Those who insist Christians are attempting to establish a theocracy....

[occupied]

Wow I see a lot of crazy in the posts that are wailing because there is absolutely zero evidence that there is a concentrated Christian movement in the US to establish a theocracy.

Makes a person almost believe the devil's at work. Particularly if by *devil* one means ignorant drop outs who think they're SUPER INTELLECTUAL and biblically savvy!

Post incontrovertible evidence God currently exists and if so has any interest in what we do or don't do. Just kidding I know you don't work that way.

With very few exceptions "Christians" are not trying to establish a direct theocracy, more of a biblical test for all law where no one gets to be tempted because everything that is really fun has been banned or heavily regulated. Everyone knows that you cannot legislate morality but that does not stop them from trying. This attitude is what pisses people off, the very idea that adults have to live, learn and consume everything on the level of a ten year-old. Maybe you like to be treated like a child but I am a grown-up and expect a little more than fairy tales and stern parental moralizing.

 

[Mustang]

Wow I see a lot of crazy in the posts that are wailing because there is absolutely zero evidence that there is a concentrated Christian movement in the US to establish a theocracy.

Makes a person almost believe the devil's at work. Particularly if by *devil* one means ignorant drop outs who think they're SUPER INTELLECTUAL and biblically savvy!

There's plenty of evidence that there is quite a number of conservative Christian organizations led by men who desire to blend the Bible and the US Constitution together into a new kind of hybrid of governance where our gov't is accommodating to Christianity in general and the conservative Protestant dominionist movement in particular. To that end, many so-called religious people and organizations have created PACS and even sponsored the creation of satellite organizations and even media centers to promote their world view. They've bought radio stations and started TV networks. They sponsor candidates. They've put key personnel in place on school boards and state political parties which essentially run the primary process.

They use their new-found public voice to offer support to anyone who furthers their 'causes' while also ceaselessly criticizing anyone who supports the more traditional value of a separation of church and state. This is not a new movement; it's been going on for several decades now. Probably the most glaring example of the loosely affiliated movement's world view and ultimate goal is in Southern Christians' unwavering support for Israel when it comes to the Palestinian question and establishing peace and a two state solution. They're against it because they see support for Israel as a way to usher in the End Times and Armageddon.

 

[koshergrl]

Yeah you managed to mouth all that tripe without providing a single example...or even actually saying that they were attempting to substitute constitutional republicanism with theocracy.

so try again. Name me (specifically) who is trying to establish theocracy in this country. Tell me how they expect to affect it, who they think should be running the country in the name of God and by divine inspiration, and what organizations they belong to, and what violent movements they have made to further their cause.

 

[koshergrl]

Please include the legislation they have proposed and supported which will eliminate representative democracy, and replace it with leadership in the form of the clergy.

I'm all ears....

 

[emilynghiem]

so a decade is 9 years not ten?

1601-1700 is one hundred years. It is 1601 through 1700. A decade is ten years.

I know that but 1700 minus 1601 is 99.

the 100 years is from including BOTH endpoints, 1601 as a year all the way through 1700 as a year (where the next 100 year set starts with 1701).

if you subtract, you are not counting BOTH of the endpoints in the 100 year set, but only counting the "difference" between them, so you get 99.

I think?

 

[emilynghiem]

Yeah you managed to mouth all that tripe without providing a single example...or even actually saying that they were attempting to substitute constitutional republicanism with theocracy.

so try again. Name me (specifically) who is trying to establish theocracy in this country. Tell me how they expect to affect it, who they think should be running the country in the name of God and by divine inspiration, and what organizations they belong to, and what violent movements they have made to further their cause.

One group that admits they believe in Theocracy is the Jehovah's Witnesses.
but they stay AWAY from voting and elections etc. because they don't believe in
the secular govt as their govt. They follow the laws and obey civil authority, but believe in following Jehovah through their organization and teachings they believe are right with God.

 

[MarcATL]

Please provide your evidence. Quotes and links of proposed legislation that seek to establish a theocracy in the US.

Thank you.

Well...for one thing...it's the Republicans who are always in the public sphere wailing and moaning about "Ammmurrrca being a Krisschun nayshun!"

It's not, yet...they keep screaming that is.

Why would they be doing that, if not to set the table for some sort of theocratic regime?

 

[Mustang]

Yeah you managed to mouth all that tripe without providing a single example...or even actually saying that they were attempting to substitute constitutional republicanism with theocracy.

so try again. Name me (specifically) who is trying to establish theocracy in this country. Tell me how they expect to affect it, who they think should be running the country in the name of God and by divine inspiration, and what organizations they belong to, and what violent movements they have made to further their cause.

For a variety of reasons, most political movements tend to be incremental in nature. One reason is because any drastic change to the status quo is understandably seen as scary and threatening to the social order. That's why reform is usually embraced as a bulwark against social upheaval.

