Trickle Up Defies Gravity

[Skull Pilot]

Answer the question I asked

Paying the Debts of the United States is a Power and Obligation of Congress.

That is not an answer to the question I asked

Charge it and put it on the Peoples' tab? It already happened.

SO what?

You're never going to pay a dime of it back so what do you care?

The poor pay general, federal taxes.

And?

We already know that the taxes do not cover our spending so you're not paying anything on the debt.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Marie Antoinette didn't see it either......(well, she did later while on the gallows)

I guess we should start calling Skull Pilot “Marie”

You mean the guy who wants everyone to keep more of their own money?

Unlike you who wants to take as much as possible

I don’t want to take as much as possible. You should not have to make shit up to win an argument. Stick to the facts

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

And you think I should listen to your sage advice on the economy when you obviously don't know shit

How is it, "their money" if it is being added to the "Peoples' debt"?

It is their money. They earned it.

If you got a job you might understand that.

And the only thing adding to the debt is governemnt spending

 

[Flash]

Only these stupid Moon Bats think we will have prosperity by the filthy ass government taking money away from the people that earned it and giving it away to the people that didn't earn it.

Then they wonder why we ridicule them for being morons.

A rich person is a much better redistributor of wealth by spending money and creating jobs than the government is by stealing the money from the earners and giving it to the non earners.

A rich person is a better distributor if they distribute and spend their money. Sure. But they haven’t exactly been doing that have they? The top have been earning the vast majority of new Money over the past few decades and are richer than ever while the bottom and middle class have stayed stagnant. You really don’t see an economic problem with that?

They have been doing a whole lot better job than the filthy ass government, that waste tons of money and gives it away to every Jamal, Jose and Muhammad in the world, haven't they?

Under Obama not only did poverty increased but also family income decreased and income disparity increase but economic growth was dismal as hell. If that is an example of what we can expect with the stupid idea of "trickle up" Liberal economics then it has failed. Socialism always fail at some level or another. Best case scenario is that it will only result in piss poor economic growth. Worse case is that the economic structure of the country fails like we have saw many times..

You forgot to respond to questions that are about wealth inequality. You don’t see a problem with the vast majority of wealth vacuuming up to the top 1%? You think that is a pathway towards a healthy economy?

This question has nothing to do with obama or progressive economics so don’t bring them up in your response. Im asking a simple question. Give a straight forward answer

Unlike (obviously) you I am not envious of what other people make. I am just concerned about keep the money that I earned to spend on my family. I could care less if somebody else is richer than I am.

I do not like the idea of the filthy government taking the money that I earned and giving it to somebody else.

Because that is what the welfare state is all about. That is what Liberal economics is all about. That is the platform that Democrats run on. Steal money from the taxpayers and give it to the people that keep them in office.

There are legitimate functions of government. Defense, courts, police etc. I don't mind paying my fair share of those things. I also don't mind paying my share of the roads that I use because after all there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

This big bloated corrupt federal government at $4 trillion a year in spending is a big welfare check for a lot of assholes. It is not just the big city shithole welfare queens or the illegals or the Muslim refugees or the DACA shitheads. It also includes crony capitalism. That is why Wall Street backed Obama and Clinton. Obama was Wall Street's sugar daddy. He gave them hundreds of billions. They owned Crooked Hillary lot, stock and barrel.

It also includes foreign interest. A lot of people suck on the teats of our big government and that is despicable.

If you are so concerned about income disparity then you will condemn the Obama Administration because not only did he increase poverty, put us tremendously in debt, have dismal economic growth and decreased family income but he increased income disparity. You must hate the sonofabitch, huh?

 

[EverCurious]

Even if we want to argue that the average family only gets $50/y due to the Fed tax cut, lets break that down into something reasonable and logical for a family to buy. Kraft Mac-n-cheese and Ball Park hot dogs - iconic American food, cheap, easy, and tasty.

Now we presume that the grocery stores have optimal hot dogs and mac-n-cheese on hand, but when there's a run on folks buying more than usual, they order more than usual.

Kraft and Ball-Park we presume makes an optimal amount of this stuff to send to the stores, but when the stores are ordering more than usual, they have to make more than usual.

The pig and dairy farmers we presume produce an optimal amount of raw material to send to Kraft and Ball-Park, but when they're ordering more than usual, the pig and dairy farmers have to up their production as well.

New jobs shoveling shit and feeding livestock are created - and new families have a few more bucks to spend on Kraft Mac-n-cheese with Ball-Park hot dogs. Or whatever else these folks decide to buy, from food to cars to cell phones, computers, or even spending in the services to eat out or whatever. More coffee from Star Bucks, more hamburgers from McDonalds and again demand at the bottom of the chain goes up.


That's just one side of the economy, the supply demand side in simplistic form, driven by small tax cuts for the poor. If we look at the middle class, these folks are already eating decent so instead they maybe eat out an extra time a week, or maybe they go on vacation and pay for an Alaska tour or go to Disney Land/World, maybe they go to the movies, maybe they buy new linens, maybe they buy a new car and sell their old one to some poorer folks who then can get a better job further from home.

