Torture In Israel

[SAYIT]

I didn't say we are perfect. I said I believe America and Americans are the best the world has to offer and if you need to focus on the negs, you, like Sherri, are free to pack your bags and move some place that makes you feel less miserable.

You think I should get the fuck out of the country, because I exercise my Constitutional right to address my greivances to government, then have the nerve to say that's the best we have to offer? I thought American's believe in "freedom of expression", but when I express my feelings, you freak out!

That's pretty un-American, if you ask me.

Not freakin', Princess, just pointing out the irrefutable fact that, like Sherri, living in the "Great Satan" is taking a terrible toll on your pathetic soul (not that you had much to start with) and that living somewhere you find to be less evil than America would be good for your health.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I didn't say we are perfect. I said I believe America and Americans are the best the world has to offer and if you need to focus on the negs, you, like Sherri, are free to pack your bags and move some place that makes you feel less miserable.

You think I should get the fuck out of the country, because I exercise my Constitutional right to address my greivances to government, then have the nerve to say that's the best we have to offer? I thought American's believe in "freedom of expression", but when I express my feelings, you freak out!

That's pretty un-American, if you ask me.

Not freakin', Princess, just pointing out the irrefutable fact that, like Sherri, living in the "Great Satan" is taking a terrible toll on your pathetic soul (not that you had much to start with) and that living somewhere you find to be less evil than America would be good for your health.

It is the patriotic thing to do to seek improvements for your country.

 

[SAYIT]

You think I should get the fuck out of the country, because I exercise my Constitutional right to address my greivances to government, then have the nerve to say that's the best we have to offer? I thought American's believe in "freedom of expression", but when I express my feelings, you freak out!

That's pretty un-American, if you ask me.

Not freakin', Princess, just pointing out the irrefutable fact that, like Sherri, living in the "Great Satan" is taking a terrible toll on your pathetic soul (not that you had much to start with) and that living somewhere you find to be less evil than America would be good for your health.

It is the patriotic thing to do to seek improvements for your country.

If you read Sherri's shopping list of America's "crimes and evils" and LoinCloth's defense of her and it, you'd know neither of them are about improving America.
Or perhaps you did read it and agree with their assessment.
In any event they are all about serving their own personal hate for America and Americans.

 

[Billo_Really]

Not freakin', Princess, just pointing out the irrefutable fact that, like Sherri, living in the "Great Satan" is taking a terrible toll on your pathetic soul (not that you had much to start with) and that living somewhere you find to be less evil than America would be good for your health.

How can you, telling me what I think, possibly be an "irrefutable fact"? Are you really this crazy? Because if you believe that, you are completely detached from reality.

 

[Billo_Really]

If you read Sherri's shopping list of America's "crimes and evils" and LoinCloth's defense of her and it, you'd know neither of them are about improving America.
Or perhaps you did read it and agree with their assessment.
In any event they are all about serving their own personal hate for America and Americans.

When your parents scolded you for doing something wrong, weren't you a better person afterwards?

 

[SAYIT]

If you read Sherri's shopping list of America's "crimes and evils" and LoinCloth's defense of her and it, you'd know neither of them are about improving America.
Or perhaps you did read it and agree with their assessment.
In any event they are all about serving their own personal hate for America and Americans.

When your parents scolded you for doing something wrong, weren't you a better person afterwards?

You can wiggle and squirm all you like, Princess, but both you and comrade Sherri are out of the closet on this and there's no gettin' those worms back into the can.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If you read Sherri's shopping list of America's "crimes and evils" and LoinCloth's defense of her and it, you'd know neither of them are about improving America.
Or perhaps you did read it and agree with their assessment.
In any event they are all about serving their own personal hate for America and Americans.

When your parents scolded you for doing something wrong, weren't you a better person afterwards?

Hmmm, hard to tell.

