Want gun control? Fight smart.

[OldLady]

i don't think the supreme court is wrong in how they have interpreted it, for the most part....

if the constitution was as crystal clear as you seem to believe, I do not think we would have needed a supreme court to determine constitutionality of various different cases....?






btw, what's going on that is different in your life? you seem more relaxed and at ease when communicating?

The Justices don't agree with each other in most cases ...
That doesn't change what the Constitution actually means nor make it unclear.

The Constitution becomes unclear when you want something that isn't there ...
Or when the way it is interpreted is altered in accordance with what someone wants.

I cannot say I have agreed with the Supreme Court and all their decisions or politics either ...
But the Constitution gives them a say-so in the process so I have to respect that.



I don't find the Constitution all that unclear ...
But then again I don't want it to mean something it doesn't.

The best way to interpret the Constitution ...
Is to understand the Founding Fathers didn't establish the federal government to answer all the wants and desires of the People.
They granted the People and States a lot of power to self-govern ... They didn't grant all that power to the federal government.




Relaxed ... I am no different today than I was yesterday ... Neither is the Constitution ...

As far as my Second Amendment approach is concerned ... I have changed the approach.
I am not going to argue about what someone wants it to mean.
Justifications for wanting something doesn't change what the Second Amendment means.

I am more than willing to encourage people to follow the process necessary, and provided for in the Constitution
To change it if they want it mean something it doesn't.

That doesn't mean I will get what I want ... But we will cross that bridge when we get there.
It allows for the people that will be responsible for the shit-storm should things not go well ...
To clearly be responsible/accountable for the mess they have made.

But even that accountability will be rewritten as time passes and someone wants it to mean something else.

.

I don't pretend to follow everything you're saying about the Constitution. I read an interesting Op Ed this weekend by a scholar who says what was most pressing in the minds of the Founding Fathers when they crafted the 2nd Amendment was to prevent a standing army. They were terrified of that and wanted every (eligible) person in the country to be armed and know how to aim so a standing army would never be necessary.
The Founding Fathers might not be turning in their graves over mass shootings, but over our military, they surely are.

Interesting. Since the Founding Fathers are all dead, I guess we could argue if that is a true perspective, like we do about everything else they supposedly "thought."

 

[BlackSand]

I don't pretend to follow everything you're saying about the Constitution. I read an interesting Op Ed this weekend by a scholar who says what was most pressing in the minds of the Founding Fathers when they crafted the 2nd Amendment was to prevent a standing army. They were terrified of that and wanted every (eligible) person in the country to be armed and know how to aim so a standing army would never be necessary.
The Founding Fathers might not be turning in their graves over mass shootings, but over our military, they surely are.

Interesting. Since the Founding Fathers are all dead, I guess we could argue if that is a true perspective, like we do about everything else they supposedly "thought."

Except for the fact they wrote letters and gave speeches that address exactly what they thought.

All the Founding Fathers weren't in agreement.
Hell some Founding Fathers thought Washington should be King instead of President.

But that's not what we ended up with.
In the end we have a document that actually addresses their desires, and that was ratified.

In that document there is a process which describes how you add or subtract things to better suit your desires ...
When they are in conflict with the Founding Fathers.

That's not a question that requires speculation ... That's a fact ...

.

 

[OldLady]

I don't pretend to follow everything you're saying about the Constitution. I read an interesting Op Ed this weekend by a scholar who says what was most pressing in the minds of the Founding Fathers when they crafted the 2nd Amendment was to prevent a standing army. They were terrified of that and wanted every (eligible) person in the country to be armed and know how to aim so a standing army would never be necessary.
The Founding Fathers might not be turning in their graves over mass shootings, but over our military, they surely are.

Interesting. Since the Founding Fathers are all dead, I guess we could argue if that is a true perspective, like we do about everything else they supposedly "thought."

Except for the fact they wrote letters and gave speeches that address exactly what they thought.

All the Founding Fathers weren't in agreement.
Hell some Founding Fathers thought Washington should be King instead of President.

But that's not what we ended up with.
In the end we have a document that actually addresses their desires, and that was ratified.

In that document there is a process which describes how you add or subtract things to better suit your desires ...
When they are in conflict with the Founding Fathers.

That's not a question that requires speculation ... That's a fact ...

.

I'm perfectly aware of that. If we have to lift the word "infringed" from the 2nd Amendment to make you happy, even after years of regulation and control of firearms, so be it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Voice of hope? What are you hoping for, death by stupid?

