The Success of the Big Lie

[PoliticalChic]

This was debunked here.

Thanks, DT, but I'm not sure what your link debunks. That seems to be a recounting of a trial, with Mc telling a defendent that he was planning on turning testimony over to the defendant's employer and assuming that soon thereafter they would no longer be employed. Was the defendant guilty?

Quick reply:

McCarthy's investigation in no way whatsoever consitutes a trial.

Second, the person McCarthy is threatening was a teacher, not a Federal employee. There's no security risk.

Third: McCarthy blatantly attempts to criminalize the 5th ammendment there.

So no, McCarthy did not limit himself to just security risks, and yes, McCarthy did set out to ruin lives.

Name them.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Name them.

Read the article.

By the way, it is curious that you've left this post hanging. From your own link Ms. Moss was suspended from her job from 1951 to 1954. While not necessarily being ruined, being suspended for an extended period of time for an accusation that McCarthy could not prove is certainly damaging.

I also want to mention this quote from you:

Had it not been for heros such as McCarthy, whose campaign the American public understood and supported, there would never have been a push-back against Communism by such anti-Communists as Eleanor Roosevelt, Arthur Schlesinger,jr, Walter Reuther, Hubert Humphrey, and others- none of whom supported McCarthy.

As you yourself point out McCarthy also enabled the environment that brought such damaging things as the Hollywood Blacklist and the blacklists in academia and industry, not to mention the HUAC. Those things most certainly did harm people and ruin lives.

McCarthy must take the blame for the actions he himself helped set in motion.

 

[LuckyDan]

Name them.

Read the article.

By the way, it is curious that you've left this post hanging. From your own link Ms. Moss was suspended from her job from 1951 to 1954. While not necessarily being ruined, being suspended for an extended period of time for an accusation that McCarthy could not prove is certainly damaging.

I also want to mention this quote from you:

Had it not been for heros such as McCarthy, whose campaign the American public understood and supported, there would never have been a push-back against Communism by such anti-Communists as Eleanor Roosevelt, Arthur Schlesinger,jr, Walter Reuther, Hubert Humphrey, and others- none of whom supported McCarthy.

As you yourself point out McCarthy also enabled the environment that brought such damaging things as the Hollywood Blacklist and the blacklists in academia and industry, not to mention the HUAC. Those things most certainly did harm people and ruin lives.

McCarthy must take the blame for the actions he himself helped set in motion.

Annie Lee Moss worked in the code room at the Pentagon. She was a member of the Communist Party. McCarthy's efforts got her out of the code room.

He put no one in prison. He ruined no lives. Members of the CPUSA were too weasely to stand up and say "I am a Communist," so they perjured themselves instead, and that was why some of them did time. Why they wouldn't admit it, I still don't understand.

HUAC was up and running long before Mc was ever a Senator. Hollywood producers created the blacklist. You wanna cry for them, enjoy.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Annie Lee Moss worked in the code room at the Pentagon. She was a member of the Communist Party. McCarthy's efforts got her out of the code room.

Was being the operative word. No one yet in this thread, and certainly not McCarthy himself, provided proof that she was a "card carrying Communist" at the time of her employment in the Army. In fact, the most likely scenario is that she was only ever loosely affiliated with, and only prior to her employment.

And PC herself agrees that McCarthy helped embolden and make possible many of the things that happened during this period. As such, he gets to take a share of the blame.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

BTW:

You see, once the dogs are set on you everything you have done since the beginning of time is suspect... I have never done anything that I consider wrong but I can't take the pressure upon my shoulders any more.

This was in a note written by Kaplan shortly before he ended up getting killed by stepping in front of a truck. Kaplan was about to be called before McCarthy's committee. McCarthy himself admitted he had no evidence of wrong doing by Kaplan.

It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.

 

[PoliticalChic]

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

BTW:

You see, once the dogs are set on you everything you have done since the beginning of time is suspect... I have never done anything that I consider wrong but I can't take the pressure upon my shoulders any more.

This was in a note written by Kaplan shortly before he ended up getting killed by stepping in front of a truck. Kaplan was about to be called before McCarthy's committee. McCarthy himself admitted he had no evidence of wrong doing by Kaplan.

It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.

Had you been informed on the topic, or even taken the time to read the thread, you would have learned that Kaplan was a friendly witness, on McCarthy's side of the VOA investigation.

There is no evidence that a single person committed suicide because of McCarthy.

Often, Raymond Kaplan is claimed to have committed suicide in fear of McCarthy, as a result of a note he left before leaping in front of a truck: “When the dogs are set upon you, everything you have done from the beginning of your life is suspect.” But, who are the ‘dogs’?

