Tolerance and Bigotry: What happens when the shoe is on the other foot?

[Pogo]

I'm a huge fan of George Takei, and I follow him on Facebook, Takei makes no bones about the fact that he's flaming gay and has a husband/partner named Brad. Hikaru Sulu was and is still one of my favorite characters in the original Star Trek (aside from Spock, Kirk and Chekov). But sometimes he can be quite provocative and downright hostile to people who express dissenting views of homosexuality (namely Memories Pizza), and as a result, I must sometimes roll my eyes and scroll past some of his inflammatory discussion topics (most of the time he is absolutely brilliant with puns and therefore a constant source of hilarity), but one of his topics tonight in particular compelled me to write this thread, of which can be seen here.

It's funny though, there is this far reaching cry in America for religious tolerance of homosexuality, or otherwise face inevitable demise for their intransigence. I hear how the religious (mainly the Christian religion) should have to change their values and precepts in order to be more inclusive to homosexuals, yet what I see in today's far left social liberal are words of hate and bigotry towards Christians and people of faith. In other words, the same hatred, intolerance, and bigotry that those same people claim come from those of faith.

One wonders, how does it feel for them to become the very thing they're fighting against? Doesn't tolerance work both ways? It stands to reason that if you want tolerance, you must give it in same while taking care not to be what you condemn; as Friedrich Nietzsche put it, "fight not with monsters, lest you become a monster, for if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

If you fight so much and so hard, and with too much zealousness against a perceived evil (in this case, intolerance and bigotry), you risk becoming the same evil you were fighting against in the first place (intolerant and bigoted). This is what the LGBT activists and hordes of pro gay rights liberals have done and are doing. Preaching against intolerance and bigotry whilst being intolerant and bigoted.

Am I saying there aren't bigots? Not at all, there are. There are bigots all over the place! Am I saying that all gay people are this way? Heck no. In fact, I've seen a few examples of gay people standing up for people of faith. Am I am saying that all pro gay rights liberals are this way? Well, I'd be lying if I said no.

But this is ludicrous. The only target of this outrage in America thus far is Christianity. Not one Muslim has been sued or called out by the LGBT community for discriminating or contending that homosexuality is a sin against Allah. Nope. Just Christianity. As far as I can tell, and from what I've read, Muslims treat homosexuals a hundred times, no, a million times more harshly than any Christian today would. Christians think homosexuality is a sin that can be forgiven by God. Muslims think homosexuality is unforgivable, and is a sin punishable by death. But why just Christianity?

I also note the lack of concern some self proclaimed gay rights activists hold for homosexual people in the Middle East. When other gay people around the world are subject to the same, if not worse treatment that they condemn Christians for committing against gays in America, the silence is quite damning. To fight for gay rights in my mind, is to fight for the rights of gay individuals everywhere on Earth, not just here in America. Those who do only focus on gays here in America should realize their advocacy rings hollow. The focus is myopic.

Christianity is often condemned for its behavior during The Crusades, for forcing the conversion of unwitting Muslims and rightly so, though we have grown out of exercising such forms of barbarity; but now, I see a crusade of a different sort. And it's being waged by the extreme fringe of the LGBT crowd this time around. "Make your religion accept us, or be damned!" Their vanguard, consisting of the far left and left wage the war of identity against the opposition, hurling words like "intolerant" and "bigoted" like fire and pitch across the sociopolitical battlefield, landing squarely where it doesn't belong.

Tolerance stops at intolerance. Now you know.

And the Christians didn't just force Jews, Muslims, and others to convert, they expelled them or killed them if they didn't.

Centuries ago.

Here too, not that long ago. A significant portion of slaves were Muslim, which faith was for the most part suppressed.

 

[Seawytch]

Got point, however 85% of the religious hate crimes were not directed at Christians.

And from what I read, the FBI report didn't specify what religious demographic was the primary target of these hate crimes. Nice dodge, but you forgot about the wall.

And predictably, a majority of the religious hate crimes are against Jews:

Religious bias
Of the 1,223 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

• 60.3 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.
• 13.7 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.
• 6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.
• 4.3 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).
• 3.8 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.
• 0.6 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
• 11.2 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion). (Based on Table 1.)