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

“We believe in absolutely gun-free, zero-tolerance, totally safe schools. That means no guns in America’s schools. Period.”


— NRA President Wayne LaPierre, on C-SPAN in 1999.

 

[OldLady]

Voice of hope? What are you hoping for, death by stupid?

“We believe in absolutely gun-free, zero-tolerance, totally safe schools. That means no guns in America’s schools. Period.”


— NRA President Wayne LaPierre, on C-SPAN in 1999.

Holy crow! He evolved, didn't he?

 

[OldLady]

Voice of hope? What are you hoping for, death by stupid?

There are lots of solutions floating around right now that the young people are championing. Which one are you opposed to?

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

Voice of hope? What are you hoping for, death by stupid?

“We believe in absolutely gun-free, zero-tolerance, totally safe schools. That means no guns in America’s schools. Period.”


— NRA President Wayne LaPierre, on C-SPAN in 1999.

Holy crow! He evolved, didn't he?

He devolved ...,.

 

[BlackSand]

I'm perfectly aware of that. If we have to lift the word "infringed" from the 2nd Amendment to make you happy, even after years of regulation and control of firearms, so be it.

They cannot take the word "infringed" out of the Second Amendment technically.

They could repeal the Second Amendment ... And choose to replace it with another amendment.
Or they could decide not to replace it all.

But that's not really what I wonder about.
I wonder why people like you don't take it to your State Legislators ... States can and do have their own regulations.

There are only two reasons you wouldn't take it to your State Legislators and try to make it a federal issue.
Either you cannot accomplish what you want without leveraging opinion outside your state.
Or ... You want to use the opinion of residents inside your state to make other states do what they don't actually want to do.

Which one of those is your desire?

.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It is the only right that the founding fathers felt so strongly about that they included the admonition to NOT infringe upon this particular right, period. It is that important. They were telling those Americans that were to come after them, "Don't touch this right!" It trumped liberty and life itself. Lifting the word would be breaching the significance of the right itself.
We rule with emotions now. Those men ruled with their heads. They understood the importance of defense. Let's continue to take advantage of their common sense. It has worked for hundreds of years, abundantly.

Infringe: to actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.)
Don't.

 

[MikeK]

I don't pretend to follow everything you're saying about the Constitution. I read an interesting Op Ed this weekend by a scholar who says what was most pressing in the minds of the Founding Fathers when they crafted the 2nd Amendment was to prevent a standing army. They were terrified of that and wanted every (eligible) person in the country to be armed and know how to aim so a standing army would never be necessary.

[...]

That "standing army" avoidance motivation for the Second Amendment makes perfect sense to me. Because as it is our armed forces stand as a glaring menace to our freedom -- especially since conscription has been suspended and replaced with a virtual mercenary army in the employ of government.

But more in keeping with the theme of this discussion, which is the type of firearms the Amendment allows the ordinary citizen to own, I subscribe to the theory of Original Intent which holds that the Founders' idea of a militia was a regulated force of ordinary citizens equipped with the standard military arms of that era, those being muskets and pistols. Adhering to that intent would permit the present-day citizen to keep and bear an M-16 -- our contemporary military standard.

 

[usmbguest5318]

yes, you can hunt with an AR15, but as we get talking, no one I've talked to actually uses one for hunting.

No surprise that. On several hunting enthusiast sites one finds lists of the editors' top pics for deer hunting.

• Outdoor Life
• Game and Fish
• Field and Stream
  • Sub $1000 options
• American Whitetail
• Grand View Outdoors

Of all the rifles mentioned, only once is an AR-15 variant cited as among the best rifles for hunting deer.

I also checked a few sites/listings focused on big game hunting. Again, the AR-15 ilk of guns didn't appear.

• I Like Big Guns and I Cannot Lie: Best Big Bore Rifles - Pew Pew Tactical
  
• You Can Hunt Any Animal in the World with Just These 4 Guns
  
• The Best Big Game Rifles of All Time - Petersen's Hunting
  
• The 20 Best Elk Hunting Rifles Ever Made

So while one may or may not be able to use an AR-15-like rifle for hunting, there are plenty of alternatives up and down the the price spectrum.

Correction:

I rechecked the list above. There were four semi-automatic rifles recommended among the ~100 rifles listed among the various reviewers' recommendations. The ones recommended were:

• A BAR carbine semi (circa 1967 and, presumably, later) -- the author wasn't any more specific than that.
  