 

[sealadaigh]

I don't advocate torture, never said or implied I approve torture. Now, a head for an eye is a different matter. That I condone and approve, along with water boarding, which ain't torture.
And another thing: I want to see some visual proof that these criminals are tortured.

i am not sure what you mean by visual proof. i am not even sure what, in today's societies, constitutes proof of anything. i regarded the initial post as an unsubstantiated allegation and never addressed the particulars. i did address your and other's reaction to it as though it were a fact because it was being treated as such. there is a difference.

you defended, or soft soaped the allegation, (and again, you were treating it as a fact), by comparing it to obscure muslim treatments of people. that too, by the way, is an allegation and was rather broadly put.

as for torture, flip a coin. have you ever been water boarded. i have. it is torture. physically abusing prisoners to extract information is torture, not to mention it rarely works. in fact, it works just the opposite. it provides fodder and succor for the enemy. it allows people that i know you dislike, to jump on the "righteous moral indignation" bandwagon.

you just did it in another post somewhere involving syrian torture, which i condemn, but you used it to excuse gitmo and attack some alleged or imagined regime in washington. first of all, i am not sure gitmo really needs that much of a defense. i mean, to me, it is a prisoner of war camp and overall, it really doesn't need much of a defense...but when you put it in the same category as what is going on in syria...well, i am beginning to have some second thoughts. i do know this though...gitmo is a legal conundrum perhaps unique to our times.

oh...and these children that you have alleged to be criminals. they're kids, and a civilised society and a civilised government does not treat children this way...and perhaps illustrative of this is the way jewish children are treated when they should be taken into custody for some reason. right now you have soldiers refusing to follow legal orders regarding the "price tag" settlers for attacking the palestinian homes. do you actually think jewish children who are arrested are going to be treated in the same way palestinian children are treated by soldiers and authorities like that.

that, my friend, is a definition of apartheid...one of the many definitions.

I would like to think you confuse me with someone else. While I don't compare with any of your descriptions, I side with all of my compatriots and friends,some I have known for many years. When one of them submits an outrageous post, it is not my duty to berate them or show my displeasure. They have a right to express their thoughts and are responsible for their actions.
I have always been guilty of using humorous ,sometimes bittersarcasm but I have found on these boards that Islamists and their supporters lack a sense of humor as well as a sense of reason. Guess it's in the genes.

i don't confuse you with anyone else. i admit, i did single you out, but for no personal reason. i merely noticed a few of your posts, and you are certainly not the worst.

all i am saying really is that there seems to be a trend among the "pro-colonialist/anti indigenous people" posters on this board to divert, excuse or otherwise condone acts of wrongdoing by israelis or the israeli government by pointing out some other group doing something worse. i don't think you are the kind of person who wants to be measured that way, but that is the perception of yourself that you want to convey.

also, there seems to be a trend towards regarding all arab or all muslim peoples as the same. the palestinians are no more to blame for what goes on in iran than european jews are responsible for what goes on in israel. there may be some links, sure, but i think an honest person would make an attempt to discern what is or isn't a legitimate connection.

as for siding with compatriots, i personally am not willing to sacrifice integrity in order to take a popular position. anyone who would expect me to do that is not my friend or compatriot.

and humour...some things are just inappropriate for humour. there are some very funny holocaust jokes, dead baby joke, stupid polack jokes, drunk irish jokes, cowardly french jokes etc. now, i have never really heard a jewish person tell a holocaust joke or the parent of a child who died tell a dead baby joke and etc. so i am sure you can figure humour out...but you go right ahead.

i am pretty sure lynndie england thought she was a funny woman in early 2004. i am also pretty sure she had time to think about her ill conceived humour beginning in 2005 and thereafter.

 

[MHunterB]

If you read Sherri's shopping list of America's "crimes and evils" and LoinCloth's defense of her and it, you'd know neither of them are about improving America.
Or perhaps you did read it and agree with their assessment.
In any event they are all about serving their own personal hate for America and Americans.

When your parents scolded you for doing something wrong, weren't you a better person afterwards?

So you're casting Sherri and/or yourself as 'parents' or some form of 'role models' for someone else.

IOW, you seem to see yourselves as people whose opinions others should respect, having some kind of 'moral authority' as parents do ?

 

[Billo_Really]

So you're casting Sherri and/or yourself as 'parents' or some form of 'role models' for someone else.