“One of McCarthy's first investigations concerned the Voice of America (VOA) and why one of its transmitters had been placed in such a way as to minimize its effectiveness in reaching the enslaved people behind the Iron Curtain.

An employee with the VOA — Raymond Kaplan — died when hit by a truck the day before he was set to testify in the probe.” McCarthy Part 4--Annie Lee Moss, VOA, and history insulted

“Kaplan was expected to be a friendly committee witness, eager to tell McCarthy of his frustration that some with whom he worked had placed a Voice of America transmitter in such a way as to prevent VOA from reaching the freedom-loving people behind the Iron Curtain, thus rendering it useless.” Coulter's Book and Senate Transcripts Prove Feds' Treason

Since Kaplan was opposed to the placement of the transmitters as useless, he was happy to testify. Kaplan was involved in a rancorous battle with VOA, not with McCarthy.


So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.

Get up and keep swingin'.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I find Senator McCarthy's illicit use of his seat in the United States Senate to name and vilify ordinary Americans with little, or scant, evidence to be extremely objectionable.

And you, of course, exemplify exactly the kind of thougtless liberal simp that the left counts on to follow blindly, to never question, or us the kind of disbelief of any right wing exposition.

As you have here.

Since you have presented no documentation to back up what passes for a point of view, your vote has been counted, and now you may return to the rest of the herd.

You asked a specific question and requested a specific answer. I gave one. You resort with an insult.

Whose the simpleton here?

First let me wipe away that tear.

That better?

Now then, back to the fray:
"... illicit use of his seat ..."

It would make you appear brighter if you restricted your posts to words that you can define.

Illicit:
1. Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.
2. Linguistics Improperly formed; ungrammatical.


The Senator was protecting the American people from the influence of paid and controlled Soviet agents, spies who reported to the Kremlin.

Therefore you are in extreme error in your statement.

Unless you are stating that he was ungrammatical in his speech...


"...I find Senator McCarthy's illicit use of his seat in the United States Senate to name and vilify ordinary Americans with little, or scant, evidence to be extremely objectionable."

I fear that you also don't understand the word 'question,' as that is a talking point not a question.

State exactly what he did that was in error, and name the individual that he harmed and in what way that individual was materially harmed: in other words, beyond hurt feeling, such as you evinced.

Let's do this right!

 

[Dr.Traveler]

So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.

Sure. People leave notes like this all the time right before they get hit by a truck after walking out in traffic. And the fact he was about to go before McCarthy's committee has absolutely nothing at all to do with it. Nothing at all.

I repeat:

It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.

I'm happy to leave this one to the folks reading this thread to decide. I'm familiar with this case enough to know that it was clear to those who Ray worked for that it was suicide, but that since it has become popular for Conservatives to trot out heresay evidence that Kaplan was actually excited about being badgered by McCarthy under oath.

 

[PoliticalChic]

From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:

"Among the Soviet operatives who had been in government jobs and named by McCarthy were T.A. Bisson, Mary Jane Keeney, Cedric Belfrage, Solomon Adler, Franz Neumann, Leonard Mins, Gustavo Duran, and William Remington (later killed with a bar of soap in prison by a patriotic inmate)." [Ann Coulter Treason, pp 59-60]

Quoting Coulter on this is laughable. She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy. Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda. ("killed by a patriotic inmate." ?)

For all McCarthy's bluster, were their any convictions? He abused his position to denounce ordinary Americans without sufficient evidence which resulted in tangible harm to them. By doing so, he de facto, bypassed the rule of law and this is why he was "condemned" by a Senate vote of 67 to 22.

If McCarthy was so integral to fighting commies, he would have been lauded and people would have been indicted and tried.

His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.

McCarthy didn't have a gig. Not an official one. As a lackluster Senator, he took it upon himself to create the climate that we now refer to as "McCarthyism". He was never appointed to the a specific investigative role, and he had no background or experience is such manners.

He was forced to name names, because it was time to call his bluff. That is what led to his fall from grace.

"...were their any convictions..."

I beg you, try, to the best of your ability, on tippy toes, to inform yourself on the topic before you post!

Prosecutor: a government official who conducts criminal prosecutions on behalf of the state


Senator:a member of the legislative body known as the senate . See Article I of the Constitution.

The SENATOR's goal was to show how lax the government was when it came to Communists.

Not prosecute. Not obtain convictions.

President Eisenhower directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF.

