Universal Health Care

Discussion in 'Health and Lifestyle' started by t_samford, Jan 9, 2009.

  1. t_samford
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    t_samford TSamford

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    What do you think about it? Personally i think it will take away the incentive to make more money because the government will be paying the doctors bills and the government will not pay much. Why? Because its the government for Christs sake. There will be no reason to pay more to go through college to be a doctor because whats the point in spending more time and money to be a doctor if a school teacher is making just as much?
     
  2. Epsilon Delta
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    Epsilon Delta Jedi Master

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    I posted this in another thread before, I guess the point bears repeating, since a lot of people share your fears of the well-being of doctors:

    [Where are the hordes of doctors, patients, and people demanding the end of "socialized medicine"? Where are these people? Where are all the Japanese, Britons, French, Spaniards, Japanese, Australians, Czechs, Danes doctors, patients, and people BEGGING for their government to destroy this demonic communist medicine? I just don't understand where they are. Where are they hiding? Where are the big campaigns against this unspeakable evil? Why is it that not even the most conservative parties can even dream of putting "abolishing communist health care" on their platform? It is because they fear the evil Icelandic, Swedish, or Norwegian KGB thought police? Is the New Zealand SS putting all these hordes of malcontents in jail?

    Where are they??

    I mean, I understand. You have a model in your head. It tells you that with "socialized medicine" doctors become dirt poor, there's no quality, and everyone is friggin' PISSED. The reasoning may be very good and logical. But where's the evidence? Where are the millions of destitute doctors storming the streets of Ottawa and Vienna for freedom and fair wages?

    And that's to say nothing about the myriad of other ridiculous charges against "communistic medicine". Let's make these two VERY clear:

    1) Research & Development: Nationalized health care systems have absolutely NOTHING to do with medical research. NOTHING WHATSOEVER. Some of the largest, most successful, and most PRIVATE medical R&D firms are in countries with nationalized health systems. These firms, many in Europe and Asia, are NOT PUBLIC. If anything, governments everywhere, including in the US, subsidize these private firms through the infrastructure provided by the networks of university and state research grants. But this has absolutely nothing to do with national health care, other than the national health agencies buy their products. So zip it.

    2) Foreigners coming over for treatment: This has also very little to do with national health plans. In Costa Rica, about 10% of the the tourism we receive (we're talking 10% of some 2,000,000 people a year who come visit, so thousand and thousands of people) are Americans, Canadians and other developed country citizens who come specifically for some kinds of medical treatment, because it's cheaper and it's done well. Does that mean that our health system is superior to the Canadian health care system? Absolutely not. Just because a relative handful of rich foreigners choose to come for SOME specific treatment (plastic surgery, dental work, etc.) does not in any way speak of any of the merits of the National HEALTH SYSTEM. These things are set apart, and cannot measure the ability of the system in confronting the efficient managing to provide the services required by the population of the country at large. The idea that a handful of people go to a country for a specific treatment means that "oh, our health SYSTEM is just great" doesn't make any sense. Sure, the quality of the service of that particular kind might be high, but that doesn't really mean anything in regards to the health SYSTEM.

    ---

    Now, the way I see it, there are countries in which there is no health system and people want it (usually dirt-poor countries, like Nicaragua, most of sub-Saharan Africa, etc), and there's countries with national health systems (basically every developed country and some middle-income ones) and nobody wants to get rid of it. The problem in America is that there is a bizarre hybrid, and a huge majority WANT a national health system. So no matter what, the current state of affairs has to change. Nobody wants it. So the government has to tear it down, and either 1) follow the ~30%+ who want a true free health-care market (i.e. no health system) or 2) follow the ~60%+ who want a national health system. What are the possibilities?

    It appears that in option number (1) what we have are, again, lovely models and hope that the free market solution "works". I guess everyone has their own definition of "works" though. I'm sure it would at least provide a good big chunk of the population with very good care. Like any commodity, those who can afford it buy it. Those who don't, don't. Personally, I don't think this is a good model for health care, cuz I believe health care is a basic human right (and most Americans agree with me on this), but I understand many people here don't, and that's fine. What option (2) has to offer is that there's tangible evidence that it "works", based on the evidence of pretty much every other developed country. But again, it "works" under the belief that health care is a basic human right and one of the only legitimate roles of the state.

    So that's that.

    EDIT: I ask please, if anyone bothers to respond, I'm really looking for someone to shed light on the first point: Where are the hordes who want to abolish their national health care? That's what I'm really confused about. A lot of people here talk as though it's some sort of huge unknown. Something new and scary, which has never been tried before in the history of man kind. That's not true. There's dozens of examples to choose from. If indeed national health care fucks the doctors, fucks the quality, and fucks the national budget: where's the heat? I really wanna know.]
     
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  3. Amanda
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    Amanda Calm as a Hindu cow

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    I think it would be a good thing because everyone deserves health care. I don't think people only get into medicine to make money. In fact, if I thought that was why my doctor was there I would get a different doctor.
     
  4. Red Dawn
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    Red Dawn Senior Member

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    Link me up credible proof that a doctor would make as much as a school teacher.
     
  5. DiamondDave
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    DiamondDave Army Vet

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    Well. if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs.. if you think that they NEED this to be supplied and taken care of by the government, many other things would "need" to be provided by a socialist government system as well... leading to more government control of daily aspects of everyone's lives...

    [​IMG]

    The key is that while we all have needs of various levels... it is not the responsibility of anyone but you to provide for your personal needs.... health care is not a physiological need... those are basically the 4 basic needs of food, shelter, water and clothing... period... and the government does not exist to provide those to every last person either

    There are many motivations for those who choose a career of doctor, just as there are many motivations of persons who choose any other career.. some would be to serve people more.. some would indeed be for money... some for fame.. some for a feeling of self worth.. some for the challenge... the list goes on and on and on
     
  6. Gord
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    Gord Active Member

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    The "hordes" of doctors in Canada elected a privatization proponent as the head of the Canadian Medical Association and he is actively campaigning for it on doctors behalf.

    (So much for that argument...)
     
  7. Amanda
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    Amanda Calm as a Hindu cow

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    In a vacuum I would agree with you. However, since the government we be around to demand what I owe them I think I should get something in return. As a citizen I think we should be guaranteed many things and healthcare is one of them. Release me into the wild and let me be free of government interference and I will take care of everything myself or make pacts with others to help each other. But that's not the reality we're dealing with. Government takes our money and agrees to provide certain services like police or road maintenance. I think the health of the citizens is more important than the health of the roads. But that's just me.
     
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  8. Andrew2382
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    Andrew2382 Gold Member

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    Please show me where in the constitution it says every american deserves government provided healthcare.

    Healthcare is a responsibility not a right.
     
  9. DiamondDave
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    DiamondDave Army Vet

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    And that is where you are wrong....

    Nobody owes you squat....

    Now the government has over-reached it's boundaries for a while now... our taxes should be used for law enforcement, the workings of inner government to create laws and the courts system, military and the national defense, basic infrastructure, etc.... it is not the job of the government to take over your personal responsibilities for you... the government is there to ensure you have the freedoms to provide for yourself, choose what you want for your health care, etc...

    Your health is very important to you... your health is not very important to me or anyone else not related to you... your health is not important to the country as a whole.. an infrastructure for the populace as a whole is, national defense is, law enforcement and legal standards are

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...


    Not taking care of every responsibility in your life, taking away your personal liberty to have control over your personal well being, and infringing on everyone else's pursuit of happiness and earnings to provide for your personal health
     
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  10. Amanda
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    Amanda Calm as a Hindu cow

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    Whatever. Already rebutted this so this is dead.
     

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