No, not at all. I'm definately no role model. I've got just as many problems as anyone else. But that wasn't my point. My point was, that if you were doing something wrong and someone let you know it, wouldn't you be better off after having that information? Let's say you just came to this country and didn't know what red lights were all about. You're driving with someone and go right through one or two without stopping, then your passenger tells you, "Ya know, you're supposed to stop at those!" As a driver, are you better (or worse) after being told that?

Citizens have a duty to correct their government, if it is doing things that are harmful to the country.

IOW, you seem to see yourselves as people whose opinions others should respect, having some kind of 'moral authority' as parents do ?

I don't see myself through the eyes of others. I could care less about what others think of me. I don't tell people what to think and I certainly don't tell anyone what to do. Conversely, I don't allow anyone to tell me what to think or what to do (within reason).

Why are you trying to make this issue about me?

 

[Hossfly]

i am not sure what you mean by visual proof. i am not even sure what, in today's societies, constitutes proof of anything. i regarded the initial post as an unsubstantiated allegation and never addressed the particulars. i did address your and other's reaction to it as though it were a fact because it was being treated as such. there is a difference.

you defended, or soft soaped the allegation, (and again, you were treating it as a fact), by comparing it to obscure muslim treatments of people. that too, by the way, is an allegation and was rather broadly put.

as for torture, flip a coin. have you ever been water boarded. i have. it is torture. physically abusing prisoners to extract information is torture, not to mention it rarely works. in fact, it works just the opposite. it provides fodder and succor for the enemy. it allows people that i know you dislike, to jump on the "righteous moral indignation" bandwagon.

you just did it in another post somewhere involving syrian torture, which i condemn, but you used it to excuse gitmo and attack some alleged or imagined regime in washington. first of all, i am not sure gitmo really needs that much of a defense. i mean, to me, it is a prisoner of war camp and overall, it really doesn't need much of a defense...but when you put it in the same category as what is going on in syria...well, i am beginning to have some second thoughts. i do know this though...gitmo is a legal conundrum perhaps unique to our times.

oh...and these children that you have alleged to be criminals. they're kids, and a civilised society and a civilised government does not treat children this way...and perhaps illustrative of this is the way jewish children are treated when they should be taken into custody for some reason. right now you have soldiers refusing to follow legal orders regarding the "price tag" settlers for attacking the palestinian homes. do you actually think jewish children who are arrested are going to be treated in the same way palestinian children are treated by soldiers and authorities like that.

that, my friend, is a definition of apartheid...one of the many definitions.

I would like to think you confuse me with someone else. While I don't compare with any of your descriptions, I side with all of my compatriots and friends,some I have known for many years. When one of them submits an outrageous post, it is not my duty to berate them or show my displeasure. They have a right to express their thoughts and are responsible for their actions.
I have always been guilty of using humorous ,sometimes bittersarcasm but I have found on these boards that Islamists and their supporters lack a sense of humor as well as a sense of reason. Guess it's in the genes.

i don't confuse you with anyone else. i admit, i did single you out, but for no personal reason. i merely noticed a few of your posts, and you are certainly not the worst.

all i am saying really is that there seems to be a trend among the "pro-colonialist/anti indigenous people" posters on this board to divert, excuse or otherwise condone acts of wrongdoing by israelis or the israeli government by pointing out some other group doing something worse. i don't think you are the kind of person who wants to be measured that way, but that is the perception of yourself that you want to convey.

also, there seems to be a trend towards regarding all arab or all muslim peoples as the same. the palestinians are no more to blame for what goes on in iran than european jews are responsible for what goes on in israel. there may be some links, sure, but i think an honest person would make an attempt to discern what is or isn't a legitimate connection.

as for siding with compatriots, i personally am not willing to sacrifice integrity in order to take a popular position. anyone who would expect me to do that is not my friend or compatriot.

and humour...some things are just inappropriate for humour. there are some very funny holocaust jokes, dead baby joke, stupid polack jokes, drunk irish jokes, cowardly french jokes etc. now, i have never really heard a jewish person tell a holocaust joke or the parent of a child who died tell a dead baby joke and etc. so i am sure you can figure humour out...but you go right ahead.

i am pretty sure lynndie england thought she was a funny woman in early 2004. i am also pretty sure she had time to think about her ill conceived humour beginning in 2005 and thereafter.

