The Value of a College Education

[DGS49]

I see a lot of discussion in this forum that dances around this issue but doesn't really attack it directly. What is the value of a liberal arts education?

There isn't really much question about the value of a "professional" or "pre-professional" education at a college or university. If you are studying accounting or engineering or even Business Administration, you are making an economic assessment that this formal education will have some value to you in life. In some cases you can't even work in the field without a degree. You may be right and maybe not, but it is a decision that can be made rationally.

But that is not really the case for a degree in Philosophy or History, or English Lit - the formerly-called, "Liberal Arts."

For the most part (at least based on my personal experience) these courses are not terribly rigorous. You read the assignments, listen to the professor, talk about the subject, maybe consult a secondary source for some insights, and that's about it. You understand the assigned book or philosophy or concept, and you parrot it back on your exam. You take your A or B and move on. A year from now, you have forgotten most of it.

But let's be generous and assume that you go through your programme, get your degree, and as a result of this education you develop a talent for "critical thinking." You have a healthy skepticism about new concepts and people, and you learn how to investigate, compare, evaluate, and ultimately draw your own opinion on the subject matter. You learn how to distinguish valid, reliable information from the crap that you see from most public resources, and you have learned how to access the most reliable information fairly quickly.

You learn critical listening, thinking, and communicating skills, both orally and in writing. You could, for example, prepare a cogent and informative PowerPoint presentation or a "white paper" on an issue that your company, agency, or organization is confronting, and defend it against - let's say - fairly aggressive challenges. You could make an oral presentation before a dozen co-workers and not make a complete ass of yourself - after all, you did it in Communications class.

For today's world, you have the intelligence and resourcefulness to locate government regulations that impact something your employer is doing, and at least get a general idea of what is required to comply with those regulations, and what agencies you will be dealing with.

It is not unreasonable to expect all of this from a Liberal Arts education. Maybe some people don't get there, but they should.

So the questions are: (a) Could you have reached this point in your intellectual development WITHOUT having gone to college? and (b) If you have reached this point, will you be able to convince any typical employer that you are as "educated" or "valuable" as a college graduate?

These are not easy questions. There is a difference between me reading Shakespeare, and me attending a university course that is focused on Shakespeare. The professor brings not only his own insights into the classroom, but also the insights of the most renowned experts in the field for the past 200 years. You will hear and read other peoples' viewpoints on the subject matter - people whose opinions have stood the test of time.

Can you possibly "get as much" from a personal reading of Shakespeare as you could in a college classroom? I don't think so. It is just as likely that you misinterpret what he is trying to say, or miss out on some significant points that were not obvious just by your reading of it. This is just one example, but I think the same principle applies to history, philosophy, literature, and certainly the "soft" sciences like sociology and psychology. Reading books on your own just doesn't get you there, and I don't care what Good Will Hunting had to say on the subject. A library card doesn't get you the same education as four years at Harvard.

The second thing is, can you convince some employer that you are as "smart" or valuable as a college grad? Probably not. No matter what position (or promotion) you are going after, very few employers will give the same weight to simply being smart and well-read as they will to a college degree, even if it is a ridiculous degree from a third-rate school.

A personal anecdote, if you please: After I got out of the service in 1971 I went to the local community college for two years, then decided to work full-time and go to school at night. I took the Federal Government's aptitude test (the "PACE" exam) and scored so high that, with my 5% veterans preference, my score was 104%. And I still was not able to convince the interviewers that I was as capable as other applicants who had "nothing" degrees from third-rate colleges. It was only because they had to hire me (because of my status as a Vietnam Vet) that I was hired. They were amazed when I performed as well as the college grads who were hired at the same time.

For better or for worse, it still makes sense to get a college degree if you can.

 

[Katzndogz]

A liberal arts education is worthless. College itself has been devalued. A college degree in liberal arts has the same value as a high school diploma 20 years ago.

