CDZ Virginia Parents: Runaway Carriage

[320 Years of History]

Is social engineering the function of public ed in your mind then? Schools should be teaching kids how to think, not what to think. They should focus in reading, writing, math, science, not self esteem, acceptance of every lifestyle (except apparently conservativism) sexual morality,


U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science
American 15-year-olds continue to turn in flat results in a test that measures students' proficiency in reading, math and science worldwide, failing to crack the global top 20.

The Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, collects test results from 65 countries for its rankings, which come out every three years. The latest results, from 2012, show that U.S. students ranked below average in math among the world's most-developed countries. They were close to average in science and reading.

"In mathematics, 29 nations and other jurisdictions outperformed the United States by a statistically significant margin, up from 23 three years ago," reports Education Week. "In science, 22 education systems scored above the U.S. average, up from 18 in 2009."

In reading, 19 other locales scored higher than U.S. students — a jump from nine in 2009, when the last assessment was performed.

The top overall scores came from Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Macao and Japan, followed by Lichtenstein, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Estonia.

Do you think teaching tolerance is getting in the way of American students' proficiency? No. I'll tell you why American students have traditionally done worse than other countries: Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries. We are pragmatists--do-ers not thinkers.

Too many parents see schools as the enemy and loudly announce "TEACHERS ARE AMONG THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE AROUND." That really teaches our kids to value their time in the classroom, doesn't it? Schools can do better, but it needs to start at home with respect for education. If you've got a beef with a teacher, have the discussion outside the kiddies' earshot.

Have your emotional breakdown elsewhere please. Tolerance for everything under the sun is stupid, dangerous and leads to poor life decision making. [It] isn't the business of the government to be preaching their moral values to the kids. America didn't value education traditionally? Where did you get that from?

You're making excuses for the very expensive piss poor education system run into the ground by teacher unions. We spend a lot and get little. The whole system is corrupt. Districts are scattered all over to have a shitload of administrators and bureaucracy. The children are just a tool for great paying jobs with excellent benefits, where performance is a non issue.

I said what I did because of personal experience. Many teachers are brick stupid. I've done a lot of work for school districts and have met them, instructions were nearly incoherent and spelled way worse than 'principle'. And it gets passed down, lots of kids are just housed and passed along to graduate with minimal reading and writing skills.

Blue:

1. OldLady didn't tacitly or directly write or intimate that America (Americans) didn't at any point in time value education. I would think you can tell that as readily as the rest of us can tell you have attempted to put words in her mouth.
2. While it is true that most Americans/colonists, dating back to the 1600s, valued education, it's equally true that the value most of them placed on it, no matter how much they valued it, didn't rise to the level which we purport these days to have for it. Up to the close of the 18th century, only boys attended pubic schools, and their coursework seldom went further than what today we would call a grammar school curriculum. Throughout the 17th century, only women whose families were wealthy enough received formal private educations. The education of poor women was typically limited to whatever they picked up at home.
   
   The value the colonial and newly formed American citizenry of the various eras generally placed on educating the general populace can be inferred from the timeline of key events in educational history. Below are a handful of 19th century milestones in United States educational history.
   • 1826 -- First public high school for girls opens.
     
   • 1837 -- The idea of "free, universal public education gains a national audience" as a result of the writings of Horace Mann.
   • 1852 -- Massachusetts becomes the first state to require school attendance. By 1885, 16 states have similar laws. (There were 36 States in 1885.)
   • 1854 -- Boston opens the first free city library.
   • 1854 -- Ashmun Institute (Lincoln University) becomes the "first institution anywhere in the world to provide higher education in the arts and sciences for male youth of African descent."
   • 1856 -- First kindergarten created.
   • 1876 -- First medical school for African Americans is founded.
   • 1892 -- The NEA recommends standardizing public high school curricula around the idea of preparing students to attend college.
     [Strange that over 100 years ago the idea of "college prep" was nationally recommended, yet even today, that is not the the minimum level of performance/learning to which all U.S. high school students are held.]

Red:
I have to agree that tolerance for "everything under the sun" is now warranted. Tolerance for the matter the OP has identified is.

