The Treaty of Tripoli - The End of the Argument

[Sallow]

Thanks for posting this. I honestly had never seen or heard of it before. But in my research of it I can see you left out one inconvenient fact:

The treaty was renegotiated 8 years later and those famous words were left out.

Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11. Christian nation phrase

See, this article you wrote and posted is like someone saying that "according to US Law Blacks are only to be considered 3/5 of a person" but leaving out the Emancipation proclamation and the 13th Amendment.

THREAD FAIL!

I encourage everyone to do their own research and just ignore the OP's article.

This is not neccesarily a thread fail at all. You can argue that the original document, while not binding, shows the original intent of the majority of our founding fathers, or atleast where their mindset was at the birth of our nation. Simply because this was left out of the document when it was renegotiated doesn't mean that they intended for this nation to change within 8 years and BECOME a Christian nation. Otherwise I'm sure they would have added their own "this is a Christian nation clause". Either way, we are still clearly a secular nation if we follow the constitution alone.

The original document WAS binding because they signed it. They renegotiated it later. You obviously didn't read any of the links provided.

And the "original intent" of our founders was to keep slavery, you think we should go back to that? Shit, even you doper Liberals use that argument!

Besides Freedom Of Religion is much different than Freedom From Religion. There is no Freedom From Religion as you religion haters argue.

The idea was that governments shouldn't create a religion and force you to worship it.

America isn't a Christian Nation. It isn't a Muslim Nation. It isn't a Mormon Nation. It isn't a Church of Scientology Nation either.

More importantly, it isn't an Anti-Religion Nation was well. Don't forget that.

No..it's freedom FROM religion as well. The Constitution makes no such distinction.

Religious nuts do.

 

[Truthmatters]

Our country is for all people and not just christians.

Those that say it is dont understand that freedom of religion also covers freedom from religion.

 

[dilloduck]

Could y'all stop arguing a point that very few if any here believe. We know our nation isn't Christian. It just happens that a lot of the first settlers here were and millions who live here today happen to be. America as a nation doesn't have a religion and doesn't promote one.

Arguing against ghosts makes me wonder what kind of cult you are in. No one plans on burning you at the stake. Just carry on with your live's.

( How many treaties did we make that were just pure lies to accomplish a temporary goal?)

 

[dilloduck]

This is not neccesarily a thread fail at all. You can argue that the original document, while not binding, shows the original intent of the majority of our founding fathers, or atleast where their mindset was at the birth of our nation. Simply because this was left out of the document when it was renegotiated doesn't mean that they intended for this nation to change within 8 years and BECOME a Christian nation. Otherwise I'm sure they would have added their own "this is a Christian nation clause". Either way, we are still clearly a secular nation if we follow the constitution alone.

The original document WAS binding because they signed it. They renegotiated it later. You obviously didn't read any of the links provided.

And the "original intent" of our founders was to keep slavery, you think we should go back to that? Shit, even you doper Liberals use that argument!

Besides Freedom Of Religion is much different than Freedom From Religion. There is no Freedom From Religion as you religion haters argue.

The idea was that governments shouldn't create a religion and force you to worship it.

America isn't a Christian Nation. It isn't a Muslim Nation. It isn't a Mormon Nation. It isn't a Church of Scientology Nation either.

More importantly, it isn't an Anti-Religion Nation was well. Don't forget that.

No..it's freedom FROM religion as well. The Constitution makes no such distinction.

Religious nuts do.

Federal law will not make you dress up and go to church. ANY church. That is what the law is about.

 

[konradv]

“ … the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” 1. US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Thanks for posting this. I honestly had never seen or heard of it before. But in my research of it I can see you left out one inconvenient fact:

The treaty was renegotiated 8 years later and those famous words were left out.

Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11. Christian nation phrase

See, this article you wrote and posted is like someone saying that "according to US Law Blacks are only to be considered 3/5 of a person" but then leaving out the Emancipation proclamation and the 13th Amendment. I think Christians call this "The Sin of Omission".

THREAD FAIL!

I encourage everyone to do their own research and just ignore the OP's article.

Not so fast. Did you miss this part of the article?

We do not argue that eliminating Article 11 is the same as proving that America was indeed "founded on the Christian religion"

So the original treaty DID include what the OP asserted and the revised treaty IN NO WAY asserted the opposite.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

“ … the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” 1. US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Thanks for posting this. I honestly had never seen or heard of it before. But in my research of it I can see you left out one inconvenient fact:

The treaty was renegotiated 8 years later and those famous words were left out.

Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11. Christian nation phrase

See, this article you wrote and posted is like someone saying that "according to US Law Blacks are only to be considered 3/5 of a person" but then leaving out the Emancipation proclamation and the 13th Amendment. I think Christians call this "The Sin of Omission".

THREAD FAIL!

I encourage everyone to do their own research and just ignore the OP's article.

Not so fast. Did you miss this part of the article?

We do not argue that eliminating Article 11 is the same as proving that America was indeed "founded on the Christian religion"

So the original treaty DID include what the OP asserted and the revised treaty IN NO WAY asserted the opposite.

He already recognizes the fallacy of his claim .. he's now off arguing something different.

I give him credit at least for attempting to find some truth he can hang onto in the face of a truth he did not know.

Others who believe as he does will run from the truth and hide.

There is no escape from this history.

 

[uptownlivin90]

Thanks for posting this. I honestly had never seen or heard of it before. But in my research of it I can see you left out one inconvenient fact:

The treaty was renegotiated 8 years later and those famous words were left out.

Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11. Christian nation phrase

See, this article you wrote and posted is like someone saying that "according to US Law Blacks are only to be considered 3/5 of a person" but leaving out the Emancipation proclamation and the 13th Amendment.

THREAD FAIL!

I encourage everyone to do their own research and just ignore the OP's article.

This is not neccesarily a thread fail at all. You can argue that the original document, while not binding, shows the original intent of the majority of our founding fathers, or atleast where their mindset was at the birth of our nation. Simply because this was left out of the document when it was renegotiated doesn't mean that they intended for this nation to change within 8 years and BECOME a Christian nation. Otherwise I'm sure they would have added their own "this is a Christian nation clause". Either way, we are still clearly a secular nation if we follow the constitution alone.

The original document WAS binding because they signed it. They renegotiated it later. You obviously didn't read any of the links provided.

And the "original intent" of our founders was to keep slavery, you think we should go back to that? Shit, even you doper Liberals use that argument!

Besides Freedom Of Religion is much different than Freedom From Religion. There is no Freedom From Religion as you religion haters argue.

The idea was that governments shouldn't create a religion and force you to worship it.

America isn't a Christian Nation. It isn't a Muslim Nation. It isn't a Mormon Nation. It isn't a Church of Scientology Nation either.

More importantly, it isn't an Anti-Religion Nation was well. Don't forget that.

And the "original intent" of our founders was to keep slavery, you think we should go back to that? Shit, even you doper Liberals use that argument!

The argument is about whether or not this nation was founded as "a christian nation" as many so believe, not slavery. Try to keep up.

Besides Freedom Of Religion is much different than Freedom From Religion. There is no Freedom From Religion as you religion haters argue.

I'm a devout Pentecostal Christian. I grew up Pentecostal all my life around the most religious families you'll ever meet. There's a line of four generations of holy-rollin', tongue talkin, fire and brimstone, holiness preachers on my mother's side. Try again.

The idea was that governments shouldn't create a religion and force you to worship it.

If you read the constitution it'll be clear that what you just said is a falsehood.

America isn't a Christian Nation. It isn't a Muslim Nation. It isn't a Mormon Nation. It isn't a Church of Scientology Nation either.

You're right.

 

[Intense]

Blackascoal

There is a little known document that is not generally taught in American history that essentially ends the argument of whether the Founders intended America to be a Christian nation. It’s called the Treaty of Tripoli, specifically, Article 11.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." -- Signed, George Washington, President of the United States, 4 November 1796.

“ … the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

When the Treaty came before the new government of John Adams to be ratified, it was read ALOUD in it’s entirety on the floor of the Senate, and copies were distributed to every senator. It passed UNANIMOUSLY on June 7, 1797.(1) The caps are meant for those who may believe or may want to believe this an obscure document passed in the dead of night by a few equally obscure politicians. That would be a false reading of the facts. A true reading of the facts demonstrates that Washington, Adams, and the Senate went out of their way to record this and affirmation of their sentiment on the separation of church and state.

Upon passage, Adams signed the treaty and proclaimed it to the nation on 10 June 1797 and he wrote the following:

"Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof."
reduced. 4-5 paragraphs then read the rest at the link
The Treaty of Tripoli - The End Of the Argument

1. US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entagled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)