FBI Victims

Considering jews make up around 2% of the population, that is a lot of hate crimes

And ditto for Muslims at <1%.

And gays at between 2-4%.

FBI Table 1

Anti-Gay (Male) 750
Anti-Lesbian 160
Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group) 277

Anti-Jewish 625
Anti-Islamic (Muslim) 135

 

[Pogo]

IOW you can't name a single issue.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So here's a poser for you religious rights advocates that believe discrimination is a right if it's done for a professed religious belief:

The Presbyterian Church now recognizes same sex marriage as legitimate. The church has embraced same sex marriage as a part of its religious teachings/beliefs.

So...let's say a same sex Presbyterian couple goes to a baker to buy a wedding cake. The baker, a Christian of a different variety, claims HIS religion rejects same sex marriage and sees it as sinful and therefore he believes he can refuse a same sex couple service on religious grounds.

The same sex couple responds, we are Presbyterians and our religion approves of same sex marriage. It is thus our religious belief that we have the right to marry, and the right to be treated equally...

...therefore you are discriminating against us based on our religion, which is a violation of our constitutional rights.

Who wins?

That's easy. The error in thinking, involves you assuming the "Presbyterian Church" has any authority in the matter.

A Christian only has one ultimate authority in his life. Just one. G-d through his Word, the Bible. I don't care what ANYONE says about ANYTHING.... if it contradicts the Bible. The Bible is the one single ultimate Authority.

It's not the Pope. It's not the Southern Baptist Convention. It's not Joel Osteen, or Billy Gram, or Jerry Fawell. It's not the Presbyterian Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Methodist Church, or the Anglican church.

It is G-d through the Bible... ALONE. No other authority.

So here is the answer to your question. The Bible makes it absolutely, 100% clear, that Homosexuality is a sin. Period. No discussion.

Therefore, if a "christian" has claimed that SSM is ok in their church..... then what they have done is identified themselves as opposing the Word of G-d, and thus they are not Christians.

If any person claims to be Christian, and says that homosexuality is not a sin, then from that point on, I treat that person like they are a pagan, because they are not a Christian.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.

Oh I don't think so. The legacy of laws in the social construct precedes those of religion. More accurate to say the Babble, and the various other books, were written to mirror what the Law had already figured out, that it might have a supernatural power.

As your next sentence demonstrates:

Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

Well said.

 

[aris2chat]

From the point of prejudging groups, perhaps if they walked it realtor dressed in leather and chains; sequins, 9" high hair style and rainbow make-up; in arab garb with three women in full burka's and a number of goats; gang colors or clown outfits, there might be a reason to question if certain areas are the right place for them and what their motivation are for the property.
It should not be about refusing to do business but finding the right fit for the customer and the community.
There might be some prejudging but it should be about what the customer wants and needs as well.
We all have the instinct to prejudge. We tend to not want to do business with loud or obnoxious people. We don't want a disruptive element in our communities or around our children. We tend to prefer those who are more like ourselves. It is natural that we prefer a certain comfort range.
It should not be totally about looks, but what are the people really like. If you have a general store and someone walk in to buy a soda, no you should refuse business, unless perhaps they are naked or 'high'. Then perhaps they need help not your business's service. Call for 911 perhaps or other group, don't take a baseball bat to them. If someone wants to open a drug addiction out reach center in the heart of a family community, condo, building or association, then yes there should be more question. If they are looking to open an LGBT night club next to a school, it might not be the right fit. If they are looking to bring farm animals into an urban neighborhood there might be legal and health restriction.
It is not about refusing business but doing business that benefits the community as a whole.

Just being different should not be a reason to be rude or refuse to help others. If you are rude, then others are more likely to respond rudely to you.

If we prejudge, perhaps we should ask ourselves why and look to question what is really right under the circumstances. Hate should not be our motivation in life.

 

[World Savior]

Intolerance of Intolerance is not Intolerance.

 

[Andylusion]

Intolerance of Intolerance is not Intolerance.

You have the right to be wrong. It is legal to support stupidity in this country.

 

[Seawytch]

Intolerance of Intolerance is not Intolerance.

You have the right to be wrong. It is legal to support stupidity in this country.

Except he's right. There's nothing wrong with being intolerant of intolerance.

