*Turkey Next Shit Hole To Go Up In Puff Of Smoke*

[Circe]

I am with the protestors with all my heart. It would make me sad to see Turkey going backwards. But you have to understand one thing, these protestors have one common enemy in mind, it is Tayyip Erdogan. He has been one man for 10 years. This has corrupted him big time. But Turks have one thing to understand and that became more and more obvious to them during this past 3 terms of Erdogan, Turkey has a conservative religious majority. So it will be them mostly effecting the future of this country, if Turkey will be a democracy, just because math is math, just because 2x2=4.

But conservatives also realized something, democracy means stability and stability means prosperity.

I see these last 10 years a period for elements of Turkish society meeting each other, understanding each other, and more important than all; to think like each other.

Now conservatives can see authoritarian maniac dictators like Erdogan will not bring peace nor prosperity to the country. They elected him to power because they were angry to the militaristic ruling in the country. But now things have changed, and changed forever. It will probably be another conservative religious guy ruling Turkey after Erdogan, but I bet he will not be a psychopath like Erdogan. And you know why, because those people just lost 33 bilion dollars of their wealth in stock exchange just because Erdogan was a hard headed dictator in just 6 days of turmoil.

After all, politics and religion is a business in Turkey, just like it is in the west. And that brings democracy...

Peace V

Thanks for your reply, well said ---

You are right that the Turkish stock exchange took a real bath during these riots, even so far: not good. I did see that on Reuters, which is covering the situation well.

I fear the modernization wrought by Kemal Ataturk is wearing out: nothing lasts, things change. We see that here, too, dramatically.

 

[Esmeralda]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong. There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I agree. Turkey is fine. These people who think this is a major crisis are completely ignorant, and many of them just plain idiots.

 

[Avatar4321]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong. There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I agree. Turkey is fine. These people who think this is a major crisis are completely ignorant, and many of them just plain idiots.

Then why is that the same exact thing that was said with Eygpt, Libya, and Syria?

 

[Circe]

Second, it's already been spreading. It's been spreading for the past 2-3 years. We are currently fighting a proxy war in Syria because of it.

Nations are aligning for war. Let's pray that it doesnt end up being a full out conflict. Because if it does, we are looking at WW3.

The civil war in Syria isn't a proxy war!! No more than the one in Libya was. They have that every once in awhile in the best of times, that's all: Assad's father massacred 10,000 Palestinians, after all. No one would have supposed Assad would have multiplied that by a factor of 10, but surprise, it's happened.

The Mideast is going up in smoke due to pressures that don't seem to have much to do with the West. And it is indeed spreading wildly. We may get something out of this yet, I am beginning to feel hopeful that the Muslim lands will be so completely disintegrated that they may not be as much trouble as they have been since 9/11/2001.

I agree with you that it looks like nations are aligning for war, but it may not be with us, exactly. On the other hand, if it's a world war, we are ALWAYS dragged into it, so that is possible. If it's only civil wars in Muslim lands, that may not spread to non-Muslim countries.

 

[Circe]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong. There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I agree. Turkey is fine. These people who think this is a major crisis are completely ignorant, and many of them just plain idiots.

Then why is that the same exact thing that was said with Eygpt, Libya, and Syria?

Incomprehensible and malignant denial, I suppose. They look at a Mideast exploding with violence country after country, and each one that goes up they say, "Oh, no, it can't possibly happen there!"

Wild. Total denial of what is happening on the ground right now in front of the whole world.

 

[alpine]

Mideast has always been about oil, and this has not changed a bit. To figure out what the hell is going on with Iraq-Syria-Turkey, you have to look at NABUCCO.

It is not in US interests to intervene in Syria. But European countries has a lot on stake in Syria. Their union will probably collapse if they can not get NABUCCO project in life and this is only possible with an independent Kurdish Nation. But Russia doesn't want that because this will effect Russia's biggest income, natural gas sale to Europe.