I began the list as I did because the matter of education (and its history), particularly public education, for colonial and early American women/girls was very different than that for boys/men. From what I gleaned discussing things with my mother (b. 1927), few in her day and before were women/girls who had the opportunities afforded to her at Miss Porter's. Instead, education for women had more to do with teaching charm and social graces than it did with teaching intellectualism. (God only knows why for Mother somehow managed to "cut a rug" along with mastering chemistry and other academic topics. My daughter on the other hand hasn't the first idea of how to waltz, but she can manage a minuet and she aced her way through prep school and college with ease. LOL )

Times change, and as they do, people, society, thankfully, learns to become increasingly receptive to changes in what is and isn't acceptable. Looking at my great, great grandmother's letters, there's no doubt she felt genuinely sorry for my mother and worried that she was doomed to life as a spinster by not going overseas to a school that would teach her how to be a proper lady. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

Much later, my grandparents were convinced that the neighborhood would go to complete ruin when Jews, and later, "Negros," moved in. Folks today would be appalled at what lengths they undertook to help prevent both those things from happening. Yet now as then, the area remains quite nice. I was relatively young when they passed, so I don't know if they ever developed any sense of tolerance for Jews or blacks. They didn't move, so I guess (hope) they gained some.

The reality is that education is a social matter. By this point in history, I'd have thought that most people realize that tolerance of changing content and contexts as go society and its norms is likely to produce little to nothing bad, and certainly nothing that cannot be undone if it turns out to be "the end of the world."


Green:
That may be. I have no exposure to the 3+ million teachers in the U.S. to have any way to know how smart many or most of them are. Indeed, I haven't even encountered so much as one percent of U.S. teachers, which, were I to have done, would not be enough to attest to the idiocy or lack thereof of "many" of them.


Purple:
I didn't see anything suggesting the OP sought to carry the topic quite that far. I think OldLady accurately sums up the American psyche when she implies that as a culture we are "do-ers," and it doesn't appear she's made a judgment call about that being so.

Lastly, I think that she's right in her observation that too many parents see the school system as the enemy. I'd even go so far as to say they wrongly blame the school system for their kids' failings/ignorance rather than blaming themselves. That, quite frankly, is what I think most intolerant folks do; they blame someone/something else for what's wrong (or if not necessarily wrong, what's in need of improving) rather than committing to being a leader in the effort to fix it and starting that effort by setting their own example. I say that based on all the folks out there who decry the public school system, yet they keep sending their kids to the public schools. They could home school their kids, yet only about 3.5% of parents do.

 

[MarathonMike]

Let's back up. The class was "World Geography", not Art, not creating Writing, not anything related to the assignment. So that's the first oddity, the assignment itself doesn't fit the class. Then the selection of the phrase was ridiculous. To me this is similar to "Clock Boy", deliberately doing something that will clearly be provocative.

 

[Arianrhod]

Let's back up. The class was "World Geography", not Art, not creating Writing, not anything related to the assignment. So that's the first oddity, the assignment itself doesn't fit the class. Then the selection of the phrase was ridiculous. To me this is similar to "Clock Boy", deliberately doing something that will clearly be provocative.

Geography used to be about more than just finding cities and rivers on a map. It used to include things like the culture and language of the region being studied.

 

[MarathonMike]

Fine, there are any number of ways the teacher could have introduced a topic of Middle Eastern culture without picking an obviously provocative phrase for her 15 minutes of fame.

 

[Arianrhod]

Fine, there are any number of ways the teacher could have introduced a topic of Middle Eastern culture without picking an obviously provocative phrase for her 15 minutes of fame.

The thing is "God is great" is not provocative...except maybe to a hardcore atheist. That's exactly what the phrase means. Only the unthinking "All Muslims are terrorists" current atmosphere makes it seem provocative to those who get bent because Starbucks doesn't put snowflakes on their cardboard coffee cups.

 

[320 Years of History]

Let's back up. The class was "World Geography", not Art, not creating Writing, not anything related to the assignment. So that's the first oddity, the assignment itself doesn't fit the class. Then the selection of the phrase was ridiculous. To me this is similar to "Clock Boy", deliberately doing something that will clearly be provocative.

Geography used to be about more than just finding cities and rivers on a map. It used to include things like the culture and language of the region being studied.

I didn't write this earlier out of respect for the OP since she said she wasn't of a mind to castigate the Augusta County parents who made a "to do" out of the assignment. I didn't earlier, even though doing so was in my mind. I'm doing so now that you've opened the door.