Educate yourself as to further steps taken by Eisenhower to protect the nation. From Time Magazine:

" Executive Order 10450, issued by the President on April 27, 1953, establishing broad new security standards for federal employment. Critics say that Ten-Four-Fifty results in a cold reign of terror among Government workers, that no man is safe from his neighbor's malice. Defenders say that Order 10450 is necessary to protect the U.S. from the infiltration of its Government by enemies.

EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets.

But the system does not—and cannot—adhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. “
Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME


Do you not understand "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security' ? Or are you a Democrat?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets.

But the system does not—and cannot—adhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. “
Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME

Isn't it ironic that McCarthy himself wouldn't have qualified for Federal employment. McCarthy was forced to settle a libel case against him that alleged he was a homosexual after realizing he'd have had to face questions under oath about his sexual proclivities, not to mention he died from complications from alcoholism.

It is also unfortunate, that as documented already, McCarthy did not limit himself to investigating security risks.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So, I guess this represents a total absolute and unmitigated loss for you.

Sure. People leave notes like this all the time right before they get hit by a truck after walking out in traffic. And the fact he was about to go before McCarthy's committee has absolutely nothing at all to do with it. Nothing at all.

I repeat:

It has become fashionable among Conservatives that are looking to sell books to claim that Kaplan "accidently" stepped in front of a truck after writing this, or that he was murdered because of what he knew.

I'm happy to leave this one to the folks reading this thread to decide. I'm familiar with this case enough to know that it was clear to those who Ray worked for that it was suicide, but that since it has become popular for Conservatives to trot out heresay evidence that Kaplan was actually excited about being badgered by McCarthy under oath.

Did you try to miss the point?

You must have stopped reading the post before this:
"“Kaplan was expected to be a friendly committee witness, eager to tell McCarthy of his frustration that some with whom he worked had placed a Voice of America transmitter in such a way as to prevent VOA from reaching the freedom-loving people behind the Iron Curtain, thus rendering it useless.”


McCarthy knew that Communist influence in the government was aimed at crippling any foreign policy initiative that worked to the Soviets' detriment.

Such as Lattimore's advice that we should not back Chang Kai Shek, thus allowing Mao to murder 70 million Chinese. In this case, Soviet sympathizers in the VOA wanted to place transmitters in areas that would prevent the mesages of freedom from reaching into Eastern Europe.

Still with me?

Kaplan was fighting with the powers at VOA who were instrumental in placing the transmitters.

He was siding with McCarthy, not in fear of McCarthy.


"Ritchie e-mailed me in 2003 when I reported in NewsMax his failure to give equal billing to testimony that Kaplan was expected to be a friendly witness before McCarthy's panel, eager to tell the senator of his frustration that some with whom he worked had blundered in placement of the transmitter."
Blacklisted by History: McCarthy Part 4, Thursday, November 15, 2007, By Wes Vernon


Get it now?

"...it was clear to those who Ray worked for that it was suicide,..." But not clear as to who was the threat in Kaplan's life.


Wise up.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Quoting Coulter on this is laughable. She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy. Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda. ("killed by a patriotic inmate." ?)

Any serious reading of Coulter reveals that This book has a deeper rooting in reality than her entire body of work.

 

[PoliticalChic]

EXECUTIVE Order 10450 requires that the hiring and continued employment of federal workers must, in the judgment of department and agency heads, be "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security. The order recognizes that an employee may be loyal, yet still be a security risk. The homosexual may be easy prey to blackmail. The person with relatives behind the Iron Curtain may be exposed to overwhelming pressures. The alcoholic may unintentionally blab secrets.

But the system does not—and cannot—adhere strictly to judicial principles, with the "defendant" presumed innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. For guilt in the legal sense is not involved. The idea is not to wait until the drunken employee gives away an important secret; it is to get rid of him beforehand. “
Read more: National Affairs: THE MEANING OF SECURITY - TIME

Isn't it ironic that McCarthy himself wouldn't have qualified for Federal employment. McCarthy was forced to settle a libel case against him that alleged he was a homosexual after realizing he'd have had to face questions under oath about his sexual proclivities, not to mention he died from complications from alcoholism.

It is also unfortunate, that as documented already, McCarthy did not limit himself to investigating security risks.

What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

He was siding with McCarthy, not in fear of McCarthy.

Sure he was. That was why he left a note saying this:

You see, once the dogs are set on you everything you have done since the beginning of time is suspect... I have never done anything that I consider wrong but I can't take the pressure upon my shoulders any more.

...and ended up stepping in front of a truck right before he could go and face McCarthy and his badgering under oath.

As I said, I am more than willing to let Ray Kaplan speak for himself here. Let the folks reading the thread decide why a "willing" witness for McCarthy would leave a note like that.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.

No issue with it here. McCarthy is free to do as he likes.