 

[rightwinger]

I see a lot of discussion in this forum that dances around this issue but doesn't really attack it directly. What is the value of a liberal arts education?

There isn't really much question about the value of a "professional" or "pre-professional" education at a college or university. If you are studying accounting or engineering or even Business Administration, you are making an economic assessment that this formal education will have some value to you in life. In some cases you can't even work in the field without a degree. You may be right and maybe not, but it is a decision that can be made rationally.

But that is not really the case for a degree in Philosophy or History, or English Lit - the formerly-called, "Liberal Arts."

For the most part (at least based on my personal experience) these courses are not terribly rigorous. You read the assignments, listen to the professor, talk about the subject, maybe consult a secondary source for some insights, and that's about it. You understand the assigned book or philosophy or concept, and you parrot it back on your exam. You take your A or B and move on. A year from now, you have forgotten most of it.

But let's be generous and assume that you go through your programme, get your degree, and as a result of this education you develop a talent for "critical thinking." You have a healthy skepticism about new concepts and people, and you learn how to investigate, compare, evaluate, and ultimately draw your own opinion on the subject matter. You learn how to distinguish valid, reliable information from the crap that you see from most public resources, and you have learned how to access the most reliable information fairly quickly.

You learn critical listening, thinking, and communicating skills, both orally and in writing. You could, for example, prepare a cogent and informative PowerPoint presentation or a "white paper" on an issue that your company, agency, or organization is confronting, and defend it against - let's say - fairly aggressive challenges. You could make an oral presentation before a dozen co-workers and not make a complete ass of yourself - after all, you did it in Communications class.

For today's world, you have the intelligence and resourcefulness to locate government regulations that impact something your employer is doing, and at least get a general idea of what is required to comply with those regulations, and what agencies you will be dealing with.

It is not unreasonable to expect all of this from a Liberal Arts education. Maybe some people don't get there, but they should.

So the questions are: (a) Could you have reached this point in your intellectual development WITHOUT having gone to college? and (b) If you have reached this point, will you be able to convince any typical employer that you are as "educated" or "valuable" as a college graduate?

These are not easy questions. There is a difference between me reading Shakespeare, and me attending a university course that is focused on Shakespeare. The professor brings not only his own insights into the classroom, but also the insights of the most renowned experts in the field for the past 200 years. You will hear and read other peoples' viewpoints on the subject matter - people whose opinions have stood the test of time.

Can you possibly "get as much" from a personal reading of Shakespeare as you could in a college classroom? I don't think so. It is just as likely that you misinterpret what he is trying to say, or miss out on some significant points that were not obvious just by your reading of it. This is just one example, but I think the same principle applies to history, philosophy, literature, and certainly the "soft" sciences like sociology and psychology. Reading books on your own just doesn't get you there, and I don't care what Good Will Hunting had to say on the subject. A library card doesn't get you the same education as four years at Harvard.

The second thing is, can you convince some employer that you are as "smart" or valuable as a college grad? Probably not. No matter what position (or promotion) you are going after, very few employers will give the same weight to simply being smart and well-read as they will to a college degree, even if it is a ridiculous degree from a third-rate school.

A personal anecdote, if you please: After I got out of the service in 1971 I went to the local community college for two years, then decided to work full-time and go to school at night. I took the Federal Government's aptitude test (the "PACE" exam) and scored so high that, with my 5% veterans preference, my score was 104%. And I still was not able to convince the interviewers that I was as capable as other applicants who had "nothing" degrees from third-rate colleges. It was only because they had to hire me (because of my status as a Vietnam Vet) that I was hired. They were amazed when I performed as well as the college grads who were hired at the same time.

For better or for worse, it still makes sense to get a college degree if you can.

A college degree is what you make of it.

Some degrees (engineering, accounting, business) put you in a better position to be employable. But you still have to function in the job. The degree may get you in the door, but beyond that, you are on your own.