Iraqi shia president ordered arrest of sunni PM. He barely made it to Kurdish territory. This was Russia pushing Iran and Iran pushing Iraq. Then Kurds said they would sell oil and natural gas without the permission of central government controlled by shia, meaning Iran, meaning Russia. Europe plans to connect North Iraqi Kurdish gas fields to NABUCCO, till they figure out how to get central asian countries out of the Russian sphere because the Caspian sea pipeline will be a hassle and Europe doesn't have time to deal with all that drama because they got hit hard by the economic crises and need urgent resources, which NABUCCO has the potential to provide, since Russia is selling high priced gas to Europe and sucking their bood like a vampire.

Anyways, Europe did make the Kurdish Guerilla in Turkey to lay down arms. Next step, Syria to be split. Kurdish part will get together with Iraqi Kurds and form a new country, Kurdistan. Europe see this as a way out of economic collapse waiting in the horizon. Of course, Russia will try anything to keep her main income.

 

[Circe]

I would love to finally see a Kurdistan. The biggest nation in the world without a country.

 

[Esmeralda]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.
There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I was told the same thing when riots started in Syria, Libya and Egypt a few years ago.

In 2007 there were much bigger protests with people in the millions going to the streets.
Republic Protests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2 months later the government won the elections by increasing their votes by 12%
Turkish general election, 2007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The current protests are much smaller in scale, but they've anarchistic and violent elements.
The biggest number I've encountered comes from Stratfor which put protestors at Taksim-Istanbul at 10.000.
In a city of 14 million people.
Stratfor

Areas were protests are taking place:

Many of the areas where protests were reported are also areas where the Republican People's Party would be expected to bring out a large number of supporters.

That's how Turkey is currently ruled
yellow = current government

And off course, elections in Turkey are democratic as attested by OSCE
oscepa.org

You could make the same kind of map with the US, and it looks like the majority if the country is conservative Republican, but, in fact, just like in Turkey, those are the areas of low population.

The urban areas of Turkey are pro-secular, pro-democracy and do not want a theocracy. The majority of the peopel in Turkey want to maintain Attaturk's vision of a democractic, secular Turkey.

 

[Esmeralda]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.
There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I was told the same thing when riots started in Syria, Libya and Egypt a few years ago.

Libya, Egypt and Syria are completely different entitities. They were ruled by dictators. Turkey is a truly democratic nation. The same thing was said about Bahrain in 2011, that it was in crisis and would fall. Not so. Bahrain is rulled by a monarchy that has been in place for nearly 250 years. The problems in Bahrain have to do with Shia/Sunni issues. Bahrain was stable before radicals were inspired by other protests in the ME and is stable again. Every country in the ME is not the same. Every Muslim country is not the same.

 

[Saigon]

Incomprehensible and malignant denial, I suppose. They look at a Mideast exploding with violence country after country, and each one that goes up they say, "Oh, no, it can't possibly happen there!"

Wild. Total denial of what is happening on the ground right now in front of the whole world.

Or it could have something to do with the fact that you have absolutely no idea at all about the countries involved and couldn't place Ankara on a map - whereas the people you are lecturing know Turkey rather well.

Be honest now -how well do you know Turkey as a country?

 

[Saigon]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong. There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I agree. Turkey is fine. These people who think this is a major crisis are completely ignorant, and many of them just plain idiots.

Then why is that the same exact thing that was said with Eygpt, Libya, and Syria?

No it wasn't - at least no one who had a clue about the region said that.

Syria has been asurprise for me, but Qaddaffi was always going to get rolled at some stage, and Egypt was always likely to struggle to find its balance one Mubarak fell. Lebanon is vulnerable right now.

 

[Saigon]

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

Cause Turkey is different compared to any other middle eastern country. Cause Turkey is capitalist, comparing to all other fundamentalist middle eastern countries. It is life or death for middle easterners, but it is business for turks, like everything else, including religion.

So considering this fact, Turkey is more like western countries. I see these protests being against only one man, Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is now being criticized by the bigwigs of his own party. He is probably going to be replaced in the next elections, by his own voters. Thats something you don't see in any other middle eastern country whatsoever. And this is called democracy, and turks apparently have it

Exactly, and well said.