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.

 

[MHunterB]

Oh, I wasn't trying to make the issue about you: I was working from the usual connotations associated with 'parents'.

If you'd used a different word, perhaps I wouldn't have gotten the 'moral authority' vibe off of it. Which is also why I had it as a question - because I hadn't concluded anything and was trying to check with you to understand exactly what you intended to convey.

So thanks for clearing that up for me : )

Since you're talking about a 'horizontal' perspective (don't go getting all hot 'n' bothered, I'm referring to 'authority' here!) - it really has no weight. Everyone is free to express whatever opinions they have about what's done right or wrong in this country.

Which of course is not conveyed in your 'illustration', as that still assumes the person giving 'directions' is more knowlegeable than the driver (by reason of having been here longer, hence more authority).

Essentially, you've repeated your initial error - just using another example.

My 'quibble' is about the apparent assumption that the poster making the statements about things being wrong is in any way a better judge of such matters than the driver.

It has nothing to do with you, LoinBoy: it's not 'personal' in the least bit.

 

[Hossfly]

I would like to think you confuse me with someone else. While I don't compare with any of your descriptions, I side with all of my compatriots and friends,some I have known for many years. When one of them submits an outrageous post, it is not my duty to berate them or show my displeasure. They have a right to express their thoughts and are responsible for their actions.
I have always been guilty of using humorous ,sometimes bittersarcasm but I have found on these boards that Islamists and their supporters lack a sense of humor as well as a sense of reason. Guess it's in the genes.

i don't confuse you with anyone else. i admit, i did single you out, but for no personal reason. i merely noticed a few of your posts, and you are certainly not the worst.

all i am saying really is that there seems to be a trend among the "pro-colonialist/anti indigenous people" posters on this board to divert, excuse or otherwise condone acts of wrongdoing by israelis or the israeli government by pointing out some other group doing something worse. i don't think you are the kind of person who wants to be measured that way, but that is the perception of yourself that you want to convey.

also, there seems to be a trend towards regarding all arab or all muslim peoples as the same. the palestinians are no more to blame for what goes on in iran than european jews are responsible for what goes on in israel. there may be some links, sure, but i think an honest person would make an attempt to discern what is or isn't a legitimate connection.

as for siding with compatriots, i personally am not willing to sacrifice integrity in order to take a popular position. anyone who would expect me to do that is not my friend or compatriot.

and humour...some things are just inappropriate for humour. there are some very funny holocaust jokes, dead baby joke, stupid polack jokes, drunk irish jokes, cowardly french jokes etc. now, i have never really heard a jewish person tell a holocaust joke or the parent of a child who died tell a dead baby joke and etc. so i am sure you can figure humour out...but you go right ahead.

i am pretty sure lynndie england thought she was a funny woman in early 2004. i am also pretty sure she had time to think about her ill conceived humour beginning in 2005 and thereafter.

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.

Oh, by the way: Sealadaigh abu. OK?

 

[sealadaigh]

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.[/QUOTE]

LOL...OK, you mandibular possessing, anautogenous, parasitic worm carrying, blood sucking tabinid.

 

[Hossfly]

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.

LOL...OK, you mandibular possessing, anautogenous, parasitic worm carrying, blood sucking tabinid.[/QUOTE]
You always did have a sense of humor, Sealio. That is, until you go on one of your berserker binges.

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh, I wasn't trying to make the issue about you: I was working from the usual connotations associated with 'parents'.

If you'd used a different word, perhaps I wouldn't have gotten the 'moral authority' vibe off of it. Which is also why I had it as a question - because I hadn't concluded anything and was trying to check with you to understand exactly what you intended to convey.

So thanks for clearing that up for me : )

Since you're talking about a 'horizontal' perspective (don't go getting all hot 'n' bothered, I'm referring to 'authority' here!) - it really has no weight. Everyone is free to express whatever opinions they have about what's done right or wrong in this country.

