This is... Catholic?!

[Derideo_Te]

Exactly my point. Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion.

Missionaries go out into the fields, and tell folks about Jesus and they get saved on the spot.
No taught religion so, that is not true.

Do you want to try that post again?

I'm under the weather so maybe I missed something, but no, I stand behind it.
You don't think people that have never heard about Jesus can be saved and accept Jesus as their Savior by hearing the Gospel for the 1st time?

Obviously you are missing the fact that you are making my point for me.

Just like a newborn child, these people that the missionaries are preaching to are teaching them your religion by your own admission.

 

[Bonzi]

Exactly my point. Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion.

Missionaries go out into the fields, and tell folks about Jesus and they get saved on the spot.
No taught religion so, that is not true.

Do you want to try that post again?

I'm under the weather so maybe I missed something, but no, I stand behind it.
You don't think people that have never heard about Jesus can be saved and accept Jesus as their Savior by hearing the Gospel for the 1st time?

Obviously you are missing the fact that you are making my point for me.

Just like a newborn child, these people that the missionaries are preaching to are teaching them your religion by your own admission.

But they are not taught or brought up with it.
All they are told is there is a Jesus and he loves them simple scripture.
I hardly call that "taught about religion" - I think of being taught something, something that takes a while to grasp -- salvation can be instantaneous.

 

[ogibillm]

I've said all along Catholics are not representative of Christians as the Bible teaches and as I understand Christianity to be.....

You don't get forgiveness from the Pope or Priest. Also, Baptism is for adult, not babies....

and you expose your ignorance. catholics do not get forgiveness from a pope or priest.
your opinion on baptism is merely that.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Exactly my point. Everyone is born an atheist and must be taught religion.

Missionaries go out into the fields, and tell folks about Jesus and they get saved on the spot.
No taught religion so, that is not true.

Do you want to try that post again?

I'm under the weather so maybe I missed something, but no, I stand behind it.
You don't think people that have never heard about Jesus can be saved and accept Jesus as their Savior by hearing the Gospel for the 1st time?

Obviously you are missing the fact that you are making my point for me.

Just like a newborn child, these people that the missionaries are preaching to are teaching them your religion by your own admission.

But they are not taught or brought up with it.
All they are told is there is a Jesus and he loves them simple scripture.
I hardly call that "taught about religion" - I think of being taught something, something that takes a while to grasp -- salvation can be instantaneous.

You are likening your "get out of perdition free" card to instant coffee now?

Obviously you have never done any missionary work whatsoever.

The concepts behind the "get out of perdition free" card need to be taught before it makes any sense. The locals have to grasp the idea of your god, the concept of being sinners, what actually constitutes sinning, have their own sins explained to them, the penalties for being sinners and then how to go about getting their own "get out of perdition free" card.

That is not "instantaneous".

That is an education very similar to what is taught to children in Sunday School.

So yes, it takes a while. It is not a light switch for anyone who hasn't been taught about your religion in the first place.

 

[Bonzi]

Missionaries go out into the fields, and tell folks about Jesus and they get saved on the spot.
No taught religion so, that is not true.

Do you want to try that post again?

I'm under the weather so maybe I missed something, but no, I stand behind it.
You don't think people that have never heard about Jesus can be saved and accept Jesus as their Savior by hearing the Gospel for the 1st time?

Obviously you are missing the fact that you are making my point for me.

Just like a newborn child, these people that the missionaries are preaching to are teaching them your religion by your own admission.

But they are not taught or brought up with it.
All they are told is there is a Jesus and he loves them simple scripture.
I hardly call that "taught about religion" - I think of being taught something, something that takes a while to grasp -- salvation can be instantaneous.

You are likening your "get out of perdition free" card to instant coffee now?

Obviously you have never done any missionary work whatsoever.

The concepts behind the "get out of perdition free" card need to be taught before it makes any sense. The locals have to grasp the idea of your god, the concept of being sinners, what actually constitutes sinning, have their own sins explained to them, the penalties for being sinners and then how to go about getting their own "get out of perdition free" card.

That is not "instantaneous".

That is an education very similar to what is taught to children in Sunday School.

So yes, it takes a while. It is not a light switch for anyone who hasn't been taught about your religion in the first place.

I've not been in the Missionary field, but have been told stories by missionaries that claim otherwise.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you want to try that post again?

I'm under the weather so maybe I missed something, but no, I stand behind it.
You don't think people that have never heard about Jesus can be saved and accept Jesus as their Savior by hearing the Gospel for the 1st time?

Obviously you are missing the fact that you are making my point for me.

Just like a newborn child, these people that the missionaries are preaching to are teaching them your religion by your own admission.

But they are not taught or brought up with it.
All they are told is there is a Jesus and he loves them simple scripture.
I hardly call that "taught about religion" - I think of being taught something, something that takes a while to grasp -- salvation can be instantaneous.

You are likening your "get out of perdition free" card to instant coffee now?

Obviously you have never done any missionary work whatsoever.

The concepts behind the "get out of perdition free" card need to be taught before it makes any sense. The locals have to grasp the idea of your god, the concept of being sinners, what actually constitutes sinning, have their own sins explained to them, the penalties for being sinners and then how to go about getting their own "get out of perdition free" card.

That is not "instantaneous".

That is an education very similar to what is taught to children in Sunday School.

So yes, it takes a while. It is not a light switch for anyone who hasn't been taught about your religion in the first place.

I've not been in the Missionary field, but have been told stories by missionaries that claim otherwise.

Gosh!

You have been lied to by missionaries!