If you have a Liberal Arts degree and have good writing and speaking skills it may be harder to get that first job, but you should still succeed if you have initiative and good people skills

 

[Spiderman]

The everyone should go to college manta is wrong.

Outside of technical and hard scientific studies, engineering,medicine, etc most degrees are a waste of money.

Hell even high school wasn't worth it to me.

Education should be a pragmatic endeavor. If you need to learn something to accomplish a task or even move up in a job then learn it. Getting a degree for the sake of getting a degree is a waste of both time and money.

 

[boedicca]

The value of a college education should be measured in terms of future earning potential for the degree.

A computer science degree is going to be more valuable than a Comp Lit one.

 

[Katzndogz]

You might still get that first job, but what kind of job will it be? My husband's daughter has a liberal arts degree. She finally got a job as an "administrative assistant" (i.e. secretary) for which a college degree was unnecessary.

 

[boedicca]

You might still get that first job, but what kind of job will it be? My husband's daughter has a liberal arts degree. She finally got a job as an "administrative assistant" (i.e. secretary) for which a college degree was unnecessary.

And is she has tens of thousands of dollars of student debt, she'll be paying off her loans for the rest of her life.

 

[Moonglow]

Liberal arts is as good as any other degree.No matter what degree you have you should enjoy studying it. Most liberal arts degrees are for law degrees, doctorates for being a professor, etc.
It takes all the teeth on a gear to make it work, meaning that not all people can be attorneys, accountants, scientists etc.

 

[rightwinger]

You might still get that first job, but what kind of job will it be? My husband's daughter has a liberal arts degree. She finally got a job as an "administrative assistant" (i.e. secretary) for which a college degree was unnecessary.

Doesn't mean she will stay a Secretary. The job is a foot in the door. If she is a skilled employee, other job opportunities will open up. I have seen many good workers rise from the secretarial ranks

 

[DGS49]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

 

[Spiderman]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

Liberal arts imo is a complete waste of time and money. Reading Shakespeare or studying history wasn't going to help me make money so I didn't waste my time.

I didn't graduate HS because I realized that another year sitting through those classes was not going to improve my chances of making money where working would.

I learned what I needed to learn as I needed to learn it and I didn't have to go to college to do it.

 

[rightwinger]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

Liberal arts imo is a complete waste of time and money. Reading Shakespeare or studying history wasn't going to help me make money so I didn't waste my time.

I didn't graduate HS because I realized that another year sitting through those classes was not going to improve my chances of making money where working would.

I learned what I needed to learn as I needed to learn it and I didn't have to go to college to do it.

As usual, those who never got near a college dismiss it as a waste

 

[OnePercenter]

You might still get that first job, but what kind of job will it be? My husband's daughter has a liberal arts degree. She finally got a job as an "administrative assistant" (i.e. secretary) for which a college degree was unnecessary.

Why don't you e-mail this link to your Step Daughter.

How to turn a liberal arts degree into a paycheck

How do you know she didn't get the job because of her college degree?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

President Obama said that people should be able to get the education they want. College or a trade school, we should be investing in our own country by educating our young people.

What caught my eye in this post is your last statement. I've almost always invented my own job - eg - worked for myself. And, I've done very well. But, part of my success was that I got an education.

Having said that however, it was a lot different when I was working my way through college. I held down two jobs and paid as I went. I would get a paycheck and go to the financial aid office to make a payment. When I graduated, I did not have any debt.

Age plays a role too. When I was in my 30s, my education was important. At 67, it means nothing - except that learning for the sake of learning is always a good thing.

rightwinger

As usual, those who never got near a college dismiss it as a waste

And, they're the least qualified to make that statement.

Its never too late to get an education though.

 

[Spiderman]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

Liberal arts imo is a complete waste of time and money. Reading Shakespeare or studying history wasn't going to help me make money so I didn't waste my time.

I didn't graduate HS because I realized that another year sitting through those classes was not going to improve my chances of making money where working would.

