*Turkey Next Shit Hole To Go Up In Puff Of Smoke*

[RoadVirus]

Time to nuke the place...We don't want this shit spreading.

No. Just let them kill each other. While they're doing that, at least they aren't plotting to kill us.

 

[JoeBlam]

If Turkey hadn't reneged on it's promise to allow US 4th ID to sweep down through the sunni-triangle to seize Saddam's weapons caches, there would have been no insurgency and Iraq would have been settled within weeks with legit elections, a new constitution, and a new government. Rumsfeld should never have allowed the invasion to begin without Turkey living up to their promise and Turkey should have been expelled from NATO for their treachery.

 

[Circe]

It's unbelievable.... the whole region is falling like a house of cards...

Yes. This is a remarkable time in history, for so many reasons! And we are here.....

I want to figure out what it MEANS, this serious Islam collapse of nations.

Here's my personal analysis for now: ALL, 100%, of the initial protests are always leftist. That's true in Istanbul this past week, too. They were protesting against Ergodan's creeping authoritarianism and his desire to change the constitution for a dictatorial third term, and of course the park --- a relative who is second-generation Turkish-American says it's the LAST park in Istanbul, going down of course to developers.

Then what has happened every single time is that after the chaos, the rightist fundamentalist Islamists take over. That will happen in Turkey, too, because the population is basically rightwing in the countryside, as everywhere, and Ergodan was ahead already, had ruled for ten years.

I think this will happen in America, too: leftists start it, rightists finish it and win it.

The leftist Muslims want to join the 20th century so they protest ------ bad move, because they are direly outnumbered by rightwing traditionalists.

 

[Circe]

There are, in fact, two Turkeys. One, geographically and politically western and the other east and deeply conservative and religious. Although I don't expect it, some kind of civil war is no impossible in the future.

Why don't you expect it? Civil war happened very fast in Libya and Syria. The situation in Egypt is not far from a civil war.

Civil war is pretty much the norm in these sorts of revolutions; the French had a bad civil war during the French Revolution. As usual, the left started it but the right won it (Napoleon). Usually a strong man does take over and re-establish the right.

I hope Pakistan goes up soon.

That's a BAD country, and any change would be for the better.............for us.

And Iran!! How can Iran avoid going up with all the other countries around it burning?

See, this is why it is best to avoid, avoid, avoid war as long as possible, wait till THEY attack, don't do it ourselves. Because so often they just fall apart and make war unnecessary. Postponement is the whole point of diplomacy, IMO.

 

[hoosier88]

Time to nuke the place...We don't want this shit spreading.

(My bold)

A fine way to repay Turkey's support during the Cold War. We had Atlas nukes, air base rights, listening posts, & on & in Turkey from the '50's on. Turkish troops served in the Korean War. U-2s flew out of Turkey. The Turkish military, unlike the military in Pakistan or Egypt, has tried to stay out of national politics. If they can manage the transition to a permanent civilian secular republic, it will be a good thing for the region & the World.

What is it, exactly, that we're objecting to about Turkey's development?

 

[Saigon]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.

There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

 

[Saigon]

Oh, and by the OP -no one who has ever been to Turkey would call it a shithole.

Always good to see a thread begin from a position of total ignorance.

Islam and those who follow it are unruly people, they will always be barbarians, evil, murderers, full of hate.

So...you are NOT full of hate?

 

[Saigon]

Time to nuke the place...We don't want this shit spreading.

No. Just let them kill each other. While they're doing that, at least they aren't plotting to kill us.

Turkey is your ALLY, genius.

Turkey is also an ALLY of Israel, by the way.

 

[Saigon]

There are, in fact, two Turkeys. One, geographically and politically western and the other east and deeply conservative and religious. Although I don't expect it, some kind of civil war is no impossible in the future.

That is true - Diyabakir feels a long way from Izmir.

I don't think civil war is at all likely. Perhaps not impossible, but I would imagine civil war is much more likely in some other countries in the region, i.e. Lebanon.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There are, in fact, two Turkeys. One, geographically and politically western and the other east and deeply conservative and religious. Although I don't expect it, some kind of civil war is no impossible in the future.