Which of course is not conveyed in your 'illustration', as that still assumes the person giving 'directions' is more knowlegeable than the driver (by reason of having been here longer, hence more authority).

Essentially, you've repeated your initial error - just using another example.

My 'quibble' is about the apparent assumption that the poster making the statements about things being wrong is in any way a better judge of such matters than the driver.

It has nothing to do with you, LoinBoy: it's not 'personal' in the least bit.

The issue isn't about the judgement of the person giving the information, the issue is about how the person receiving the information processes it.

Do they automatically dismiss the information because :

• they don't care for the source
• it is the opposite of their ideology
• it's not familiar to them
• they have too much invested in their position to change it
• their mind is made up and they don't really care about new information

Or do they blindly accept it because:

• it comes from "their" side
• they're too uncomfortable to go against the grain
• they always follow the leader
• they don't think for themselves
• they want to be part of a group

Or it could be somewhere in between.

I find it interesting, people that hold onto positions based on false information, get more intrenched in that position, after given information that proves it false.

If I'm given information that proves my position false, I change my position and move on.

 

[MHunterB]

Both of your illustrations involved the 'listener' doing something wrong, LoinBoy.

By whose definition? People don't usually do things which they see as wrong.


Now, you & I were talking about differing interpretations of 'what the US is supposed to be'. It isn't a simple 'yes/no' situation.

All of those factors you mentioned, or some variety of same, might be present. But of course yours were not exhaustive lists - which is fine as you didn't claim they were.

I didn't see my usual reasons for either rejecting or considering another's 'input', though. And pretty much all your reasons on both lists were very foreign to my way of deciding on such things.

 

[Billo_Really]

Both of your illustrations involved the 'listener' doing something wrong, LoinBoy.

By whose definition? People don't usually do things which they see as wrong.


Now, you & I were talking about differing interpretations of 'what the US is supposed to be'. It isn't a simple 'yes/no' situation.

All of those factors you mentioned, or some variety of same, might be present. But of course yours were not exhaustive lists - which is fine as you didn't claim they were.

I didn't see my usual reasons for either rejecting or considering another's 'input', though. And pretty much all your reasons on both lists were very foreign to my way of deciding on such things.

They weren't meant to be all inclusive, but I think you got the jist of my point.

 

[sealadaigh]

i don't confuse you with anyone else. i admit, i did single you out, but for no personal reason. i merely noticed a few of your posts, and you are certainly not the worst.

all i am saying really is that there seems to be a trend among the "pro-colonialist/anti indigenous people" posters on this board to divert, excuse or otherwise condone acts of wrongdoing by israelis or the israeli government by pointing out some other group doing something worse. i don't think you are the kind of person who wants to be measured that way, but that is the perception of yourself that you want to convey.

also, there seems to be a trend towards regarding all arab or all muslim peoples as the same. the palestinians are no more to blame for what goes on in iran than european jews are responsible for what goes on in israel. there may be some links, sure, but i think an honest person would make an attempt to discern what is or isn't a legitimate connection.

as for siding with compatriots, i personally am not willing to sacrifice integrity in order to take a popular position. anyone who would expect me to do that is not my friend or compatriot.

and humour...some things are just inappropriate for humour. there are some very funny holocaust jokes, dead baby joke, stupid polack jokes, drunk irish jokes, cowardly french jokes etc. now, i have never really heard a jewish person tell a holocaust joke or the parent of a child who died tell a dead baby joke and etc. so i am sure you can figure humour out...but you go right ahead.

i am pretty sure lynndie england thought she was a funny woman in early 2004. i am also pretty sure she had time to think about her ill conceived humour beginning in 2005 and thereafter.

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.

Oh, by the way: Sealadaigh abu. OK?

an sealadaigh siad bas, a chara. nua oglaigh abu. reabhloid abu. beidh ar la linn.

 

[Roudy]

Sure thing, Mr. Revolutionary IRA gangster.

LOL...OK, you mandibular possessing, anautogenous, parasitic worm carrying, blood sucking tabinid.[/QUOTE]
Squeal for us! Fookin Jaysus!