Then there's the rich folks ya'll like to lie about and diss all the time. We have many choices on how to spend our tax cuts, we can invest in businesses, we can invest it in the market, we can spend it. It's actually unlikely that we'll throw it in the bank/not spend it honestly. I mean I'm sure there is some rich prepper type out there who is worried about some shit so they sit on it, but by and large we rich folks don't /have/ to save money like the rest of you, we've already got our retirements planned and paid for, we've already got a healthy "emergency" fund set aside, we've already got our financial profile cooking, so instead we spend it... fast and loose. Like literally half my 2 car garage is filled with crap to go to Salvation Army right now, not broken or cheap shit either, just stuff I don't want anymore - an entire kitchen worth of dishes, tableware, and cookware simply because I changed my kitchen from blue to green, then after a few months I decided I wanted more contrast with my green counter tops so now I've gone to red. Us rich folks do this stupid crap all the time. Its like I have a full set of Americraft (really nice stainless oil filled cookware that's like $200-$500 a pot/pan) and yet in the past two years I've bought five different boxes pot/pan sets, only to give four of them away. (I'm using Rachael Ray's now; really like em.) The funny part is that even though I've replaced all this crap in the past year or two; I've got... at least 2000 items ear marked for further research and/or purchase on Amazon. I'm legit in a tizzy atm because I cannot find a ceramic coated half sheet. No one has made them yet, so I'm talking to CasaWare asking them to custom make me a half sheet and 2/3 sheet to match my other CasaWare baking pans. The dumb part? I know that CasaWare scratches so easy it's not even funny, I destroyed three pans just making thanksgiving dinner this year, but the colors are perfect (red and cream) and they work so great that I don't even care that I have to replace them every month, it doesn't matter to me because I can afford to "waste" $20-30 a pop for a baking pan. And that's just my kitchen... I also changed out the whole kit-n-kabootle in my bathrooms (shower doors, shower curtains, rugs, towels, towel bars, even the poofs - wanted a new color in every bathroom; new toilets too this time around, the guest toilet was fucking almond, gross... they're all white now. I also repainted the entire house - new colors, which meant new furniture, new carpet, new wood flooring, new rugs, new curtains, new light switches and outlet covers, new light fixtures, new keypad door locks (went from brass to stainless.) On and on, this is what we wealthy folks do, and when we do this silly crap there are more people getting jobs or maybe just getting a "bigger" pay check - interior designers, painters, carpet manufacturers and installers, seamstresses (to adjust my shower curtains from 85" long to 83" long,) Vivint installers, GCI cable installers, etc. etc. And those folks then have more to spend too, maybe those companies hire new employees, maybe they open up a showroom, maybe another location, or maybe they just eat out two more times a month and ramp up restaurants (Speaking of, mmmm they opened up a Panda Express out here last week - pepper chicken is my new favoritest food in the world heh) Or maybe they lower their prices and more people can afford that stuff...

What percent of your total net worth were all these baubles?
If you don't mind, what IS your approx total net worth?
Net income?
It's germaine to the discussion, because we do not know if you're worth half a million or 480 million. It makes a difference.

I would disagree with your assessment of the relevance here, net worth being largely irrelevant to my statements which were about monthly spending ability/habits [aka take home,] but I'll play along since I'm curious.

I haven't checked with my guy today but last week I was sitting at $1.5 on the market [after my "doing my part" investment spending spree, I consider that $500k as lost money, but it is possible one or more of those businesses will pan out and pay me back.] Our take home, with me playing at "retired" again, is right around $50-60k/y and last time I checked [before Xmas] we had right around $200k in the bank.

As for how much that stuff cost, I honestly have no clue... I can tell you I've spent somewhere around $10k on my computer alone [that's just because I made a list of it's parts and costs System Builder - FX-8350 4.0GHz 8-Core, Radeon R9 290X 4GB DirectCU II (2-Way CrossFire) - PCPartPicker back when I was doing a mod build log, it doesn't include all the water cooling stuff [fittings, hard line and tubing, etc. which were over $2k] but that's the only cumulative costs I've really paid any attention to. Basically so long as I don't spend "too much," I'm free to spend everything in the main checking account [not the one with the $200k-ish as that's our "big purchase/emergency" account, but the account the paychecks go into every month.] Uhm if I guesstimate our house expenses (minus food & gas which are both "fluid" in amount, and economic contributors in themselves) I'd say my husband and I spend about $20-25k a year on "stuff"

 

[Slade3200]

You really don’t see an economic problem with that?

Marie Antoinette didn't see it either......(well, she did later while on the gallows)

I guess we should start calling Skull Pilot “Marie”

You mean the guy who wants everyone to keep more of their own money?

Unlike you who wants to take as much as possible

I don’t want to take as much as possible. You should not have to make shit up to win an argument. Stick to the facts

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

And you think I should listen to your sage advice on the economy when you obviously don't know shit

Haha, if you really think that was what I was trying to say then I think you are the one with the tiny brain.

My “advice” stands for itself and you’ve been unable to produce a legit counter arguement or even reflect an understanding of economic systems. Keep trying though.

 

[Slade3200]

Only these stupid Moon Bats think we will have prosperity by the filthy ass government taking money away from the people that earned it and giving it away to the people that didn't earn it.

Then they wonder why we ridicule them for being morons.

A rich person is a much better redistributor of wealth by spending money and creating jobs than the government is by stealing the money from the earners and giving it to the non earners.