Out of curiosity, and inspired by both your remarks, I checked to see what courses are taught in the Augusta County, VA public schools. I found the course plan (enhanced scope and sequence) for the World Geography class on this page of their curriculum site. In one section, it speaks of using calligraphy as part of how one or more concepts will be taught.

Given the part of the word to which the calligraphy element appears, along with the reference information pertaining to calligraphy, I don't know why the parents chose to "get their panties in a bunch" over it only now. Course/document dates from something like 2004, so the use of Arabic calligraphy is not new.

I cannot help but wonder just how concerned the parents who raised an outcry truly are about what and how their kids will be taught in high school? I certainly took the time to look at the course descriptions published not only by the school my kids attended, but also those of the schools I was considering for them, that even as I was at the time 80% certain I'd send them to the same school I attended. Were the Augusta County parents concerned about what and how their children were being instructed, they could have bothered to check out the curriculum for themselves long before committing to send their kids to that school. They could in turn, at the very least, have asked questions about the nature and extent of the class before the term began.

Is that what they did? No. What they did was express shock and dissatisfaction at what their kids were being taught. They presented themselves as ones who had no idea their kids were being indoctrinated in, all but converted to, Islam, even as that isn't at all what the teacher was doing. The simple fact is that whereas one expects adolescents to be reactive in their approach to life and managing it, it's a parent's responsibility to take a proactive stance when it comes to things that concern them. The August County parents who made a stink about the Arabic calligraphy assignment all but abdicated their responsibility and endeavored to place the blame on the school system/teacher. Someone needs to tell those parents to grow up and come back later when they are prepared to address the matter as mature individuals.

 

[MarathonMike]

I'm not disagreeing that the parents over-reacted. To me that's secondary to the fact that this teacher chose a clearly provocative topic and I'm going to assume she isn't an imbecile so she knew it would cause a stir. Maybe not as big as it became but she, IMO, had a motive for picking the "Shahada" for her students to emulate in their calligraphy. Teachers need to teach and not use the current volatile climate to get fame for themselves.

 

[Elvis Obama]

Very sad. Prayer in schools is banned, but not religious texts. There is a huge difference between practicing a religion and studying a religion. The purpose of the assignment was to demonstrate the value of tolerance. This lesson was included in the curriculum for that very reason. Instead, these children got a much more powerful lesson in intolerance. Neither the teacher nor the school district did anything improper, except overestimating the rationality of their community.

I was curious, so I looked up the statistics on this school. Good academic record. The students are mostly from economically stable households. There is virtually no diversity in the school. It's reasonable to infer that the parents of these students have a reasonable degree of education themselves. Yet they reacted in such a knee-jerk, thoughtless manner. Very sad, and rather scary.

Prayer in school is NOT banned. You've been misinformed.

CDZ - Virginia Parents: Runaway Carriage | Page 3 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[320 Years of History]

I'm not disagreeing that the parents over-reacted. To me that's secondary to the fact that this teacher chose a clearly provocative topic and I'm going to assume she isn't an imbecile so she knew it would cause a stir. Maybe not as big as it became but she, IMO, had a motive for picking the "Shahada" for her students to emulate in their calligraphy. Teachers need to teach and not use the current volatile climate to get fame for themselves.

Well, perhaps I have a different view of education, but I happen to think that inspiring their charges to consider the various aspects of controversial topics. Young people need to learn how to critically evaluate all sorts of things. That's what thinking is. Indeed, were my kids to have finished high school and not learned how to do identify and assess the pros and cons of "things," I'd have judged their teachers/school as having failed, regardless of what my kids learned in terms of facts and figures.

Certainly, I've seen no indication in the press that what the teacher at the Augusta County school was doing was using (or not using) that Arabic word as a way to inspire debate in the classroom, but I really doubt that she aimed to rile parents either. And yes, perhaps she should have considered how the students' parents would respond, but nonetheless, the content of the class has been published for the parents to "deal with" since 2004.

The controversial nature of Islam and the U.S. relationship to it, Muslims and Arab countries has existed since then too. Absent any outcry over the prior decade, I don't see why the teacher would think there'd be much cause for concern. Ditto re: the county's current year parents not having expressed any concern prior to the school year.