What did I say earlier about how you can tell when someone is lying to you?

Well you can include when they are telling you about how wonderful their religion is too.

My spouse comes a long line of missionaries going all the way back the the time of Dickens. I have read the journals and spoken to those who were still alive when I met her.

The majority of the drudgery is day to day survival and trying to improve the living conditions and the health of the people they are ministering to.

The teaching of the gospels happens when the locals are not struggling to survive. And even then there is the need to gain their trust first.

It is a long and arduous and sometimes even life threatening job.

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

 

[aris2chat]

So I was bored at work and found this Wikipedia article: Catholic social teaching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I skimmed through it and a fearful coldness began creeping up my spine as I realized someone had more or less written my own values verbatim. Somehow Catholics have basically copied everything I believe in, which offends and horrifies me as a secular atheist to the core. Is there any other group or whatever that teaches these things?

depends on what is you values.

There are several forms of christianity

try your local church and ask

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

depends on what is you values.

There are several forms of christianity

try your local church and ask

Nah, I'm good.

 

[BluePhantom]

I've said all along Catholics are not representative of Christians as the Bible teaches and as I understand Christianity to be.....

You don't get forgiveness from the Pope or Priest. Also, Baptism is for adult, not babies....

Most RC do not even go to confession anymore, and also if you have never been to confession don't knock it. If not for RC you wouldn't even have Christianity, and whether you like it or not, your following Greek and Roman theology.

Oh rubbish! There were many different forms of early Christianity. Had the proto-Catholic view not been adopted by Constantine and Theodosius some other form would have been. Christianity today would be very different as a result, but to say that we would not have Christianity at all is simply absurd.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good values and principles are common to all people.

Are you delusional?

All children are born atheists and have natural tendencies towards good values. As they grow up they leave behind selfishness.

The majority of negative values and the lack of principles are learned from others, as is religion.

That is reality.

No, your thesis is assertion, which the rest does not support. So, not it is not reality.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Good values and principles are common to all people.

Are you delusional?

All children are born atheists and have natural tendencies towards good values. As they grow up they leave behind selfishness.

The majority of negative values and the lack of principles are learned from others, as is religion.

That is reality.

No, your thesis is assertion, which the rest does not support. So, not it is not reality.

So you are saying that it is impossible for there to be a secular definition of a good person?

 

[JakeStarkey]

De, you don't understand Christianity; that is very cleaer.

Here is another of your assertions you suppose as reality: "Everyone is born an atheist and that has always been true throughout history and will continue to be true for as long as mankind survives."

Put on your religionist classes and suppose what would be a good life here, please.

 

[Derideo_Te]

De, you don't understand Christianity; that is very cleaer.

Here is another of your assertions you suppose as reality: "Everyone is born an atheist and that has always been true throughout history and will continue to be true for as long as mankind survives."

Put on your religionist classes and suppose what would be a good life here, please.

The dogma of the religion in question defines what would be a good life and there would be a great deal in common amongst all religions.

Furthermore what would be in common would also pertain to what fits the secular definition of a good life.

And I stand by the statement that everyone is born an atheist because everyone has to be taught about religion. No one is born with the knowledge of any religion.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That is mere assertion. A child has to be taught about atheism, there is no deity.

Doesn't work logically.

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

 

[Derideo_Te]

That is mere assertion. A child has to be taught about atheism, there is no deity.

Doesn't work logically.

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

Nope, that is backwards.

A child is born without any knowledge of any deity therefore it is "without deities" which is the ancient Greek root of the term atheism.

Etymology

Etymology

The words "atheism" and "atheist" originated from the Ancient Greek word "ἄθεος"4 ("átheos") meaning "without deities" without any direct or implied anti-theistic (or anti-religious) connotation, for it was impartial in its initially intended use. Philosophical atheist thought is also believed to have begun in Asia and Europe as early as 600 BCE.

Although "atheism" is sometimes assumed to be derived from the word "theism," it actually predates12 it. Originally the concept of "atheism" was contributed by the Greeks in 5th Century BCE, and then the words "atheist" and "atheism" were later introduced in the mid-to-late 1580s CE (adapted from the French words "athée" and "athéisme"), almost one century before the words "theist" and "theism" were added to the English language in the 1660s and 1670s CE.​

 

[Derideo_Te]

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

Agreed!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Let's be fully aware here that the atheist and theist has to respect and protect the other's right to believe whatever or nothing, and both need to understand each has the right to speak his or her mind in public and vote accordingly.

 

[ogibillm]

That is mere assertion. A child has to be taught about atheism, there is no deity.

Doesn't work logically.

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

children are born believing in a deity?

 

[JakeStarkey]

That is mere assertion. A child has to be taught about atheism, there is no deity.

Doesn't work logically.

We are stuck with each other, and thank heavens for the Constitution.

children are born believing in a deity?

Those are your words, not mine. And you can't prove they are not. Earliest man has left traces that he believe in something bigger than himself. That will never change.

Believe or not as you wish, but try not to interfere with others' beliefs. You have the protection of the Constitution and enough actual believers' support for your right to believe to not be threatened by the crazy social conservatives.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Enough instances suggest to me that a sizable minority among the Millennials and a few among the younger genXrs that a movement is afoot to deny the religious to have the right to say in the public forum. One, such a movement does not have the support of the Constitution. Two, such an effort if pushed will have a very unhappy consequence for the anti-Godists, because the majority of religionists greatly outnumber the Anti-Godists. The latter will be startled to find that many agnostics and atheists will side with the religionists.