A rich person is a better distributor if they distribute and spend their money. Sure. But they haven’t exactly been doing that have they? The top have been earning the vast majority of new Money over the past few decades and are richer than ever while the bottom and middle class have stayed stagnant. You really don’t see an economic problem with that?

They have been doing a whole lot better job than the filthy ass government, that waste tons of money and gives it away to every Jamal, Jose and Muhammad in the world, haven't they?

Under Obama not only did poverty increased but also family income decreased and income disparity increase but economic growth was dismal as hell. If that is an example of what we can expect with the stupid idea of "trickle up" Liberal economics then it has failed. Socialism always fail at some level or another. Best case scenario is that it will only result in piss poor economic growth. Worse case is that the economic structure of the country fails like we have saw many times..

You forgot to respond to questions that are about wealth inequality. You don’t see a problem with the vast majority of wealth vacuuming up to the top 1%? You think that is a pathway towards a healthy economy?

This question has nothing to do with obama or progressive economics so don’t bring them up in your response. Im asking a simple question. Give a straight forward answer

Unlike (obviously) you I am not envious of what other people make. I am just concerned about keep the money that I earned to spend on my family. I could care less if somebody else is richer than I am.

I do not like the idea of the filthy government taking the money that I earned and giving it to somebody else.

Because that is what the welfare state is all about. That is what Liberal economics is all about. That is the platform that Democrats run on. Steal money from the taxpayers and give it to the people that keep them in office.

There are legitimate functions of government. Defense, courts, police etc. I don't mind paying my fair share of those things. I also don't mind paying my share of the roads that I use because after all there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

This big bloated corrupt federal government at $4 trillion a year in spending is a big welfare check for a lot of assholes. It is not just the big city shithole welfare queens or the illegals or the Muslim refugees or the DACA shitheads. It also includes crony capitalism. That is why Wall Street backed Obama and Clinton. Obama was Wall Street's sugar daddy. He gave them hundreds of billions. They owned Crooked Hillary lot, stock and barrel.

It also includes foreign interest. A lot of people suck on the teats of our big government and that is despicable.

If you are so concerned about income disparity then you will condemn the Obama Administration because not only did he increase poverty, put us tremendously in debt, have dismal economic growth and decreased family income but he increased income disparity. You must hate the sonofabitch, huh?

Wow, I’m all that garbage you pumped out you’d think you could have at least come close to answering a direct question. I even asked that you not inject all that unrelated garbage but you just couldn’t help it could you? Haha.

Want to try again?

 

[danielpalos]

Paying the Debts of the United States is a Power and Obligation of Congress.

That is not an answer to the question I asked

Charge it and put it on the Peoples' tab? It already happened.

SO what?

You're never going to pay a dime of it back so what do you care?

The poor pay general, federal taxes.

And?

We already know that the taxes do not cover our spending so you're not paying anything on the debt.

Paying the debt is in our Constitution, not providing for the common offense or general warfare.

 

[danielpalos]

I guess we should start calling Skull Pilot “Marie”

You mean the guy who wants everyone to keep more of their own money?

Unlike you who wants to take as much as possible

I don’t want to take as much as possible. You should not have to make shit up to win an argument. Stick to the facts

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

And you think I should listen to your sage advice on the economy when you obviously don't know shit

How is it, "their money" if it is being added to the "Peoples' debt"?

It is their money. They earned it.

If you got a job you might understand that.

And the only thing adding to the debt is governemnt spending

End our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror; they are not in our Constitution. Providing for the general welfare is in our Constitution.

 

[Deno]

TRICKLE UP DEFIES GRAVITY

Income distribution

{1} 1,365,856 earn more than $388,000 a year

{2} 68,292,856 earn less than $70,000 a year

https://tinyurl.com/yaw8yy3g


TRICKLE DOWN
If the IRS gave tax bracket {1} a $1,000 tax break they in turn could add $13,665,856,000 to the economy but the rich will not add it to the economy, they will put it in the bank to do nothing


TRICKLE UP
If the IRS gave tax bracket {2} a $1,000 tax break they in turn could add $68,292,856,000 to the economy because they will spend it, buying new things from houses to shoes to a new car which adds to the economy making more shoes, the car to a new house.

Now ask yourself; which is best for our economy

( ) Trickle down

( ) Trickle up

Your premise is beyond stupid......

It's hard for me to believe that your brain

can generate enough power for you

to type this liberal tripe.....

I have one simple question for you.....

Where do the people in your Trickle up

example get their money from in the first place?

You liberal's are ate friggin up with dumb ass....

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Even if we want to argue that the average family only gets $50/y due to the Fed tax cut, lets break that down into something reasonable and logical for a family to buy. Kraft Mac-n-cheese and Ball Park hot dogs - iconic American food, cheap, easy, and tasty.

Now we presume that the grocery stores have optimal hot dogs and mac-n-cheese on hand, but when there's a run on folks buying more than usual, they order more than usual.

Kraft and Ball-Park we presume makes an optimal amount of this stuff to send to the stores, but when the stores are ordering more than usual, they have to make more than usual.

The pig and dairy farmers we presume produce an optimal amount of raw material to send to Kraft and Ball-Park, but when they're ordering more than usual, the pig and dairy farmers have to up their production as well.