 

[Andylusion]

To wit:

Where is the litany of issues people like you are willing to be tolerant on, despite your disagreement with the right on those issues? You are so focused on bending someone to tolerate you and your ways that you don't have time to be tolerant to them. We call that subversion Carbine. Tolerance, like I have explained an inordinate amount of times before on PC's thread and this one, is not forcing someone to believe as you do, to accept what they believe and believe what you want at the same time. That's tolerance.

IOW you can't name a single issue.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

 

[NYcarbineer]

IOW you can't name a single issue.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So here's a poser for you religious rights advocates that believe discrimination is a right if it's done for a professed religious belief:

The Presbyterian Church now recognizes same sex marriage as legitimate. The church has embraced same sex marriage as a part of its religious teachings/beliefs.

So...let's say a same sex Presbyterian couple goes to a baker to buy a wedding cake. The baker, a Christian of a different variety, claims HIS religion rejects same sex marriage and sees it as sinful and therefore he believes he can refuse a same sex couple service on religious grounds.

The same sex couple responds, we are Presbyterians and our religion approves of same sex marriage. It is thus our religious belief that we have the right to marry, and the right to be treated equally...

...therefore you are discriminating against us based on our religion, which is a violation of our constitutional rights.

Who wins?

That's easy. The error in thinking, involves you assuming the "Presbyterian Church" has any authority in the matter.

A Christian only has one ultimate authority in his life. Just one. G-d through his Word, the Bible. I don't care what ANYONE says about ANYTHING.... if it contradicts the Bible. The Bible is the one single ultimate Authority.

It's not the Pope. It's not the Southern Baptist Convention. It's not Joel Osteen, or Billy Gram, or Jerry Fawell. It's not the Presbyterian Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Methodist Church, or the Anglican church.

It is G-d through the Bible... ALONE. No other authority.

So here is the answer to your question. The Bible makes it absolutely, 100% clear, that Homosexuality is a sin. Period. No discussion.

Therefore, if a "christian" has claimed that SSM is ok in their church..... then what they have done is identified themselves as opposing the Word of G-d, and thus they are not Christians.

If any person claims to be Christian, and says that homosexuality is not a sin, then from that point on, I treat that person like they are a pagan, because they are not a Christian.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

IOW you can't name a single issue.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

 

[Andylusion]

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So here's a poser for you religious rights advocates that believe discrimination is a right if it's done for a professed religious belief:

The Presbyterian Church now recognizes same sex marriage as legitimate. The church has embraced same sex marriage as a part of its religious teachings/beliefs.

So...let's say a same sex Presbyterian couple goes to a baker to buy a wedding cake. The baker, a Christian of a different variety, claims HIS religion rejects same sex marriage and sees it as sinful and therefore he believes he can refuse a same sex couple service on religious grounds.

The same sex couple responds, we are Presbyterians and our religion approves of same sex marriage. It is thus our religious belief that we have the right to marry, and the right to be treated equally...

...therefore you are discriminating against us based on our religion, which is a violation of our constitutional rights.

Who wins?

That's easy. The error in thinking, involves you assuming the "Presbyterian Church" has any authority in the matter.

A Christian only has one ultimate authority in his life. Just one. G-d through his Word, the Bible. I don't care what ANYONE says about ANYTHING.... if it contradicts the Bible. The Bible is the one single ultimate Authority.

It's not the Pope. It's not the Southern Baptist Convention. It's not Joel Osteen, or Billy Gram, or Jerry Fawell. It's not the Presbyterian Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Methodist Church, or the Anglican church.

It is G-d through the Bible... ALONE. No other authority.

So here is the answer to your question. The Bible makes it absolutely, 100% clear, that Homosexuality is a sin. Period. No discussion.

Therefore, if a "christian" has claimed that SSM is ok in their church..... then what they have done is identified themselves as opposing the Word of G-d, and thus they are not Christians.

If any person claims to be Christian, and says that homosexuality is not a sin, then from that point on, I treat that person like they are a pagan, because they are not a Christian.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to follow my beliefs.

 

[TemplarKormac]

If we prejudge, perhaps we should ask ourselves why and look to question what is really right under the circumstances. Hate should not be our motivation in life.