 

[OldLady]

Teachers are among the stupidest people around. Not knowing the news isn't believable, it was agenda driven without the ability to see the unintended consequences. I've met principles that probably couldn't get hired serving fast food.

It's principals

Well, that changes everything.

No, but it is amusing in the context of someone whose opening sentence is "Teachers are among the stupidest people around."

It's amusing to people like you that only make stupid insulting posts. Never saw anything else from you. And yes, asshole, I know that isn't proper grammar. Get a life.

You must be one of those "stupid" teachers.

of course

 

[OldLady]

Is social engineering the function of public ed in your mind then? Schools should be teaching kids how to think, not what to think. They should focus in reading, writing, math, science, not self esteem, acceptance of every lifestyle (except apparently conservativism) sexual morality,


U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science
American 15-year-olds continue to turn in flat results in a test that measures students' proficiency in reading, math and science worldwide, failing to crack the global top 20.

The Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, collects test results from 65 countries for its rankings, which come out every three years. The latest results, from 2012, show that U.S. students ranked below average in math among the world's most-developed countries. They were close to average in science and reading.

"In mathematics, 29 nations and other jurisdictions outperformed the United States by a statistically significant margin, up from 23 three years ago," reports Education Week. "In science, 22 education systems scored above the U.S. average, up from 18 in 2009."

In reading, 19 other locales scored higher than U.S. students — a jump from nine in 2009, when the last assessment was performed.

The top overall scores came from Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Macao and Japan, followed by Lichtenstein, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Estonia.

Do you think teaching tolerance is getting in the way of American students' proficiency? No. I'll tell you why American students have traditionally done worse than other countries: Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries. We are pragmatists--do-ers not thinkers. Too many parents see schools as the enemy and loudly announce "TEACHERS ARE AMONG THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE AROUND." That really teaches our kids to value their time in the classroom, doesn't it? Schools can do better, but it needs to start at home with respect for education. If you've got a beef with a teacher, have the discussion outside the kiddies' earshot.

Have your emotional breakdown elsewhere please. Tolerance for everything under the sun is stupid, dangerous and leads to poor life decision making. That isn't the business of the government to be preaching their moral values to the kids. America didn't value education traditionally? Where did you get that from? You're making excuses for the very expensive piss poor education system run into the ground by teacher unions. We spend a lot and get little. The whole system is corrupt. Districts are scattered all over to have a shitload of administrators and bureaucracy.
The children are just a tool for great paying jobs with excellent benefits, where performance is a non issue.

I said what I did because of personal experience. Many teachers are brick stupid. I've done a lot of work for school districts and have met them, instructions were nearly incoherent and spelled way worse than 'principle'. And it gets passed down, lots of kids are just housed and passed along to graduate with minimal reading and writing skills.

There are a lot of problems, you are right. Bureaucracies mess up most everything they touch and there are some burnt out teachers gliding through on tenure. I'm glad you took exception to my statement that culturally, America doesn't value education as much as some other countries. That must mean you value education in your own strange way. I'm not very good at explaining myself at times (being a stupid teacher), but our culture doesn't value learning for its own sake--as you said, education is just a path toward a good paying job so we can be great consumers.

 

[320 Years of History]

1. You're a liar.

"Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries."

And learn how to post responses.

Off Topic:

1. This is the CDZ, and insofar as it is, you need to refrain from levying insults.
2. I suggest you invest in a remedial course in reading comprehension.

• "do not value as much as" is not synonymous with "does not value."
  "do not value as much as" is synonymous with "values less than."

 

[OldLady]

Is social engineering the function of public ed in your mind then? Schools should be teaching kids how to think, not what to think. They should focus in reading, writing, math, science, not self esteem, acceptance of every lifestyle (except apparently conservativism) sexual morality,


U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science
American 15-year-olds continue to turn in flat results in a test that measures students' proficiency in reading, math and science worldwide, failing to crack the global top 20.

The Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, collects test results from 65 countries for its rankings, which come out every three years. The latest results, from 2012, show that U.S. students ranked below average in math among the world's most-developed countries. They were close to average in science and reading.

"In mathematics, 29 nations and other jurisdictions outperformed the United States by a statistically significant margin, up from 23 three years ago," reports Education Week. "In science, 22 education systems scored above the U.S. average, up from 18 in 2009."