As an aside, interestingly and ironically enough, it's often the threat or the fear of social upheaval that leads to reform. Two or three examples immediately come to mind from the last hundred years or so. Teddy Roosevelt's reforms with the so-called trust busters, FDR's reforms following in the middle of the Great Depression, and the Civil Rights movement.

But social movements rarely remain satisfied with minor changes on the margins. Victories often lead to other demands. The Dominionist movement is like that in the sense that they see the cultural war as a religious war. Most Dominionists will NEVER openly call for a theocracy because...

A. It's seen as too radical at this point and
B. Doing so would marginalize them politically as others would disavow any association with them.

But that doesn't mean that they don't see a melding of the US Constitution and the Christian Bible as desirable and possibly attainable at some point in the future. But these people understand that if it's going to happen, it could be decades away from being a reality if it ever happens at all just as the ascendancy of the religious right in American politics which started modestly enough with shows like The 700 Club in the 1970s has taken decades.

However, IF (and I DO stress IF) and when there is a greater fusion of religion and politics in this country in the years to come, the talk of some kind of more formal legal codification of that arrangement (you can call it a theocracy if you want) would probably come more into the open than before.

I wrote the following post last month in another thread, and it represents my real feelings about a movement because I've read a LOT of history in my life, and it's not as farfetched as it may sound to people who don't read history that much.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/8664351-post19.html

 

[Pogo]

KG likes to pose the question and then with each answer, move or narrow the goalposts and then go "you missed".

Establishing a theocracy (or any other -cracy) doesn't necessarily require legislation or Constitutional change. Not when it's done in practice in flagrant violation of the law, (as in that story I posted yesterday where a public school is running its own intramural theocracy).

 

[daws101]

1601-1700 is one hundred years. It is 1601 through 1700. A decade is ten years.

I know that but 1700 minus 1601 is 99.

the 100 years is from including BOTH endpoints, 1601 as a year all the way through 1700 as a year (where the next 100 year set starts with 1701).

if you subtract, you are not counting BOTH of the endpoints in the 100 year set, but only counting the "difference" between them, so you get 99.

I think?

thanks em...

 

[emilynghiem]

Please provide your evidence. Quotes and links of proposed legislation that seek to establish a theocracy in the US.

Thank you.

Well...for one thing...it's the Republicans who are always in the public sphere wailing and moaning about "Ammmurrrca being a Krisschun nayshun!"

It's not, yet...they keep screaming that is.

Why would they be doing that, if not to set the table for some sort of theocratic regime?

Dear MarcATL: What makes people or populations "Christian" is where we take laws to heart by conscience, and commit to living by them as our principles.

Where we seek to enforce laws by "agreement in truth"

You can see that we all naturally use this process, although secular thinkers may invoke "natural laws or Constitutional laws" while scriptural believers use the Bible as well.

Since Jesus represents the Lord/Law/Authority over ALL lords or laws,
then both the natural laws and the divine laws are fulfilled in the spirit
of "Jesus" or "Divine Justice."

Anyone who believes, seeks or demands "Justice" is in fact calling on Jesus.

There are differences in denomination according to WHICH LAWS we use to invoke the spirit of "Jesus or Justice" to fulfill.

And there is a political split between people who invoke
Retributive approaches to Justice or
Restorative approaches to Justice;
whether people rely on Government/State authority to invoke Justice
or people go through the Church leadership and body to establish Justice.

M, the problem I have found with secular liberals is if they
DON'T invoke authority directly through Constitutional laws (as with Christians who
use scriptural or Constitutional laws to enforce principles)
but they use their PARTY to defend or impose their views by POLITICAL FORCE.

If you put your PARTY above Constitutional principles and ethics,
this amounts to a religious war between religious denominations.

It is no longer invoking government authority by consent of all people
using the Constitutional standards and structures.

So that is where we are straying from our "Christian" base and foundation of laws
where the Constitutional laws derive govt authority from consent of the people.
if we continue to OVERRIDE CONSENT by abusing political parties,
this is oppressing and denying the democratic process of natural laws
that our Constitutional and govt was founded upon.

All Parties have been abused to this end; corrections cannot come from
continued abuse of political party, but must come from going back to the
Constitutional laws and principles we agree on, and use those to redress grievances to re-establish a consensus on law and government. All abuses of party and govt must stop.

 

[koshergrl]

Yeah you managed to mouth all that tripe without providing a single example...or even actually saying that they were attempting to substitute constitutional republicanism with theocracy.

so try again. Name me (specifically) who is trying to establish theocracy in this country. Tell me how they expect to affect it, who they think should be running the country in the name of God and by divine inspiration, and what organizations they belong to, and what violent movements they have made to further their cause.