New jobs shoveling shit and feeding livestock are created - and new families have a few more bucks to spend on Kraft Mac-n-cheese with Ball-Park hot dogs. Or whatever else these folks decide to buy, from food to cars to cell phones, computers, or even spending in the services to eat out or whatever. More coffee from Star Bucks, more hamburgers from McDonalds and again demand at the bottom of the chain goes up.


That's just one side of the economy, the supply demand side in simplistic form, driven by small tax cuts for the poor. If we look at the middle class, these folks are already eating decent so instead they maybe eat out an extra time a week, or maybe they go on vacation and pay for an Alaska tour or go to Disney Land/World, maybe they go to the movies, maybe they buy new linens, maybe they buy a new car and sell their old one to some poorer folks who then can get a better job further from home.

Then there's the rich folks ya'll like to lie about and diss all the time. We have many choices on how to spend our tax cuts, we can invest in businesses, we can invest it in the market, we can spend it. It's actually unlikely that we'll throw it in the bank/not spend it honestly. I mean I'm sure there is some rich prepper type out there who is worried about some shit so they sit on it, but by and large we rich folks don't /have/ to save money like the rest of you, we've already got our retirements planned and paid for, we've already got a healthy "emergency" fund set aside, we've already got our financial profile cooking, so instead we spend it... fast and loose. Like literally half my 2 car garage is filled with crap to go to Salvation Army right now, not broken or cheap shit either, just stuff I don't want anymore - an entire kitchen worth of dishes, tableware, and cookware simply because I changed my kitchen from blue to green, then after a few months I decided I wanted more contrast with my green counter tops so now I've gone to red. Us rich folks do this stupid crap all the time. Its like I have a full set of Americraft (really nice stainless oil filled cookware that's like $200-$500 a pot/pan) and yet in the past two years I've bought five different boxes pot/pan sets, only to give four of them away. (I'm using Rachael Ray's now; really like em.) The funny part is that even though I've replaced all this crap in the past year or two; I've got... at least 2000 items ear marked for further research and/or purchase on Amazon. I'm legit in a tizzy atm because I cannot find a ceramic coated half sheet. No one has made them yet, so I'm talking to CasaWare asking them to custom make me a half sheet and 2/3 sheet to match my other CasaWare baking pans. The dumb part? I know that CasaWare scratches so easy it's not even funny, I destroyed three pans just making thanksgiving dinner this year, but the colors are perfect (red and cream) and they work so great that I don't even care that I have to replace them every month, it doesn't matter to me because I can afford to "waste" $20-30 a pop for a baking pan. And that's just my kitchen... I also changed out the whole kit-n-kabootle in my bathrooms (shower doors, shower curtains, rugs, towels, towel bars, even the poofs - wanted a new color in every bathroom; new toilets too this time around, the guest toilet was fucking almond, gross... they're all white now. I also repainted the entire house - new colors, which meant new furniture, new carpet, new wood flooring, new rugs, new curtains, new light switches and outlet covers, new light fixtures, new keypad door locks (went from brass to stainless.) On and on, this is what we wealthy folks do, and when we do this silly crap there are more people getting jobs or maybe just getting a "bigger" pay check - interior designers, painters, carpet manufacturers and installers, seamstresses (to adjust my shower curtains from 85" long to 83" long,) Vivint installers, GCI cable installers, etc. etc. And those folks then have more to spend too, maybe those companies hire new employees, maybe they open up a showroom, maybe another location, or maybe they just eat out two more times a month and ramp up restaurants (Speaking of, mmmm they opened up a Panda Express out here last week - pepper chicken is my new favoritest food in the world heh) Or maybe they lower their prices and more people can afford that stuff...

What percent of your total net worth were all these baubles?
If you don't mind, what IS your approx total net worth?
Net income?
It's germaine to the discussion, because we do not know if you're worth half a million or 480 million. It makes a difference.

I would disagree with your assessment of the relevance here, net worth being largely irrelevant to my statements which were about monthly spending ability/habits [aka take home,] but I'll play along since I'm curious.

I haven't checked with my guy today but last week I was sitting at $1.5 on the market [after my "doing my part" investment spending spree, I consider that $500k as lost money, but it is possible one or more of those businesses will pan out and pay me back.] Our take home, with me playing at "retired" again, is right around $50-60k/y and last time I checked [before Xmas] we had right around $200k in the bank.

As for how much that stuff cost, I honestly have no clue... I can tell you I've spent somewhere around $10k on my computer alone [that's just because I made a list of it's parts and costs System Builder - FX-8350 4.0GHz 8-Core, Radeon R9 290X 4GB DirectCU II (2-Way CrossFire) - PCPartPicker back when I was doing a mod build log, it doesn't include all the water cooling stuff [fittings, hard line and tubing, etc. which were over $2k] but that's the only cumulative costs I've really paid any attention to. Basically so long as I don't spend "too much," I'm free to spend everything in the main checking account [not the one with the $200k-ish as that's our "big purchase/emergency" account, but the account the paychecks go into every month.] Uhm if I guesstimate our house expenses (minus food & gas which are both "fluid" in amount, and economic contributors in themselves) I'd say my husband and I spend about $20-25k a year on "stuff"

You're upper middle class...the problem is what we're allowing the top one percent to get away with, not middle class. You getting a tax break is a good thing.
People who make as much as Warren Buffet, well....ask Buffet what HE thinks, and he thinks "what he thinks" also applies to people who make a tenth what he makes.
That is still way way above your spot on the food chain.
You're in the earning class that deserves tax breaks.

