black people, so the vote should go the gay way.

 

[xotoxi]

I hope the pro-gay marriage people don't take this vote for granted like they did in CA last year. Despite their so-called religion based trappings, the Opposition will not hesitate to lie, lie and lie some more.

Maine doesn't have many black people, so the vote should go the gay way.

We have about an ounce of melanin to share through the entire state.

 

[stevecox]

Indeed they are licensed... but that is so they can sign legal paperwork. Their first loyalty and priority has always been to their faith and their diocese. Do you think any state has legally "punished" a minister for not marrying an interracial or interfaith couple? I would like to hear about it, but I'll tell you right now...that case does not exist.

First of all, I'm not specifically referring to the Catholic church. Second, those hypothetical cases are not analogous to the debate about gay marriage. Someone likely could be punished for not performing a marriage based on race...yes, including a minister. Interfaith is a bit different because there are usually churches to accommodate those of a different religion; besides, that would be, in my opinion, an open-and-shut First Amendment case based on the Free Exercise clause.

And that fear is based on the lies told again and again by anti-gay ministers and sects that know damn well the state can't touch them. So much for that Commandment about "bearing false witness." Not so important after all, is it?

But you're not a mind-reader, fortune-teller, and I doubt you're even a lawyer, so you can't tell them their fears are completely ridiculous and they should cut the crap. How they're supposed to know "damn well" about this...I don't know. These people assume all it would take is some legal jujitsu and a sympathetic, activist judge to rule against them. And yes, it's possible that ruling could be overturned on appeals, or in a higher court, but between bad press and attorney's fees, they might fear they couldn't withstand all of that. So, they'd rather not take the chance on it happening. This is, of course, in addition to their moral objections to homosexuality and gay marriage.

You have every right to call that bullshit. But that's all you can do is insult them for being fearful. You actually can't guarantee them a fucking thing, and neither can the establishment or the activists who are saying, "no honest! We don't want to take anything away from you! We promise!" all while calling them bigots and religious wing nuts.

 

[Luissa]

In DC the question is before the city council. It is the Black churches that are out in force demonstrating against gay marriage.

there are black religious groups strongly against it just like there is many white religious groups against it. I have noticed that our popular black minister here has stayed silent on the issue.

 

[xotoxi]

Regarding gay marriage in Maine...

I'm not concerned about them teaching kids about gay marriage in schools...

And I'm not concerned about churches being sued for not marrying gays in their church...

I'm concerned that I will be forced by the state to house married gay couples in my basement. I've heard that everyone would be required by law to give free room and board to gay couples if they want somewhere to stay.