I learned what I needed to learn as I needed to learn it and I didn't have to go to college to do it.

As usual, those who never got near a college dismiss it as a waste

How much money did your liberal arts degree earn you?

If you took all the money, tuition, books,fees etc, spent on a degree in literature, history or whatever and put that money to work for you by starting a business, investing etc would you have more money now or less?

And I've been near colleges. Like I said most of my tenants are either attending college or have some degree or one sort or another. I make more than all of them. So I obviously put my money to better use than they did.

 

[rightwinger]

I didn't mean to imply that "everyone should go to college."

I was considering the questions of (a) the value of a liberal arts education, and (b) whether one could get one without going to college.

There are clearly many good careers that do not require much formal education, and, more importantly,

The best way to get rich is to be an entrepreneur, and spending four years in college to an entrepreneurial person could well be a complete waste of time.

President Obama said that people should be able to get the education they want. College or a trade school, we should be investing in our own country by educating our young people.

What caught my eye in this post is your last statement. I've almost always invented my own job - eg - worked for myself. And, I've done very well. But, part of my success was that I got an education.

Having said that however, it was a lot different when I was working my way through college. I held down two jobs and paid as I went. I would get a paycheck and go to the financial aid office to make a payment. When I graduated, I did not have any debt.

Age plays a role too. When I was in my 30s, my education was important. At 67, it means nothing - except that learning for the sake of learning is always a good thing.

rightwinger

As usual, those who never got near a college dismiss it as a waste

And, they're the least qualified to make that statement.

Its never too late to get an education though.

I never understood the rightwing fear of education....

You think you are better than me?

 

[rightwinger]

Liberal arts imo is a complete waste of time and money. Reading Shakespeare or studying history wasn't going to help me make money so I didn't waste my time.

I didn't graduate HS because I realized that another year sitting through those classes was not going to improve my chances of making money where working would.

I learned what I needed to learn as I needed to learn it and I didn't have to go to college to do it.

As usual, those who never got near a college dismiss it as a waste

How much money did your liberal arts degree earn you?

If you took all the money, tuition, books,fees etc, spent on a degree in literature, history or whatever and put that money to work for you by starting a business, investing etc would you have more money now or less?

And I've been near colleges. Like I said most of my tenants are either attending college or have some degree or one sort or another. I make more than all of them. So I obviously put my money to better use than they did.

I didn't get a liberal arts degree, I got an engineering degree and it earned me well over a million dollars

But I appreciate those with a liberal arts degree. I admire people who write well, who have good critical thinking skills, who can put things in historical perspective. Overall, they make interesting people to talk to. I have to admit, most of the engineers I work with have a bit of geek in them

I agree that college is horribly overpriced but I do not think that it is a waste of time. For every college grad you point out who works in Starbucks, I can point out ten High School grads who will never leave the trailer park
Yes you can open your own business and succeed without a college education. But most businesses fail. Unless you have a family backing you, you have very little margin for error. To sell "open your own business" as an alternative to education is an invitation to failure

 

[editec]

My rather expensive education prepared me to be an interesting conversant at a cocktail party.


Had I been to the manor borne that would have been enough.

Basically the liberal arts teaches one how not to be bored.

Good thing, too because most of us Liberal Arts majors have plenty of free time on our hands.

Unless of course we're working three crappy jobs to make ends meet.

 

[Sunshine]

I see a lot of discussion in this forum that dances around this issue but doesn't really attack it directly. What is the value of a liberal arts education?

There isn't really much question about the value of a "professional" or "pre-professional" education at a college or university. If you are studying accounting or engineering or even Business Administration, you are making an economic assessment that this formal education will have some value to you in life. In some cases you can't even work in the field without a degree. You may be right and maybe not, but it is a decision that can be made rationally.

But that is not really the case for a degree in Philosophy or History, or English Lit - the formerly-called, "Liberal Arts."