In reading, 19 other locales scored higher than U.S. students — a jump from nine in 2009, when the last assessment was performed.

The top overall scores came from Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Macao and Japan, followed by Lichtenstein, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Estonia.

Do you think teaching tolerance is getting in the way of American students' proficiency? No. I'll tell you why American students have traditionally done worse than other countries: Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries. We are pragmatists--do-ers not thinkers. Too many parents see schools as the enemy and loudly announce "TEACHERS ARE AMONG THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE AROUND." That really teaches our kids to value their time in the classroom, doesn't it? Schools can do better, but it needs to start at home with respect for education. If you've got a beef with a teacher, have the discussion outside the kiddies' earshot.

Have your emotional breakdown elsewhere please. Tolerance for everything under the sun is stupid, dangerous and leads to poor life decision making. That isn't the business of the government to be preaching their moral values to the kids. America didn't value education traditionally? Where did you get that from? You're making excuses for the very expensive piss poor education system run into the ground by teacher unions. We spend a lot and get little. The whole system is corrupt. Districts are scattered all over to have a shitload of administrators and bureaucracy.
The children are just a tool for great paying jobs with excellent benefits, where performance is a non issue.

I said what I did because of personal experience. Many teachers are brick stupid. I've done a lot of work for school districts and have met them, instructions were nearly incoherent and spelled way worse than 'principle'. And it gets passed down, lots of kids are just housed and passed along to graduate with minimal reading and writing skills.

There are a lot of problems, you are right. Bureaucracies mess up most everything they touch and there are some burnt out teachers gliding through on tenure. I'm glad you took exception to my statement that culturally, America doesn't value education as much as some other countries. That must mean you value education in your own strange way. I'm not very good at explaining myself at times (being a stupid teacher), but our culture doesn't value learning for its own sake--as you said, education is just a path toward a good paying job so we can be great consumers.

Your problem is that you're a liberal, not that you're a teacher. I value education in my own strange way? You've got condescension written all over you. IF you think that doesn't rub off on students you are very wrong. Nor did I claim education was a means to a job to consume more goods. Being a liberal you're also a liar. Kids are being brainwashed with this shit, it's why conservatives want alternatives so badly.

You confused me, first slamming teachers and principals and the whole education system, then getting p.o.'d that I said American culture doesn't value education as much as some other countries. I also misunderstood your comment about education as a path to jobs. I have re-read and now understand what you meant. But you have no right to call me a liar. According to your lights, I may be sadly misled, but I'm not intentionally lying.

 

[Iceweasel]

Is social engineering the function of public ed in your mind then? Schools should be teaching kids how to think, not what to think. They should focus in reading, writing, math, science, not self esteem, acceptance of every lifestyle (except apparently conservativism) sexual morality,


U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science
American 15-year-olds continue to turn in flat results in a test that measures students' proficiency in reading, math and science worldwide, failing to crack the global top 20.

The Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, collects test results from 65 countries for its rankings, which come out every three years. The latest results, from 2012, show that U.S. students ranked below average in math among the world's most-developed countries. They were close to average in science and reading.

"In mathematics, 29 nations and other jurisdictions outperformed the United States by a statistically significant margin, up from 23 three years ago," reports Education Week. "In science, 22 education systems scored above the U.S. average, up from 18 in 2009."

In reading, 19 other locales scored higher than U.S. students — a jump from nine in 2009, when the last assessment was performed.

The top overall scores came from Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Macao and Japan, followed by Lichtenstein, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Estonia.

Do you think teaching tolerance is getting in the way of American students' proficiency? No. I'll tell you why American students have traditionally done worse than other countries: Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries. We are pragmatists--do-ers not thinkers. Too many parents see schools as the enemy and loudly announce "TEACHERS ARE AMONG THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE AROUND." That really teaches our kids to value their time in the classroom, doesn't it? Schools can do better, but it needs to start at home with respect for education. If you've got a beef with a teacher, have the discussion outside the kiddies' earshot.

Have your emotional breakdown elsewhere please. Tolerance for everything under the sun is stupid, dangerous and leads to poor life decision making. That isn't the business of the government to be preaching their moral values to the kids. America didn't value education traditionally? Where did you get that from? You're making excuses for the very expensive piss poor education system run into the ground by teacher unions. We spend a lot and get little. The whole system is corrupt. Districts are scattered all over to have a shitload of administrators and bureaucracy.
The children are just a tool for great paying jobs with excellent benefits, where performance is a non issue.