I mean, seriously, is your view of liberals so distorted that you think we whine about anyone who earns a living? You're part of the group that creates DEMAND for goods and services and the fact is, what YOU spend is significant.

Giving tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions, in tax breaks, to someone who is worth hundreds of millions or a few billion, isn't going to inspire them to suddenly spend another 25% of their income on goods and services.
And even if they did, that doesn't constitute the bulk of consumer demand, purchasing by people in YOUR spot on the totem pole does, and I daresay pretty much everyone below your spot as well.

Sorry, hate to burst your bubble, but for the folks getting the best tax breaks, you ARE still the riff raff, even if you're not.

By the way, if you're going to spend that kinda bread on a workstation, consider getting something from BOXX...much more bang for the buck!
For eight grand, wouldn't you rather have 18 or 36 cores?

 

[nat4900]

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

No, no...you're NOT the Marie Antoinette...you're one of the dumb peasants that sided with the royalty.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Which is why I mentioned the bit about the stupidity of turning shit work into middle class level careers.

Franky flips fries for $8.00 per hour. He skilled at it, so a year later, he still flips fries for $9.00 per hour. Now he wants $15.00 per hour. Employer states the job pays $9.00 per hour tops.

Franky misses work so he can march around out in front of the store demanding $15.00 per hour. Employer needs a fry flipper, so fires Franky for not showing up for work and hires Freddy, who agrees to fry-flip for $8.00 per hour.

Who is the idiot?

Franky, and his Dad, and his grandfather, all used to have decent paying blue collar jobs. If those jobs hadn't all gotten outsourced, Franky wouldn't HAVE to be flipping fries. And he wouldn't NEED to be asking for $15/hr at that job, because he would have a BETTER job.

I am actually A-OK with keeping minimum wage jobs low paying, long as there is a large number of jobs the next step up the ladder for people with Franky's intellect and trainability.
Face it, we have a generation of people who are of a certain age where retraining either won't get them that whiz bang upper management job, or for whom it is just too late. But they still need to have opportunities to put a roof over their head and food on the table.
Hundreds of thousands (even millions) of middle age blue collar folks in the Rust Belt aren't all going to be able to become day traders or sell insurance to each other or be CEO's. And they don't have the bread to go to college either.

Poverty sucks, poverty SHOULD suck, but it should not be a death sentence or a generational malaise that kills off hope for future generations. We need to make opportunities available for the average joe who learned to play by the set of rules which were in place before all the outsourcing become reality.
If we can't do that, then those shit minimum wage jobs have to be able to be living wage, or the Franky's of today will need subsidies to help them make it.
Just giving Franky's KIDS a leg up on their higher education alone would make for a shit ton of VERY grateful Frankys. At least they would know that their kids get an even chance.

I don't care if you agree or not, that IS "the American way"...it sure was the whole time I was growing up in the postwar era.

If we don't invest in the future generations, we'll be stuck with even bigger problems down the line. If you think raising the minimum wage is expensive, wait till you get a load of how much generational ignorance is going to cost.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Which is why I mentioned the bit about the stupidity of turning shit work into middle class level careers.

Franky flips fries for $8.00 per hour. He skilled at it, so a year later, he still flips fries for $9.00 per hour. Now he wants $15.00 per hour. Employer states the job pays $9.00 per hour tops.

Franky misses work so he can march around out in front of the store demanding $15.00 per hour. Employer needs a fry flipper, so fires Franky for not showing up for work and hires Freddy, who agrees to fry-flip for $8.00 per hour.

Who is the idiot?

Franky, and his Dad, and his grandfather, all used to have decent paying blue collar jobs. If those jobs hadn't all gotten outsourced, Franky wouldn't HAVE to be flipping fries. And he wouldn't NEED to be asking for $15/hr at that job, because he would have a BETTER job.

I am actually A-OK with keeping minimum wage jobs low paying, long as there is a large number of jobs the next step up the ladder for people with Franky's intellect and trainability.
Face it, we have a generation of people who are of a certain age where retraining either won't get them that whiz bang upper management job, or for whom it is just too late. But they still need to have opportunities to put a roof over their head and food on the table.
Hundreds of thousands (even millions) of middle age blue collar folks in the Rust Belt aren't all going to be able to become day traders or sell insurance to each other or be CEO's. And they don't have the bread to go to college either.

Poverty sucks, poverty SHOULD suck, but it should not be a death sentence or a generational malaise that kills off hope for future generations. We need to make opportunities available for the average joe who learned to play by the set of rules which were in place before all the outsourcing become reality.
If we can't do that, then those shit minimum wage jobs have to be able to be living wage, or the Franky's of today will need subsidies to help them make it.
Just giving Franky's KIDS a leg up on their higher education alone would make for a shit ton of VERY grateful Frankys. At least they would know that their kids get an even chance.