I just find it ironic how often Republicans that persecute homosexuals turn out to have a few skeletons in their closet. Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Quoting Coulter on this is laughable. She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy. Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda. ("killed by a patriotic inmate." ?)

Any serious reading of Coulter reveals that This book has a deeper rooting in reality than her entire body of work.

Just curious, which of Ms. Coulter's best sellers have you read?

Or do you take the MSNBC approach to knowledge?

 

[PoliticalChic]

What is ironic is that "liberals" who are so concerned with the rights of homosexuals, use the term as some kind of insult agaist folks like McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover.

No issue with it here. McCarthy is free to do as he likes.

I just find it ironic how often Republicans that persecute homosexuals turn out to have a few skeletons in their closet. Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme.

" Projection and self loathing seem to be a common theme."

Psychobabble.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Quoting Coulter on this is laughable. She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy. Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda. ("killed by a patriotic inmate." ?)

Any serious reading of Coulter reveals that This book has a deeper rooting in reality than her entire body of work.

Well, DC does stand for 'Detective Comics' after all.

Had McCarthy contented himself with investigating and removing threats to US intelligence and military security from government agencies involved in same, then that would have been one thing. A proper course of action for a US senator. However by attempting to use the investigations to further his political career he allowed a hydra to emerge which could have had disastrous consequences. His methods did spawn a period of hysteria and the backlash from his actions certainly produced a surge of relativisism which has led to allowing Islamic worshippers into the US military at a time when we are actively fighting Islamic terrorists.

In short, while we do need ot be wary of enemy agents infiltrating our government, intelligence agencies, and military, Joseph McCarthy went about it in a reprehensible manner; similar to the tactics of PC he follwed the teachings of Joseph Goebbels in propogating a Big Lie.

 

[Samson]

"...First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time..."

Please document or retract.

For example NYU researcher, Jeff Kisseloff, in “The Alger Hiss Story (The Alger Hiss Story) claims to have found some 101 errors in the Ann Coulter book “Treason,” with respect to Hiss. He notes that Coulter mentions two dozen spies at one point, but the corresponding documents only list thirteen. I don’t feel that such an error, while it might be true.

Coulter's Error = about 50%

Babbling Idiots document 50% errors.

Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for the balance.

Talk about a babbling idiot...

The claim is made by an anti-Coulter reviewer about one of thousands of statements my Ms. Coulter.

Since you and the other opponents were too inept to come up with legitimate criticism of some of my sources, I, as an intellectual exercise, provided several critiques myself. Not only could you not find such on your own, but you have misused both the source and mathematics is a less-than-interesting display of sophistry.


And your cowardly attempt to ignore a previous post, specifically including these:

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

has not gone unnoticed.


The obvious reason is that, unable to counter these statement, any disapproval of Senator McCarthy must fall apart as baseless.

Baseless.


So, without any valid criticism of the Senator, and judging by the Eisenhower administration and numerous Democrat and liberal anti-Communists who followed him, credit must be given to this great American hero.

Your definition of Great American Hero:

A US Senator that didn't ruin anyone's life.

Well, I suppose if you cannot defend him, you may as well lower your standards.

Next up: Senator Edward Kennedy, a Great American Hero!!!

PoliticalChick, you leave us with only one question:

Whether to laugh or cry?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Coulter's Error = about 50%

Babbling Idiots document 50% errors.

Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for the balance.

Talk about a babbling idiot...

The claim is made by an anti-Coulter reviewer about one of thousands of statements my Ms. Coulter.

Since you and the other opponents were too inept to come up with legitimate criticism of some of my sources, I, as an intellectual exercise, provided several critiques myself. Not only could you not find such on your own, but you have misused both the source and mathematics is a less-than-interesting display of sophistry.


And your cowardly attempt to ignore a previous post, specifically including these:

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

has not gone unnoticed.


The obvious reason is that, unable to counter these statement, any disapproval of Senator McCarthy must fall apart as baseless.

Baseless.


So, without any valid criticism of the Senator, and judging by the Eisenhower administration and numerous Democrat and liberal anti-Communists who followed him, credit must be given to this great American hero.

Your definition of Great American Hero:

A US Senator that didn't ruin anyone's life.

Well, I suppose if you cannot defend him, you may as well lower your standards.

Next up: Senator Edward Kennedy, a Great American Hero!!!

PoliticalChick, you leave us with only one question:

Whether to laugh or cry?

"...you leave us with only one question..."

Only three kinds of folks can use 'we' when referring to himself:
1. Royalty

2. Editors of newspapers

3. Someone with a tapeworm


Best wishes for an improvement in your health.