One group that admits they believe in Theocracy is the Jehovah's Witnesses.
but they stay AWAY from voting and elections etc. because they don't believe in
the secular govt as their govt. They follow the laws and obey civil authority, but believe in following Jehovah through their organization and teachings they believe are right with God.

So they are not attempting to establish a theocracy in this country.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

PS...I don't think Jehovah's qualify as christians. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so.

 

[koshergrl]

KG likes to pose the question and then with each answer, move or narrow the goalposts and then go "you missed".

Establishing a theocracy (or any other -cracy) doesn't necessarily require legislation or Constitutional change. Not when it's done in practice in flagrant violation of the law, (as in that story I posted yesterday where a public school is running its own intramural theocracy).

Lol...I know you have no idea how ignorant you are, but it still provides a lot of amusement for those of us who actually recognize it.

Yes, establishing a theocracy in this country would require legislation and constitutional change.

 

[Edgetho]

Wow I see a lot of crazy in the posts that are wailing because there is absolutely zero evidence that there is a concentrated Christian movement in the US to establish a theocracy.

Makes a person almost believe the devil's at work. Particularly if by *devil* one means ignorant drop outs who think they're SUPER INTELLECTUAL and biblically savvy!

Post incontrovertible evidence God currently exists..........

The Big Bang was a Creationist Event and has been proved beyond any doubt.

Now, give us some evidence there is no God.

Know who came up with the Big Bang Theory? Of course you don't, that was rhetorical in nature.....

"A Day Without Yesterday:? Father Georges Lemaitre and The Big Bang - These Stone Walls

You libturds just aren't very intelligent. You really aren't.

You get a smidgen of information from some demagogue, you run with it, you have your reach-around buddies cheering for you and you think you're cute.

You're not. You're quite honestly -- Very, very stupid human beings.

It's why I have no respect for you and insult you at every turn.

 

[koshergrl]

And graffiti is not the establishment of theocracy.

Sorry again.

 

[boilermaker55]

Anything or any statement coming from you has no bearing or credence whatsoever.

Wow I see a lot of crazy in the posts that are wailing because there is absolutely zero evidence that there is a concentrated Christian movement in the US to establish a theocracy.

Makes a person almost believe the devil's at work. Particularly if by *devil* one means ignorant drop outs who think they're SUPER INTELLECTUAL and biblically savvy!

Post incontrovertible evidence God currently exists..........

The Big Bang was a Creationist Event and has been proved beyond any doubt.

Now, give us some evidence there is no God.

Know who came up with the Big Bang Theory? Of course you don't, that was rhetorical in nature.....

"A Day Without Yesterday:? Father Georges Lemaitre and The Big Bang - These Stone Walls

You libturds just aren't very intelligent. You really aren't.

You get a smidgen of information from some demagogue, you run with it, you have your reach-around buddies cheering for you and you think you're cute.

You're not. You're quite honestly -- Very, very stupid human beings.

It's why I have no respect for you and insult you at every turn.

 

[Edgetho]

Anything or any statement coming from you has no bearing or credence whatsoever.

Post incontrovertible evidence God currently exists..........

The Big Bang was a Creationist Event and has been proved beyond any doubt.

Now, give us some evidence there is no God.

Know who came up with the Big Bang Theory? Of course you don't, that was rhetorical in nature.....

"A Day Without Yesterday:? Father Georges Lemaitre and The Big Bang - These Stone Walls

You libturds just aren't very intelligent. You really aren't.

You get a smidgen of information from some demagogue, you run with it, you have your reach-around buddies cheering for you and you think you're cute.

You're not. You're quite honestly -- Very, very stupid human beings.

It's why I have no respect for you and insult you at every turn.

 

[Pogo]

Now, give us some evidence there is no God.

You don't "prove" the absence of something, dumbass. The proposition was to prove that "God" exists.

You're quite honestly -- Very, very stupid human beings.

It's why I have no respect for you and insult you at every turn.

Irony alert.

 

[daws101]

Yeah you managed to mouth all that tripe without providing a single example...or even actually saying that they were attempting to substitute constitutional republicanism with theocracy.

so try again. Name me (specifically) who is trying to establish theocracy in this country. Tell me how they expect to affect it, who they think should be running the country in the name of God and by divine inspiration, and what organizations they belong to, and what violent movements they have made to further their cause.

One group that admits they believe in Theocracy is the Jehovah's Witnesses.
but they stay AWAY from voting and elections etc. because they don't believe in
the secular govt as their govt. They follow the laws and obey civil authority, but believe in following Jehovah through their organization and teachings they believe are right with God.

So they are not attempting to establish a theocracy in this country.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

PS...I don't think Jehovah's qualify as christians. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so.

love how you folks argue about whose mythology is more valid.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm sure you would, if that was actually happening, but as usual, you're completely in lalala land talking about nothing that is apropos of anything.