I don't care if you agree or not, that IS "the American way"...it sure was the whole time I was growing up in the postwar era.

If we don't invest in the future generations, we'll be stuck with even bigger problems down the line. If you think raising the minimum wage is expensive, wait till you get a load of how much generational ignorance is going to cost.

Sorry, but Franky is a 35 year old illegal invader. Like others of his group, he took the fry-flipper position because he had no marketable skills. His dad and grandfather are back in his country of origin and have no part in his story. Since he has no other skills and is not working to acquire any, he sought with the encouragement of our home-grown Socialists to force his unskilled job into a middle-class career position.

He is not a future generation. He is an illegal invader, filling monkey jobs that were traditionally business training for American adolescents, who are generally unemployed due to the influx of foreign unskilled workers.

Work is worth what it is worth to the employer. A "living wage" is not owed.

Charity at the barrel of a gun is not the venue of government. It is assuredly NOT the "American Way".

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Sorry, but Franky is a 35 year old illegal invader. Like others of his group, he took the fry-flipper position because he had no marketable skills.

Sorry, but these are facts:
Are more undocumented immigrants leaving than coming?

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

 

[Oldstyle]

God, another liberal who thinks they understand why jobs are created! For about the hundredth time..."demand" does not create jobs! The anticipation of profit is what induces investment of capital in new businesses or the expansion of existing ones! You can have tons of demand...but if the product or service you're thinking of creating doesn't generate a substantial enough profit to justify risking capital...THEN IT ISN'T GOING TO BE RISKED!!!

Fuck, another Trump zealot that has no clue how a business operators. Let me help you out here, moron.

FedEx is not going to hire more people just because they are making more profit, they will only do so when demand for their service dictates them doing so.

GM is not going to hire more people just because they are making more profits, they will do so when demand for their product dictates them doing so.

Now go home and wait for the next GOP talking points email and come back and try again.

So you think that GM is going to hire when they're NOT making profits? That they'll hire thousands more to build a car or truck that they're not making money on? You don't have the faintest idea how businesses operate!

Another lying partisan hack. Is this all you Trump zealots have left is to lie about people? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Did you want to tell me WHAT it is you think is a "lie" in my statement...or does calling it a lie suffice for you? You've come on the board and posted things claiming to be in the know about business and economics. I've pointed out that it's more anticipation of profit that makes businesses expand and hire...not just demand because if they're not making more money by getting bigger...they're not going to invest capital in getting bigger!
Your response to my point was angry bluster. So who's the partisan hack?

Your lie is that I said companies would hire even if they were losing money. Never said such a thing not implied it.

Corporations in this country have been seeing record profits over the last few years, without the tax cut. This stupid idea that now they will finally have enough money to hire people is just a right wing fairy tale.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

When did I say that you claimed companies would hire even if they were losing money? YOU claimed that demand was what caused companies to hire and I simply pointed out that demand without a potential to make profits is NOT going to incentivize companies to expand!

 

[EverCurious]

Even if we want to argue that the average family only gets $50/y due to the Fed tax cut, lets break that down into something reasonable and logical for a family to buy. Kraft Mac-n-cheese and Ball Park hot dogs - iconic American food, cheap, easy, and tasty.

Now we presume that the grocery stores have optimal hot dogs and mac-n-cheese on hand, but when there's a run on folks buying more than usual, they order more than usual.

Kraft and Ball-Park we presume makes an optimal amount of this stuff to send to the stores, but when the stores are ordering more than usual, they have to make more than usual.

The pig and dairy farmers we presume produce an optimal amount of raw material to send to Kraft and Ball-Park, but when they're ordering more than usual, the pig and dairy farmers have to up their production as well.

New jobs shoveling shit and feeding livestock are created - and new families have a few more bucks to spend on Kraft Mac-n-cheese with Ball-Park hot dogs. Or whatever else these folks decide to buy, from food to cars to cell phones, computers, or even spending in the services to eat out or whatever. More coffee from Star Bucks, more hamburgers from McDonalds and again demand at the bottom of the chain goes up.


That's just one side of the economy, the supply demand side in simplistic form, driven by small tax cuts for the poor. If we look at the middle class, these folks are already eating decent so instead they maybe eat out an extra time a week, or maybe they go on vacation and pay for an Alaska tour or go to Disney Land/World, maybe they go to the movies, maybe they buy new linens, maybe they buy a new car and sell their old one to some poorer folks who then can get a better job further from home.