And if only it worked both ways, I'd agree wholeheartedly with you.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So here's a poser for you religious rights advocates that believe discrimination is a right if it's done for a professed religious belief:

The Presbyterian Church now recognizes same sex marriage as legitimate. The church has embraced same sex marriage as a part of its religious teachings/beliefs.

So...let's say a same sex Presbyterian couple goes to a baker to buy a wedding cake. The baker, a Christian of a different variety, claims HIS religion rejects same sex marriage and sees it as sinful and therefore he believes he can refuse a same sex couple service on religious grounds.

The same sex couple responds, we are Presbyterians and our religion approves of same sex marriage. It is thus our religious belief that we have the right to marry, and the right to be treated equally...

...therefore you are discriminating against us based on our religion, which is a violation of our constitutional rights.

Who wins?

That's easy. The error in thinking, involves you assuming the "Presbyterian Church" has any authority in the matter.

A Christian only has one ultimate authority in his life. Just one. G-d through his Word, the Bible. I don't care what ANYONE says about ANYTHING.... if it contradicts the Bible. The Bible is the one single ultimate Authority.

It's not the Pope. It's not the Southern Baptist Convention. It's not Joel Osteen, or Billy Gram, or Jerry Fawell. It's not the Presbyterian Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Methodist Church, or the Anglican church.

It is G-d through the Bible... ALONE. No other authority.

So here is the answer to your question. The Bible makes it absolutely, 100% clear, that Homosexuality is a sin. Period. No discussion.

Therefore, if a "christian" has claimed that SSM is ok in their church..... then what they have done is identified themselves as opposing the Word of G-d, and thus they are not Christians.

If any person claims to be Christian, and says that homosexuality is not a sin, then from that point on, I treat that person like they are a pagan, because they are not a Christian.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to follow my beliefs.

You'll find out otherwise if you violate anti-discrimination laws.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Just being different should not be a reason to be rude or refuse to help others. If you are rude, then others are more likely to respond rudely to you.

I'm glad someone figured that out.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It should not be about refusing to do business but finding the right fit for the customer and the community.

May I remind you that such a responsibility lies with the customer to find what is adequate for his or her needs. However, such a need should not completely trump the religious conscience of the proprietor if such a service requires the proprietor to take part in something his religious teachings tell him is reprehensible.

 

[Andylusion]

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

That's easy. The error in thinking, involves you assuming the "Presbyterian Church" has any authority in the matter.

A Christian only has one ultimate authority in his life. Just one. G-d through his Word, the Bible. I don't care what ANYONE says about ANYTHING.... if it contradicts the Bible. The Bible is the one single ultimate Authority.

It's not the Pope. It's not the Southern Baptist Convention. It's not Joel Osteen, or Billy Gram, or Jerry Fawell. It's not the Presbyterian Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Methodist Church, or the Anglican church.

It is G-d through the Bible... ALONE. No other authority.

So here is the answer to your question. The Bible makes it absolutely, 100% clear, that Homosexuality is a sin. Period. No discussion.

Therefore, if a "christian" has claimed that SSM is ok in their church..... then what they have done is identified themselves as opposing the Word of G-d, and thus they are not Christians.

If any person claims to be Christian, and says that homosexuality is not a sin, then from that point on, I treat that person like they are a pagan, because they are not a Christian.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to follow my beliefs.

You'll find out otherwise if you violate anti-discrimination laws.

No, actually I won't. I am prepared to die for my beliefs. Your little fines, will not be a big issue. Besides that, if Memories Pizza can raise a million dollars, without violating anything, I will have enough support for your cheesy fines.

 

[World Savior]

IOW you can't name a single issue.

Where's the list of issues the left is willing to be tolerant on? How about Christian faith in regards to LGB issues? Are you willing to be open-minded and tolerant on that?

What? And advocate discrimination against gays? Are you mad?

So you are saying you are not open-minded and tolerant of our beliefs? Then why would you expect us to be tolerant of yours? Stalemate.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

If you don't understand the difference between disagreement and intolerance, oh well, give Sarah Palin a call. She will teach you everything you need to know.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It is not about refusing business but doing business that benefits the community as a whole.