• Browning BAR MK. II Safari Grade .338
  
• Remington Model 74/7400/750
  
• Ambush 300 Blackout -- This is the only AR-15-style rifle recommended.

Apologies for my earlier misrepresentation of the content in the articles.​

I have also read that certain AR-type rifles are best or at least good for hunting REALLY big game like rhinos and also wild boar--boar come straight at you, fast, and god help you if you miss.

But since wild boar and rhinos aren't big in the Northeast, I haven't talked to any hunters who use AR's. Our biggest animal is the moose, and they say that's about as challenging as shooting a cow in the pasture.

FWIW, the articles cited that recommended a semi-automatic rifle specifically for big game hunting suggested the Remington Model 74/7400/750 and, for elk hunting, the Browning BAR MK. II Safari Grade .338.

As goes pig hunting, several writers specify several semi-automatic weapons, though handguns are also among the recommended firearms. That suggests to me that while there are good semi-automatic rifles for that purpose, again, they aren't required.

• 10 Best Guns for Hog Hunting
  
• Hog Guns: 15 Great Pig Hunting Rifles and Handguns

FWIW, I have a long time acquaintance who mainly hunted boar because he could hunt them at whatever the time of year or day. I ages ago made the mistake of accepting an invitation to accompany him on one of his hog hunting forays.

He enjoyed the weekend. I enjoyed the learning experience but not the weekend; however, we did leave with a pig, which he donated to a church. That was fine with me because I was seriously wondering how the hell we were going to check a butchered hog on the flight home.

He didn't use a gun at all, and we spent much of a hot, muggy summer day walking around in a Georgia swamp looking for pig trails, looking and sniffing (literally) for hog "hang outs" ("mudding spots" he called them, the smell giving one an indication of how recently pigs had visited them -- who knew pigs have "multiple bedrooms" of a sort...he did, of course), various kinds of spoor and ruts, looking for trees that have slightly abraded bark, and periodically dropping bait and pig piss (apparently, it incenses (little pun) males and makes females curious), whereupon he informed me we would then construct a stand in a nearby tree and sit in it waiting for a pig come by.

The highlight of my weekend: (1) doing pig calls, which, unbeknownst to me at the time did not result in a pig showing up with the alacrity of a housepet and (2) leaving. LOL

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

​

 

[Manonthestreet]

​

And has that policy been a success?

 

[MindWars]

Gun grabbing idiot do not know history and would fair well if these idiots would learn it. Then we wouldn't have Generation a-- hole Z wanting a gun grab you can tell the morons who do not know . any part of history. Which is why the public schools system purposely left it all out ..

 

[Manonthestreet]

To continue to keep them that way, what policies would you advocate that are achievable instead of pie in the sky wish lists

 

[hunarcy]

And, so far, it's not NRA members who are taking firearms into schools.

 

[hunarcy]

And, so far, it's not NRA members who are taking firearms into schools.

And Tyrone laughs because there is no rebuttal.

 

[OldLady]

I'm perfectly aware of that. If we have to lift the word "infringed" from the 2nd Amendment to make you happy, even after years of regulation and control of firearms, so be it.

They cannot take the word "infringed" out of the Second Amendment technically.

They could repeal the Second Amendment ... And choose to replace it with another amendment.
Or they could decide not to replace it all.

But that's not really what I wonder about.
I wonder why people like you don't take it to your State Legislators ... States can and do have their own regulations.

There are only two reasons you wouldn't take it to your State Legislators and try to make it a federal issue.
Either you cannot accomplish what you want without leveraging opinion outside your state.
Or ... You want to use the opinion of residents inside your state to make other states do what they don't actually want to do.

Which one of those is your desire?

.

Really? After how many pages of arguing about Constitutionality of gun control, that's not really what you wonder about? Now it's about ME?
Federal legislation is the only way to effectively ban certain weapons. Ask Chicago if you're not sure on that. State boundaries are entirely porous. Laws on either side may differ, but we don't hear about the infractions until it's too late and a crime has been committed with the weapon.

 

[Moonglow]

Gun grabbing idiot do not know history and would fair well if these idiots would learn it. Then we wouldn't have Generation a-- hole Z wanting a gun grab you can tell the morons who do not know . any part of history. Which is why the public schools system purposely left it all out ..



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The children of the world have a virtual school at the end of their fingertips...It's called the internet....There is no excuse to not being able to learn about anything....