I said what I did because of personal experience. Many teachers are brick stupid. I've done a lot of work for school districts and have met them, instructions were nearly incoherent and spelled way worse than 'principle'. And it gets passed down, lots of kids are just housed and passed along to graduate with minimal reading and writing skills.

There are a lot of problems, you are right. Bureaucracies mess up most everything they touch and there are some burnt out teachers gliding through on tenure. I'm glad you took exception to my statement that culturally, America doesn't value education as much as some other countries. That must mean you value education in your own strange way. I'm not very good at explaining myself at times (being a stupid teacher), but our culture doesn't value learning for its own sake--as you said, education is just a path toward a good paying job so we can be great consumers.

Your problem is that you're a liberal, not that you're a teacher. I value education in my own strange way? You've got condescension written all over you. IF you think that doesn't rub off on students you are very wrong. Nor did I claim education was a means to a job to consume more goods. Being a liberal you're also a liar. Kids are being brainwashed with this shit, it's why conservatives want alternatives so badly.

You confused me, first slamming teachers and principals and the whole education system, then getting p.o.'d that I said American culture doesn't value education as much as some other countries. I also misunderstood your comment about education as a path to jobs. I have re-read and now understand what you meant. But you have no right to call me a liar. According to your lights, I may be sadly misled, but I'm not intentionally lying.

I don't get po'd by comments on the internet. Why do you need to say that? The education industry is really screwed up, and it ain't just me saying so.

Measuring America’s Decline, in Three Charts - The New Yorker
In recent years, a number of international surveys have raised alarms that the United States is falling behind other countries in terms of educational achievement. Now there is another one, and its findings represent a serious threat to the country’s future prosperity. In basic literacy, numeracy, and problem-solving skills, the new study shows, younger Americans are at or near the bottom of the standings among advanced countries.

The survey was carried out by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, a Paris-based forum and research group, which counts thirty-three high- and middle-income countries among its members. Some of its findings have been well covered elsewhere, particularly by the Times’ editorial board and its economics columnist Eduardo Porter.

The numbers come from the O.E.C.D.’s inaugural Survey of Adult Skills, a massive exercise in which researchers interviewed five thousand people in each participating country. In order to capture their ability to function in “technology rich environments,” the subjects were also asked to answer questions on a computer.

The first chart shows proficiency in literacy among sixteen-to-twenty-four-year-olds. Finland’s youth came out on top, with a score of 296.7; the average score was 277.9. The United States scored 260.9, which put it second to last, above Italy.

 

[Elvis Obama]

Do you think teaching tolerance is getting in the way of American students' proficiency? No. I'll tell you why American students have traditionally done worse than other countries: Americans do not value education as much as Japan and other countries. We are pragmatists--do-ers not thinkers. Too many parents see schools as the enemy and loudly announce "TEACHERS ARE AMONG THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE AROUND." That really teaches our kids to value their time in the classroom, doesn't it? Schools can do better, but it needs to start at home with respect for education. If you've got a beef with a teacher, have the discussion outside the kiddies' earshot.

Have your emotional breakdown elsewhere please. Tolerance for everything under the sun is stupid, dangerous and leads to poor life decision making. That isn't the business of the government to be preaching their moral values to the kids. America didn't value education traditionally? Where did you get that from? You're making excuses for the very expensive piss poor education system run into the ground by teacher unions. We spend a lot and get little. The whole system is corrupt. Districts are scattered all over to have a shitload of administrators and bureaucracy.
The children are just a tool for great paying jobs with excellent benefits, where performance is a non issue.

I said what I did because of personal experience. Many teachers are brick stupid. I've done a lot of work for school districts and have met them, instructions were nearly incoherent and spelled way worse than 'principle'. And it gets passed down, lots of kids are just housed and passed along to graduate with minimal reading and writing skills.

There are a lot of problems, you are right. Bureaucracies mess up most everything they touch and there are some burnt out teachers gliding through on tenure. I'm glad you took exception to my statement that culturally, America doesn't value education as much as some other countries. That must mean you value education in your own strange way. I'm not very good at explaining myself at times (being a stupid teacher), but our culture doesn't value learning for its own sake--as you said, education is just a path toward a good paying job so we can be great consumers.

