VietNam..April 30th....How It Ended.

[José]

The state of South Vietnam was so unbelievably shambolic, so absurdly devoid of any popular support and nationalist legitimacy in the eyes of the vietnamese people that many times throughout its history, the whole country found itself on the verge of total collapse without any north vietnamese/vietcong military activity.

Social convulsion alone (endless succession of general strikes, political protest, anti-government manifestations, etc) almost did the trick numerous times without a single bullet fired.

Paraphrasing Saddam, that was the mother of all puppet states.

 

[Oldguy]

The callus democrat majority could have withdrawn funding any time during the LBJ administration but they waited to stab a republican in the back and abandon all the Vietnamese who were loyal to the US. Treasonous democrats authorized Bush to use combat Troops in Iraq and then undermined the mission and tried to impact the morale of the troops like Harry Reid's "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.

Bullshit. I thought you were smarter than that.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

so did Japan and germany and Iraq and afghan

Japan and Germany and Iraq and Afghanistan belonged to the Vietnamese??

America was attacked by Japan and Germany was Japan's ally and we went to war against them. Afghanistan harbored a rag tag group of international terrorists who attacked America. We gave warning and then went in.

Iraq? Dante supported going in for reasons other than the bs wmd. Dante also was stunned into disbelief when Bush/Cheney took support for going in as a mandate to remake and rebuild Iraq from the ground up. As soon as Bush/Cheney allowed that asshole Bremer to run things...it was turned into a different ballgame where Bush/Cheney used the support to go in for support of a strategic plan that no one voted on...and we all know no one would have supported it ahead of time.

Even now Bush will address questions about Iraq by deflecting/mentioning 'removing Saddam was the right thing to do'

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

bullshit revisionist history





please.....this shit stinks

Right. The eventual outcome of that war was decided the day Lyndon Johnson opted not to invade the North. Given the times, I can't fault him for that, but the decision to fight what was basically a defensive war sealed the deal from the very beginning, right wing propaganda about the media and Democrats not withstanding.

All the Vietnamese had to do was wait us out like they did the French. It was their country. We were acting like cold warriors, like the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Another anniversary is coming up on May 4th.

OHIO CSNY ( got audio back) - Kent State Massacre Montage - YouTube

CSN&Y- Ohio

1. Let's note in passing that you have not one gripe with the construction of the OP....because not only is every item correct...but the conclusion is indisputable.

So....what remains for you?
Yup.....try to change the subject.


2. Now...that particular subject....a terrific fall-back for a Leftist, 'cause you have been trained to respond to the phrase 'Kent State' similarly to the efforts of Pavlov, with his subjects.




And this is largely because you don't know what you think you know....I'm reminded of the saying about how mushrooms are raised.


3. The folks who control the information that leads you down the primrose path, are the same ones who brought you the upheavals of the 60's.

Instructive of the movement is the new evidence released by the FBI as to the causes of the Kent State shootings of 1970.
“Previously undisclosed FBI documents suggest that the Kent State antiwar protests were more meticulously planned than originally thought and that one or more gunshots may have been fired at embattled Ohio National Guardsmen before their killings of four students and woundings of at least nine others on that searing day in May 1970….

Yet the declassified FBI files show the FBI already had developed credible evidence suggesting that there was indeed a sniper and that one or more shots may have been fired at the guardsmen first….And a memorandum sent to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover on May 19, 1970, referred to bullet holes found in a tree and a statue — evidence, the report stated, that “indicated that at least two shots had been fired at the National Guard.”
New light shed on Kent State killings - Washington Times


4. For perspective, consider the famous Weathermen ‘Days of Rage’ protests of the Chicago 7 trial in October 1969. Planned as war in the streets, even the Black Panthers decided that these folks were too psychotic even for them. Fred Hampton, deputy chairman of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party (BPP), said “We oppose the anarchistic, adventuristic, chauvinistic, individualistic, masochistic, Custeristic Weathermen.”
Susan Braudy, “Family Circle: The Boudins and the Aristocracy of the Left,: p. 188

a. Too nuts for the Black Panthers, but they became respected advisors and co-authors to the current Democratic President.



b. At a 1969 “War Council” in Flint, Michigan, Bernardine Dohrn gave her most memorable and notorious speech to her followers. Holding her fingers in what became the Weatherman “fork salute,” she said of the bloody murders recently committed by the Manson Family in which the pregnant actress Sharon Tate and a Folgers Coffee heiress and several other inhabitants of a Benedict Canyon mansion were brutally stabbed to death: “Dig it! First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them. They even shoved a fork into the victim’s stomach! Wild!” Bernardine Dohrn - Discover the Networks


5. So...these are the folks that serve as teachers to you Leftists?
At other rallies, Dohrn said, "Bring the revolution home, kill your parents -- that's where it's at."


How very easy it is to lead the uninformed.

 

[namvet]

half of them with Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

so LBJ had NO responsibility here at all. thanks for clearing that up

LBJ? Who said he didn't.

We all see you do not deny or refute what you are attacking.

half of the US serivce deaths happened with the Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

you launched the attack I just asked a question. ill ask another. why did LBJ order the bombing halt after TET???

 

[PoliticalChic]

The callus democrat majority could have withdrawn funding any time during the LBJ administration but they waited to stab a republican in the back and abandon all the Vietnamese who were loyal to the US. Treasonous democrats authorized Bush to use combat Troops in Iraq and then undermined the mission and tried to impact the morale of the troops like Harry Reid's "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge.