Then there's the rich folks ya'll like to lie about and diss all the time. We have many choices on how to spend our tax cuts, we can invest in businesses, we can invest it in the market, we can spend it. It's actually unlikely that we'll throw it in the bank/not spend it honestly. I mean I'm sure there is some rich prepper type out there who is worried about some shit so they sit on it, but by and large we rich folks don't /have/ to save money like the rest of you, we've already got our retirements planned and paid for, we've already got a healthy "emergency" fund set aside, we've already got our financial profile cooking, so instead we spend it... fast and loose. Like literally half my 2 car garage is filled with crap to go to Salvation Army right now, not broken or cheap shit either, just stuff I don't want anymore - an entire kitchen worth of dishes, tableware, and cookware simply because I changed my kitchen from blue to green, then after a few months I decided I wanted more contrast with my green counter tops so now I've gone to red. Us rich folks do this stupid crap all the time. Its like I have a full set of Americraft (really nice stainless oil filled cookware that's like $200-$500 a pot/pan) and yet in the past two years I've bought five different boxes pot/pan sets, only to give four of them away. (I'm using Rachael Ray's now; really like em.) The funny part is that even though I've replaced all this crap in the past year or two; I've got... at least 2000 items ear marked for further research and/or purchase on Amazon. I'm legit in a tizzy atm because I cannot find a ceramic coated half sheet. No one has made them yet, so I'm talking to CasaWare asking them to custom make me a half sheet and 2/3 sheet to match my other CasaWare baking pans. The dumb part? I know that CasaWare scratches so easy it's not even funny, I destroyed three pans just making thanksgiving dinner this year, but the colors are perfect (red and cream) and they work so great that I don't even care that I have to replace them every month, it doesn't matter to me because I can afford to "waste" $20-30 a pop for a baking pan. And that's just my kitchen... I also changed out the whole kit-n-kabootle in my bathrooms (shower doors, shower curtains, rugs, towels, towel bars, even the poofs - wanted a new color in every bathroom; new toilets too this time around, the guest toilet was fucking almond, gross... they're all white now. I also repainted the entire house - new colors, which meant new furniture, new carpet, new wood flooring, new rugs, new curtains, new light switches and outlet covers, new light fixtures, new keypad door locks (went from brass to stainless.) On and on, this is what we wealthy folks do, and when we do this silly crap there are more people getting jobs or maybe just getting a "bigger" pay check - interior designers, painters, carpet manufacturers and installers, seamstresses (to adjust my shower curtains from 85" long to 83" long,) Vivint installers, GCI cable installers, etc. etc. And those folks then have more to spend too, maybe those companies hire new employees, maybe they open up a showroom, maybe another location, or maybe they just eat out two more times a month and ramp up restaurants (Speaking of, mmmm they opened up a Panda Express out here last week - pepper chicken is my new favoritest food in the world heh) Or maybe they lower their prices and more people can afford that stuff...

What percent of your total net worth were all these baubles?
If you don't mind, what IS your approx total net worth?
Net income?
It's germaine to the discussion, because we do not know if you're worth half a million or 480 million. It makes a difference.

I would disagree with your assessment of the relevance here, net worth being largely irrelevant to my statements which were about monthly spending ability/habits [aka take home,] but I'll play along since I'm curious.

I haven't checked with my guy today but last week I was sitting at $1.5 on the market [after my "doing my part" investment spending spree, I consider that $500k as lost money, but it is possible one or more of those businesses will pan out and pay me back.] Our take home, with me playing at "retired" again, is right around $50-60k/y and last time I checked [before Xmas] we had right around $200k in the bank.

As for how much that stuff cost, I honestly have no clue... I can tell you I've spent somewhere around $10k on my computer alone [that's just because I made a list of it's parts and costs System Builder - FX-8350 4.0GHz 8-Core, Radeon R9 290X 4GB DirectCU II (2-Way CrossFire) - PCPartPicker back when I was doing a mod build log, it doesn't include all the water cooling stuff [fittings, hard line and tubing, etc. which were over $2k] but that's the only cumulative costs I've really paid any attention to. Basically so long as I don't spend "too much," I'm free to spend everything in the main checking account [not the one with the $200k-ish as that's our "big purchase/emergency" account, but the account the paychecks go into every month.] Uhm if I guesstimate our house expenses (minus food & gas which are both "fluid" in amount, and economic contributors in themselves) I'd say my husband and I spend about $20-25k a year on "stuff"

You're upper middle class...the problem is what we're allowing the top one percent to get away with, not middle class. You getting a tax break is a good thing.
People who make as much as Warren Buffet, well....ask Buffet what HE thinks, and he thinks "what he thinks" also applies to people who make a tenth what he makes.
That is still way way above your spot on the food chain.
You're in the earning class that deserves tax breaks.

I mean, seriously, is your view of liberals so distorted that you think we whine about anyone who earns a living? You're part of the group that creates DEMAND for goods and services and the fact is, what YOU spend is significant.

Giving tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions, in tax breaks, to someone who is worth hundreds of millions or a few billion, isn't going to inspire them to suddenly spend another 25% of their income on goods and services.
And even if they did, that doesn't constitute the bulk of consumer demand, purchasing by people in YOUR spot on the totem pole does, and I daresay pretty much everyone below your spot as well.

Sorry, hate to burst your bubble, but for the folks getting the best tax breaks, you ARE still the riff raff, even if you're not.

By the way, if you're going to spend that kinda bread on a workstation, consider getting something from BOXX...much more bang for the buck!
For eight grand, wouldn't you rather have 18 or 36 cores?

Upper middle-class is generally considered to be a net worth of between 1/2M to 2M, I have that in the market and cash alone, not counting any of my "material" assets (houses and rolling stock) JS.

In any event, yes, the D's who want to redistribute my money to poor people who don't deserve it, do indeed treat me like shit. However that doesn't have jack to do with the spending habits that these tax cuts can, and will, cause across the board.