That is true - Diyabakir feels a long way from Izmir.

I don't think civil war is at all likely. Perhaps not impossible, but I would imagine civil war is much more likely in some other countries in the region, i.e. Lebanon.

It depends on the Army and where they see the future lying...with pro-gay Westernistas or Islamicists.

My bet is they go with the Islamacists once they think they can make it stick.

The Wests homophile culture truly disgusts most Turk military folks.

 

[Saigon]

It depends on the Army and where they see the future lying...with pro-gay Westernistas or Islamicists.

My bet is they go with the Islamacists once they think they can make it stick.

The Wests homophile culture truly disgusts most Turk military folks.

The Turkish Army are the appointed guardians of a secular republic, and have held that role for close to a 100 years now.

I see no reason at all to suggest the army's position has budged considerably since the days of Ataturk.

What I think is easy to forget about Turkey (and many other Islamic countries) is that there is no contradiction between being a devout Muslim and feeling intense loyalty to a secular state. It is strongly cultural in that it varies from state to state, but it is not usually an issue in Turkey (or Malaysia, Indonesia etc)

 

[JimBowie1958]

It depends on the Army and where they see the future lying...with pro-gay Westernistas or Islamicists.

My bet is they go with the Islamacists once they think they can make it stick.

The Wests homophile culture truly disgusts most Turk military folks.

The Turkish Army are the appointed guardians of a secular republic, and have held that role for close to a 100 years now.

I see no reason at all to suggest the army's position has budged considerably since the days of Ataturk.

You mean no reason other than that they let an Islamacist party remain in power finally, unlike several governments prior.

 

[Saigon]

JimBowie -

Erdogan won the election fair and square, but it was a very difficult decision for the military (to allow him to rule). I think they did the right thing, myself, because his party (AKP?) is moderate enough that I think they can walk the path between moderate Islam and secularism.

 

[hoosier88]

There are, in fact, two Turkeys. One, geographically and politically western and the other east and deeply conservative and religious. Although I don't expect it, some kind of civil war is no impossible in the future.

Why don't you expect it? Civil war happened very fast in Libya and Syria. The situation in Egypt is not far from a civil war.

Civil war is pretty much the norm in these sorts of revolutions; the French had a bad civil war during the French Revolution. As usual, the left started it but the right won it (Napoleon). Usually a strong man does take over and re-establish the right.

I hope Pakistan goes up soon.

That's a BAD country, and any change would be for the better.............for us.

And Iran!! How can Iran avoid going up with all the other countries around it burning?

See, this is why it is best to avoid, avoid, avoid war as long as possible, wait till THEY attack, don't do it ourselves. Because so often they just fall apart and make war unnecessary. Postponement is the whole point of diplomacy, IMO.

(My bold)

Pakistan? Does Pakistan have the equivalent of a Gorbachev tucked away somewhere, waiting to make sure that Pakistan has a soft landing if the government crashes? Not to my knowledge. If Pakistan looks to crash, will the military & ISI give up their cushy positions @ the peak of the pyramid that is Pakistan? I don't think so, both have consistently made bad political & security decisions since Pakistan's founding - three or four lost wars against India, the pursuit of nuke weapons/missles, the partition & eventual loss of E. Pakistan, fomenting/promoting the worst elements of the Taliban, diverting aid & $ (some to Pakistan, some to the mujahadeen) to their military & nukes programs). I think the Paki military/ISI would sooner commit mass suicide than give up their slots in the World.

& that doesn't begin to count what India would do. Would they take advantage of Paki instability to capture/neutralize Paki nukes? They would be v. tempted, I'm sure. If any of those weapons goes off, you'll have a v. nasty footprint of radioactivity in v. densely populated areas. Something to think about, as we wish disaster upon the World ...

 

[Circe]

Turkey is your ALLY, genius.

Not really. They block us at every turn. They are Muslim. The EU won't let them in. Turkey is not really an ally any more than Egypt was. They are Islamic and therefore essentially enemies, and most people here realize that.

Turkey is also an ALLY of Israel, by the way.