Bullshit. I thought you were smarter than that.

Actually, the OP proves what he states.

And, for the record, I didn't think you were smarter than you appear.
It was hardly necessary for you to verify same.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

so LBJ had NO responsibility here at all. thanks for clearing that up

LBJ? Who said he didn't.

We all see you do not deny or refute what you are attacking.

half of the US service deaths happened with the Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

you launched the attack I just asked a question. ill ask another. why did LBJ order the bombing halt after TET???

you attack while refuting nothing.

LBJ left office in 1968

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

1. The weakness of Nixon due to the Watergate scandal...

Bring the boys home now! And we did.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Nixon promised to end the war, not win it. He promised 'peace' not 'victory'


Why are right wingers like PoliChic so incredibly ignorant about American history?


The Nukes of October: Richard Nixon's Secret Plan to Bring Peace to Vietnam

During his campaign for the presidency the year before, Richard Nixon had vowed to end that conflict. But more than 4,500 Americans had died there in the first six months of 1969, including 84 soldiers at the debacle of Hamburger Hill.

Meanwhile, the peace negotiations in Paris, which many people hoped would end the conflict, had broken down. The Vietnamese had declared that they would just sit there, conceding nothing, "until the chairs rot."

Frustrated, Nixon decided to try something new: threaten the Soviet Union with a massive nuclear strike and make its leaders think he was crazy enough to go through with it. His hope was that the Soviets would be so frightened of events spinning out of control that they would strong-arm Hanoi, telling the North Vietnamese to start making concessions at the negotiating table or risk losing Soviet military support.

 

[namvet]

LBJ? Who said he didn't.

We all see you do not deny or refute what you are attacking.

half of the US service deaths happened with the Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

you launched the attack I just asked a question. ill ask another. why did LBJ order the bombing halt after TET???

you attack while refuting nothing.

LBJ left office in 1968

no. you attack while refuting nothing. man this is waaaay over your head

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

http://mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_2/3_2_5.pdf

VIETNAM And The Republicans
The War In Vietnam.

The Text of the Controversial Republican White Paper

Prepared by the Staff of the Senate Republican Policy Committee, Washington, .D. C.,

Public Affairs Press. 1967,

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

you launched the attack I just asked a question. ill ask another. why did LBJ order the bombing halt after TET???

you attack while refuting nothing.

LBJ left office in 1968

no. you attack while refuting nothing. man this is waaaay over your head

yet a timeline of posts proves you are full of shit. why is that?

its the 58,000 plus kids I remember most

half of them with Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

so LBJ had NO responsibility here at all. thanks for clearing that up

LBJ? Who said he didn't.

We all see you do not deny or refute what you are attacking.

half of the US serivce deaths happened with the Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

 

[Dot Com]

Curiously, no one has mentioned McNamara's book This coincides w/ what Dante was saying. They continued sending people there KNOWING there was no chance of winning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara#Post-World_Bank_activities_and_assessments

McNamara's memoir, In Retrospect, published in 1995, presented an account and analysis of the Vietnam War from his point of view. According to his lengthy New York Times obituary, "[h]e concluded well before leaving the Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the public until late in life. In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was 'wrong, terribly wrong.'" In return, he faced a "firestorm of scorn" at that time

 

[namvet]

you attack while refuting nothing.

LBJ left office in 1968

no. you attack while refuting nothing. man this is waaaay over your head

yet a timeline of posts proves you are full of shit. why is that?

so LBJ had NO responsibility here at all. thanks for clearing that up

LBJ? Who said he didn't.

We all see you do not deny or refute what you are attacking.

half of the US serivce deaths happened with the Kissinger/Nixon secret peace plan. In a few years they doubled the deaths of American service people

Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. We did not belong there. We stayed too long. Most all of the heroic sacrifices were for nothing.

a timeline of posts proves you are so full of shit the whites of your eyes are brown. why is that?

 

[namvet]

Curiously, no one has mentioned McNamara's book This coincides w/ what Dante was saying. They continued sending people there KNOWING there was no chance of winning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara#Post-World_Bank_activities_and_assessments

McNamara's memoir, In Retrospect, published in 1995, presented an account and analysis of the Vietnam War from his point of view. According to his lengthy New York Times obituary, "[h]e concluded well before leaving the Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the public until late in life. In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was 'wrong, terribly wrong.'" In return, he faced a "firestorm of scorn" at that time

LBJ was a soft headed idiot that McNamara used like a lap dog

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

poor namvet, too much
Orange Koolaid

 

[Oldguy]

Why are right wingers like PoliChic so incredibly ignorant about American history?

It's deliberate. Can't have anything conflicting with the official meme.

 

[Oldguy]

http://mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_2/3_2_5.pdf

VIETNAM And The Republicans
The War In Vietnam.

The Text of the Controversial Republican White Paper

Prepared by the Staff of the Senate Republican Policy Committee, Washington, .D. C.,

Public Affairs Press. 1967,

OOOOO! Good find!

 

[Dot Com]

Two citations for all of that? Notable quotables & a Joan Baez quote link?

Anyway, you ever hear of the gulf of Tonkin "incident"? What are your views of the military industrial complex and the lengths to which it will go to feed the beast (contractors like the modern day Halliburtons, KBR's, BlackWaters, ect... and their politician, water-carrier's campaign coffers and promises of future employment)?