But to Circe - the entire Islamic world from Morocco to Indonesia is a single country, with one culture, one language and one political system. This is called ignorance.

It makes no difference to Circe that Turkey is a secular democracy or that Qaddaffi was a dictator; nor that Turkey is pro-western and Assad's Syria traditionally pro-Soviet. It makes no difference that Tunisia was protesting more about political corruption than anything to do with religion.

 

[Esmeralda]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong. There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I agree. Turkey is fine. These people who think this is a major crisis are completely ignorant, and many of them just plain idiots.

Then why is that the same exact thing that was said with Eygpt, Libya, and Syria?

Most of the people on this board don't know Turkey. Most of the people on this board don't know the Middle East. The countries in this region are not all the same. Compare it if you will to theAmericas. All of them Christian, none of them the same exact culture or government. Though there are many similarities between Canada and the US, there are also many differences. Central America, South America, Mexico--all unique, separate regions with different countries, cultures and governments. All being Christian does not make them all the same. Saying because Libya, Syria and Eqypt had revolutions, therefore Turkey will have a revolution is like saying Argentina, Mexico and Quatemala had revolutions, therefore the US will be the next to fall. It is ludicrous.

Modern Turkey was formed in 1923 by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. He is nearly idolized in Turkey. He is more to them than George Washington is to us. There is no way Turkey will go back on Ataturk's vision oa f a secular, democratic, modern Turkey. He and his vision are to Turks what the US constitution is to Americans. They will not trash his vision anymore than Americans will trash the Constitution. I lived in Turkey for two years. I know Turkey perhaps better than anyone on this board. And, in fact, I love Turkey. It is very dear to may heart, as are my many friends there.

This is not a major crisis. This is a protest against the policies and actions of the current Turkish president.

Egypt, Libya and Syria were ruled by viscious, exploitative dictators. Turkey is a completely different thing.

 

[Saigon]

Turkey is your ALLY, genius.

Not really. They block us at every turn. They are Muslim. The EU won't let them in. Turkey is not really an ally any more than Egypt was. They are Islamic and therefore essentially enemies, and most people here realize that.

Turkey is also an ALLY of Israel, by the way.

Ha. They are less allies of Israel than of us.

Anyway, it's moot. Now that Turkey is going up like the others, they'll soon be just another hardline Islamist country debating blowing up all their famous Roman ruins because they aren't Muslim.

This really is laugh out loud funny, you know...is it NOT true for instance, that Turkey is bulding a massive oil pipeline to supply Israel?

Isn't it true that this pipeline is a direct move to cut Iran out of the oil-supply loop in the region, a move long backed by the US?

 

[Meathead]

The fact that the protest started as an objection to placing a mall in a park in Constantinople and spread across the country makes it difficult to dismiss as isolated extremists raising a fuss. There is obviously a backlash to Erdogan's increasingly authoritarian rule and creeping Islamist-driven legislation and the protests are a reaction.

Btw, does anyone else find Saigon's and Esmeralda's pretentiousness tiresome? It is just possible that there are others on these boards who've traveled, studied and who may know a thing or two about foreign countries.

 

[Saigon]

The fact that the protest started as an objection to placing a mall in a park in Constantinople and spread across the country makes it difficult to dismiss as isolated extremists raising a fuss. There is obviously a backlash to Erdogan's increasingly authoritarian rule and creeping Islamist-driven legislation and the protests are a reaction.

I tend to agree - I think there is a genuine rift between Erdogan and Gul, and I think that is important. But perhaps a little like the 99% protests, I think it is important without being life-threatening to the country as a whole.

btw. Your whining is tiresome, but also strangely comforting. Keep it up.

btw (2) -Where on this thread do I mention having been in Turkey?

 

[Meathead]

The fact that the protest started as an objection to placing a mall in a park in Constantinople and spread across the country makes it difficult to dismiss as isolated extremists raising a fuss. There is obviously a backlash to Erdogan's increasingly authoritarian rule and creeping Islamist-driven legislation and the protests are a reaction.