For the most part (at least based on my personal experience) these courses are not terribly rigorous. You read the assignments, listen to the professor, talk about the subject, maybe consult a secondary source for some insights, and that's about it. You understand the assigned book or philosophy or concept, and you parrot it back on your exam. You take your A or B and move on. A year from now, you have forgotten most of it.

But let's be generous and assume that you go through your programme, get your degree, and as a result of this education you develop a talent for "critical thinking." You have a healthy skepticism about new concepts and people, and you learn how to investigate, compare, evaluate, and ultimately draw your own opinion on the subject matter. You learn how to distinguish valid, reliable information from the crap that you see from most public resources, and you have learned how to access the most reliable information fairly quickly.

You learn critical listening, thinking, and communicating skills, both orally and in writing. You could, for example, prepare a cogent and informative PowerPoint presentation or a "white paper" on an issue that your company, agency, or organization is confronting, and defend it against - let's say - fairly aggressive challenges. You could make an oral presentation before a dozen co-workers and not make a complete ass of yourself - after all, you did it in Communications class.

For today's world, you have the intelligence and resourcefulness to locate government regulations that impact something your employer is doing, and at least get a general idea of what is required to comply with those regulations, and what agencies you will be dealing with.

It is not unreasonable to expect all of this from a Liberal Arts education. Maybe some people don't get there, but they should.

So the questions are: (a) Could you have reached this point in your intellectual development WITHOUT having gone to college? and (b) If you have reached this point, will you be able to convince any typical employer that you are as "educated" or "valuable" as a college graduate?

These are not easy questions. There is a difference between me reading Shakespeare, and me attending a university course that is focused on Shakespeare. The professor brings not only his own insights into the classroom, but also the insights of the most renowned experts in the field for the past 200 years. You will hear and read other peoples' viewpoints on the subject matter - people whose opinions have stood the test of time.

Can you possibly "get as much" from a personal reading of Shakespeare as you could in a college classroom? I don't think so. It is just as likely that you misinterpret what he is trying to say, or miss out on some significant points that were not obvious just by your reading of it. This is just one example, but I think the same principle applies to history, philosophy, literature, and certainly the "soft" sciences like sociology and psychology. Reading books on your own just doesn't get you there, and I don't care what Good Will Hunting had to say on the subject. A library card doesn't get you the same education as four years at Harvard.

The second thing is, can you convince some employer that you are as "smart" or valuable as a college grad? Probably not. No matter what position (or promotion) you are going after, very few employers will give the same weight to simply being smart and well-read as they will to a college degree, even if it is a ridiculous degree from a third-rate school.

A personal anecdote, if you please: After I got out of the service in 1971 I went to the local community college for two years, then decided to work full-time and go to school at night. I took the Federal Government's aptitude test (the "PACE" exam) and scored so high that, with my 5% veterans preference, my score was 104%. And I still was not able to convince the interviewers that I was as capable as other applicants who had "nothing" degrees from third-rate colleges. It was only because they had to hire me (because of my status as a Vietnam Vet) that I was hired. They were amazed when I performed as well as the college grads who were hired at the same time.

For better or for worse, it still makes sense to get a college degree if you can.

When I was in law school, I did a little stint in academia to have more time to study law. The pay sucked. But if you intend to spend your life in academia, there are ways you can make some serious bucks. You just have to learn the inroads. Schools worth their pay understand that they have to let faculty make money where they can, so many of them allow faculty members to reap the benefits of their research and inventions. I'm thinking mostly the scientific community here. But others can publish and are expected to. Scholarly journals don't pay, but the speaking tours and books do. Whatever your field, that college degree beats minimum wage.

 

[Sunshine]

My rather expensive education prepared me to be an interesting conversant at a cocktail party.


Had I been to the manor borne that would have been enough.

Basically the liberal arts teaches one how not to be bored.

Good thing, too because most of us Liberal Arts majors have plenty of free time on our hands.

Unless of course we're working three crappy jobs to make ends meet.

Write a book.