Your problem is that you're a liberal, not that you're a teacher. I value education in my own strange way? You've got condescension written all over you. IF you think that doesn't rub off on students you are very wrong. Nor did I claim education was a means to a job to consume more goods. Being a liberal you're also a liar. Kids are being brainwashed with this shit, it's why conservatives want alternatives so badly.

You confused me, first slamming teachers and principals and the whole education system, then getting p.o.'d that I said American culture doesn't value education as much as some other countries. I also misunderstood your comment about education as a path to jobs. I have re-read and now understand what you meant. But you have no right to call me a liar. According to your lights, I may be sadly misled, but I'm not intentionally lying.

I don't get po'd by comments on the internet. Why do you need to say that? The education industry is really screwed up, and it ain't just me saying so.

Measuring America’s Decline, in Three Charts - The New Yorker
In recent years, a number of international surveys have raised alarms that the United States is falling behind other countries in terms of educational achievement. Now there is another one, and its findings represent a serious threat to the country’s future prosperity. In basic literacy, numeracy, and problem-solving skills, the new study shows, younger Americans are at or near the bottom of the standings among advanced countries.

The survey was carried out by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, a Paris-based forum and research group, which counts thirty-three high- and middle-income countries among its members. Some of its findings have been well covered elsewhere, particularly by the Times’ editorial board and its economics columnist Eduardo Porter.

The numbers come from the O.E.C.D.’s inaugural Survey of Adult Skills, a massive exercise in which researchers interviewed five thousand people in each participating country. In order to capture their ability to function in “technology rich environments,” the subjects were also asked to answer questions on a computer.

The first chart shows proficiency in literacy among sixteen-to-twenty-four-year-olds. Finland’s youth came out on top, with a score of 296.7; the average score was 277.9. The United States scored 260.9, which put it second to last, above Italy.

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

 

[Iceweasel]

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

Except the poor here live better than the poor anywhere. Upward mobility of women causes problems with education? Does not compute.

 

[Elvis Obama]

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

Except the poor here live better than the poor anywhere. Upward mobility of women causes problems with education? Does not compute.

Comparing the statistics from different countries is, of course, difficult, methodologically. Nonetheless, the correlation between educational outcomes and poverty is well established.

As far as the women's movement and teacher quality goes, there are people who argue both sides of that question, of course. Here's one interesting piece on the subject:
http://www-siepr.stanford.edu/conferences/GWright2008/Jones.pdf

 

[Iceweasel]

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

Except the poor here live better than the poor anywhere. Upward mobility of women causes problems with education? Does not compute.

Comparing the statistics from different countries is, of course, difficult, methodologically. Nonetheless, the correlation between educational outcomes and poverty is well established.

The US spends 11 to 12k per student on average annually. That's double of other developed nations. Explain to me how poverty fits in?

 

[Elvis Obama]

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

Except the poor here live better than the poor anywhere. Upward mobility of women causes problems with education? Does not compute.

Comparing the statistics from different countries is, of course, difficult, methodologically. Nonetheless, the correlation between educational outcomes and poverty is well established.

The US spends 11 to 12k per student on average annually. That's double of other developed nations. Explain to me how poverty fits in?

No. It is not possible to explain anything to you. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between poverty and the amount of money spent on children in a classroom is not worth engaging with.

 

[Iceweasel]

There are many factors involved in America's educational decline. Many are never considered, including upward mobility for women, which has greatly affected the teaching ranks. The single greatest factor is poverty. We are the richest country on the planet, and yet we allow more and more of our children to be raised in poverty.

Except the poor here live better than the poor anywhere. Upward mobility of women causes problems with education? Does not compute.

Comparing the statistics from different countries is, of course, difficult, methodologically. Nonetheless, the correlation between educational outcomes and poverty is well established.

The US spends 11 to 12k per student on average annually. That's double of other developed nations. Explain to me how poverty fits in?

No. It is not possible to explain anything to you. Anyone who cannot tell the difference between poverty and the amount of money spent on children in a classroom is not worth engaging with.

I knew you couldn't answer it because you're full of it, we spend way more on kids, rich, poor and in between so your theory is a sack of excrement. The only explanation you CAN give is "I believe it because I want to".