I tend to agree - I think there is a genuine rift between Erdogan and Gul.

btw. Your whining is tiresome, but also strangely comforting. Keep it up.

Is that really the best you can do. Have you also been to Whinistan, yet again making you an expert on a subject?

 

[Esmeralda]

People need to understand, Turkey is NOT the Middle East. Turkey is not a Middle Eastern country. Turkey is Asia Minor. Turks see themselves as Asian, not Middle Eastern. Turkey is as much a part of Europe as it is Asia; just being a Muslim country does not make it a ME country. Turks do not speak Arabic. They do not see themselves as Arabs. They are not Arabs.

"Asia Minor, a peninsula also called Anatolia, comprises all of the Asian part of Turkey. The people there speak Turkish. The seas surrounding Asia Minor are the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Because Asia Minor is between Christian Europe and Asia, many different cultures have lived there. Remnants (small parts) of these cultures are there today.

Many great historical people, like the Hittites, Greeks, Persians, Armenians, Romans, Goths, Minoans, Byzantines and Turks, have lived in or occupied Asia Minor.The Roman Empire had a province called Asia, which was in Asia Minor. Later people started to call the entire continent Asia, so the peninsula Asia was called Asia Minor (little Asia)." Wiki

 

[Esmeralda]

[Turkey is a wonderful country. Saying it is falling apart because of protests in downtown Istanbul is ludicrous. That's like saying the US is falling apart because of any one protest there.

Denial........fully half of all political districs in Turkey had protests, many violent, according to the front-page article on the Wall Street Journal today.

"The Woman in Red" has quickly become an icon of the protests, a beautiful woman standing still while a thuggish police sprays her with tear gas.

(Reuters 6/3) - In her red cotton summer dress, necklace and white bag slung over her shoulder she might have been floating across the lawn at a garden party; but before her crouches a masked policeman firing teargas spray that sends her long hair billowing upwards.

Endlessly shared on social media and replicated as a cartoon on posters and stickers, the image of the woman in red has become the leitmotif for female protesters during days of violent anti-government demonstrations in Istanbul.

"That photo encapsulates the essence of this protest," says math student Esra at Besiktas, near the Bosphorus strait and one of the centres of this week's protests. "The violence of the police against peaceful protesters, people just trying to protect themselves and what they value."

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

It's just defend Muslims no matter what, no matter how awful they are, for some of you. You probably would complain if this sort of violence were happening proportionally in America, but since it's Muslims, you downplay it and say it's just fine.

Turkey is probably going down, though, like all the others, sadly, although it gives me great hopes now that Iran will go also. That would be very helpful to the United States' interests.

I'll explain it to you: It's because you are stupid and ignorant. Turks are not Arabs, dumbshit. Turkey is not anything like the Middle East or North Africa. There are a hundred other reasons, but you are too stupid to bother with.

 

[Esmeralda]

The fact that the protest started as an objection to placing a mall in a park in Constantinople and spread across the country makes it difficult to dismiss as isolated extremists raising a fuss. There is obviously a backlash to Erdogan's increasingly authoritarian rule and creeping Islamist-driven legislation and the protests are a reaction.

I tend to agree - I think there is a genuine rift between Erdogan and Gul, and I think that is important. But perhaps a little like the 99% protests, I think it is important without being life-threatening to the country as a whole.

btw. Your whining is tiresome, but also strangely comforting. Keep it up.

btw (2) -Where on this thread do I mention having been in Turkey?

Dislike by liberals of Erdogn has been going on since his was first elected Prime Minister. I was living in the country at the time. My Turkish friends are educated, professional and liberal. He is too religious. This has been growing and come to a head over what would seem a small thing: I suppose it could be the straw that broke the camel's back. There is no need or reason to think there will be a revolution. They just need to get a new PM. Turkey will not turn its back on Ataturk and his vision: never. I firmly believe that. He is as much to them as the American Constitution is to Americans. This is not a 'life threatening' crisis for the country, as was stated above.