You can't do business with a business that has been shut down because a thin skinned customer sued them under the law because he or she had his or her feelings hurt by the religious consciences of the proprietor. Tell me, you speak of business and community... yet this kind of behavior, (i.e. suing a religious cake maker for not catering a gay wedding, and subsequently having them eviscerated from the marketplace) only harms the community, does it not? The glue that should bind business and community should be tolerance, on both sides of the spectrum, but neither side is willing to show it.

Nobody wants to meet in the middle, simply because they are too busy prejudging each other.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

All the religions you cite draw their beliefs, teachings, tenets, and dogma from the Bible.

Secondly, there are no rules from 'God' dictating how literally one must follow the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Thirdly, the Bible offers no instruction to Christian business owners on who they must not serve.

Fourthly, religious rights in the Constitution are not limited to a particular Christianity of 'God's' definition. 'God' has never actually spoken to Man, btw. All of what is called God's word is hearsay.

...the correct answer is, if the 1st amendment is adhered to, a business denying a Presbyterian couple service because they are a same sex couple is religious discrimination.

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

I'm saying that to be tolerant of intolerance is intolerance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to follow my beliefs.

You'll find out otherwise if you violate anti-discrimination laws.

No, actually I won't. I am prepared to die for my beliefs. Your little fines, will not be a big issue. Besides that, if Memories Pizza can raise a million dollars, without violating anything, I will have enough support for your cheesy fines.

Oh look, an anonymous fuckstick on the internet prepared to DIE for the right to refuse to sell a pizza to a gay person.

Thank goodness we get people like you to speak up occasionally and reveal the true mentality of the modern Am erican conservative.

 

[Andylusion]

Just being different should not be a reason to be rude or refuse to help others. If you are rude, then others are more likely to respond rudely to you.

I'm glad someone figured that out.

I have co-workers where I work now. Two in fact, that are gay. And, we get along fine.

Now if they ask me to do work for their SSM or something.... the answer is no. I have no intention of being rude. But, I also have no intention of violating my faith.

Now if you consider 'rude' to be not making a cake (or in my case) photography for their SSM... Then too bad. "Well we'll sue!" ok, see you court. That's works for me. I'd rather not... but I'm not going to violate my faith.

That doesn't mean I intend to be rude. I have no intention of being rude. But when push comes to shove, I'm going to follow G-d, before men. And that, is the end of the discussion in my book.

 

[Andylusion]

Most laws are based on the morals of the bible.
Most of religions of the world hold similar beliefs and laws.

Christianity is based on the foundation of the OT, Islam in based on the foundation of the OT and part of the NT.

Without the "god" issues, most people have found the rules and guidelines found in the bible are the basis of a good life and community.

It should not be so much about following a religion but about just being a good person. Treat each other the way you would want people to treat you. Set the example. We do not live in the world alone, nor can we. We need to work with others, cooperate. To thrive we should not be dealing with war and hate, but with jobs and living standards, with building the economy for everyone.

If a customer is disruptive, hostile, dangerous or rude to the owner and other customers, a business should have the right to ask the person to leave and find someone else to do business with. It should not be about the troublesome customer but about all the other customers. It should not be a judgement of dress or looks, but behavior and the situation in general for all.

Everyone should have a right not to be prejudged, to be given a chance.

So I should not tolerate your intolerance of our beliefs? Good. We agree.

Go ahead. Oppose equal rights.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to follow my beliefs.

You'll find out otherwise if you violate anti-discrimination laws.

No, actually I won't. I am prepared to die for my beliefs. Your little fines, will not be a big issue. Besides that, if Memories Pizza can raise a million dollars, without violating anything, I will have enough support for your cheesy fines.

Oh look, an anonymous fuckstick on the internet prepared to DIE for the right to refuse to sell a pizza to a gay person.

Thank goodness we get people like you to speak up occasionally and reveal the true mentality of the modern Am erican conservative.

Well, as much as I'd like to say I speak for all conservatives, that's not true. But I would suggest that I speak for Bible believing Christians. And what you think of me... or any of us, doesn't matter.

You are just not that important. G-d is the only one who is important. You attempting to insult me, is rather funny. In order to insult someone, that someone has to care what you think. I don't.

And yes, I am willing to die for my faith. I am not going to violate my faith, and if that means not selling pizza to a SSM, then so be it. Too bad huh? Guess you'll have to determine how much you want to push it, because I'm set.