(OT nerd speak):

Also, while I do appreciate the attempted advice, my rig is not a workstation; it's a custom high-end gaming rig with a heavy emphasis on audiophile for my recording studio. I've completely modified the two cases, the top one was taken down to it's frame and rebuilt, made all the connection cables, even has a custom built audio LED system - aka the motherboard tray I built flashes with the bass channel (60Hz adjustable), and the right and left water tubes to the GPU and CPU flash with right and left channels. I'm also designing a circuit board to run an audio LED that lights up fiber optic "strings" on my three guitars, violin, and harp for when I get my new studio finished.

I've been building my own rigs since the 80s and there is no way I'd ever buy a pre-made system. The absolute best rig [fully upgraded] BOXX offers is still pale compared to this thing. I run 4.2Ghz stock (but I can rock a stable 5.1 OC,) my GPUs smoke their best offering in speed and memory (see UserBenchmark: AMD R9 290X vs Nvidia Quadro K1200 and even the next model up of their AMD WX offering Radeon R9 290X vs PRO WX 5100 -- and I'm actually cross-firing two OC'ed R9-290x's in my rig --

-- my RAM is already near the top end (I just chose reliability/stability and aesthetics [see the low-profile DIMMs in the pic above] over speed, to show off my CPU waterblock; I didn't want to water cool my DIMMs), and my SuperNova PSU could likely power seven or eight of their rigs they're so woefully under-powered (which means no over clocking and no extra gadgets... Hell my GPUs gobble up 295W each /stock/, my CPU munches another 125W stock, and that's not even thinking about the MB, RAM, drives, water pumps for cooling, and my custom lighting... Their 300W PSU could barely even handle the ITX music server I've got in my bottom chassis heh)

The only thing the super upgraded BOXX has on me is the RAM as I mentioned above, (theirs are DDR4-2400 vs mine are DDR3-1600 - but that doesn't necessarily give as much of performance increase as you'd think - I so wish... meh good vid on that if your interested -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utWnjA4NzSA) and a bigger SSD offering (for an additional $1,200-3 grand+, which is far more than I paid for my 720GB's worth of SSDs and all of my 6TB WD Black's combined. Plus, as a note, SSD's are really only useful for OS and games/video processing; my 720G is more than enough for me and in fact I still have some 400GB free.

... Sorry I'm a full-on geek when it comes to computers

 

[Wyatt earp]

Link idiot? God you are fucking stupid


Wages are going up in China fool that's why the jobs are starting to move here .

BearBreath.......calm down

The average factory hourly wage in the U.S, is $23.32........while in China it's $1.36 (and in Germany, $25,80).........LOL

Average Cost Of A Factory Worker In The U.S., China And Germany [INFOGRAPHIC] | HuffPost

So if it's as cheap as tampon squad huff post suggest why are Chinese company's moving here?

Chinese companies are moving here for the same reason US companies are moving to other countries. Because they want to open new markets or grow existing markets and being present in those markets is beneficial to business. Don’t believe the only reason companies leave the US is for taxes. Maybe in some cases but not for many.

Link idiot? God you are fucking stupid


Wages are going up in China fool that's why the jobs are starting to move here .

BearBreath.......calm down

The average factory hourly wage in the U.S, is $23.32........while in China it's $1.36 (and in Germany, $25,80).........LOL

Average Cost Of A Factory Worker In The U.S., China And Germany [INFOGRAPHIC] | HuffPost

So if it's as cheap as tampon squad huff post suggest why are Chinese company's moving here?

Chinese companies are moving here for the same reason US companies are moving to other countries. Because they want to open new markets or grow existing markets and being present in those markets is beneficial to business. Don’t believe the only reason companies leave the US is for taxes. Maybe in some cases but not for many.

And they are also moving here because wages and energy cost are going up in China like my link says .

 

[Skull Pilot]

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

No, no...you're NOT the Marie Antoinette...you're one of the dumb peasants that sided with the royalty.

YEah the guy who wants everyone to keep as much of their own money as possible sides with "royalty"

You're the one who wants to take more money from the people not me

 

[Skull Pilot]

You mean the guy who wants everyone to keep more of their own money?

Unlike you who wants to take as much as possible

I don’t want to take as much as possible. You should not have to make shit up to win an argument. Stick to the facts

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

And you think I should listen to your sage advice on the economy when you obviously don't know shit

How is it, "their money" if it is being added to the "Peoples' debt"?

It is their money. They earned it.

If you got a job you might understand that.

And the only thing adding to the debt is governemnt spending

End our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror; they are not in our Constitution. Providing for the general welfare is in our Constitution.

Here we go again Dory.
Why don't you look up one of the dozen or so posts where I have addressed your war on drugs obsession

 

[danielpalos]

I don’t want to take as much as possible. You should not have to make shit up to win an argument. Stick to the facts

So me saying let people keep as much of their money as possible is somehow in your tiny brain the same as Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake?

And you think I should listen to your sage advice on the economy when you obviously don't know shit

How is it, "their money" if it is being added to the "Peoples' debt"?

It is their money. They earned it.

If you got a job you might understand that.

And the only thing adding to the debt is governemnt spending

End our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror; they are not in our Constitution. Providing for the general welfare is in our Constitution.

Here we go again Dory.
Why don't you look up one of the dozen or so posts where I have addressed your war on drugs obsession

There is no drug war clause, there is a welfare clause.