Ha. They are less allies of Israel than of us.

Anyway, it's moot. Now that Turkey is going up like the others, they'll soon be just another hardline Islamist country debating blowing up all their famous Roman ruins because they aren't Muslim.

 

[Circe]

JimBowie -

Erdogan won the election fair and square, but it was a very difficult decision for the military (to allow him to rule). I think they did the right thing, myself, because his party (AKP?) is moderate enough that I think they can walk the path between moderate Islam and secularism.

Except that so far they haven't: they are going Islamist. And of course now he wants an unconstitutional third term, uh-huh.

I knew he was a bad guy from the beginning, and he is.

 

[Circe]

Pakistan? Does Pakistan have the equivalent of a Gorbachev tucked away somewhere, waiting to make sure that Pakistan has a soft landing if the government crashes? Not to my knowledge. If Pakistan looks to crash, will the military & ISI give up their cushy positions @ the peak of the pyramid that is Pakistan? I don't think so, both have consistently made bad political & security decisions since Pakistan's founding - three or four lost wars against India, the pursuit of nuke weapons/missles, the partition & eventual loss of E. Pakistan, fomenting/promoting the worst elements of the Taliban, diverting aid & $ (some to Pakistan, some to the mujahadeen) to their military & nukes programs). I think the Paki military/ISI would sooner commit mass suicide than give up their slots in the World.

& that doesn't begin to count what India would do. Would they take advantage of Paki instability to capture/neutralize Paki nukes? They would be v. tempted, I'm sure. If any of those weapons goes off, you'll have a v. nasty footprint of radioactivity in v. densely populated areas. Something to think about, as we wish disaster upon the World ...

I hope India would capture the Paki nukes! That would be great. Those Pakis are WAAAAAAY too uncivilized to have something like that.

I don't care if they nuke themselves: why should I? Pakis are really bad people and constitute a large proportion of the world's Muslim terrorists of the worst kind. And they constantly immigrate all over, spreading Islam and primitive maltreatment of women and other bad things. It's like the chaos in Syria: for us, this is hardly a problem, it's a great advantage!! Same with Pakistan dissolving into civil war. It's a GOOD thing when the West's enemies fall into chaos. "Confusion to our enemies" is a traditional toast.

Besides, if Pakistan nukes itself, that would open up the world to use nukes as weapons, including us: we cannot be the second power to use nukes. But the third power? Possibly......

 

[High_Gravity]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.
There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I was told the same thing when riots started in Syria, Libya and Egypt a few years ago.

 

[Circe]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.
There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I was told the same thing when riots started in Syria, Libya and Egypt a few years ago.

This firestorm in the Mideast is a whole lot better example of the domino theory than the countries around Vietnam ever were.

And note it's countries near each other going up --- the far east Muslim countries, such as Pakistan and Bangladesh haven't gone up yet.

All in all, this is the most hopeful development for the West since the Muslim rising started several years ago, let's say 9/11/2001. They are collapsing by themselves. Each country is completely disintegrating, as Kerry correctly remarked today about Syria. They'll take years to recover, if they do, and that is very good for the West. At least if we don't allow refugees in!! That would be key.

 

[ekrem]

Turkey is fine.

A few days of riot hardly mean the country is about to fall to pieces. It's foundations are FAR too old and too strong.
There is cleary any ideological divide between Secularists and Moderates, but nowhere as deep a divide as we see in the US these days.

I was told the same thing when riots started in Syria, Libya and Egypt a few years ago.

In 2007 there were much bigger protests with people in the millions going to the streets.
Republic Protests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2 months later the government won the elections by increasing their votes by 12%
Turkish general election, 2007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The current protests are much smaller in scale, but they've anarchistic and violent elements.
The biggest number I've encountered comes from Stratfor which put protestors at Taksim-Istanbul at 10.000.
In a city of 14 million people.
Stratfor

Areas were protests are taking place:

Many of the areas where protests were reported are also areas where the Republican People's Party would be expected to bring out a large number of supporters.

That's how Turkey is currently ruled
yellow = current government

And off course, elections in Turkey are democratic as attested by OSCE
oscepa.org