The single biggest problem with Obamacare.

[Skynet]

back when it was written there wasnt very much interstate commerce,

actually there was tons and tons of interstate and international commerce. The Boston Tea Party was about international trade, for example.

As I said the Commerce Clause grew out of problems under the Articles of Confederation wherein most states had tarriffs against other states. THe Founders were Republicans for free trade.

actually most of the founding fathers were federalists.

and you are correct in the commerce clause grew out of the Articles, as each state had different agreements with other states, this was to set a single governing body to control and regulate that.

im just curious, how have you shown that health care is not interstate commerce? because that seems to me that the major issue here and whether it falls under the commerce clause. which i have shown it does.

 

[Brutus]

back when it was written there wasnt very much interstate commerce,

actually there was tons and tons of interstate and international commerce. The Boston Tea Party was about international trade, for example.

As I said the Commerce Clause grew out of problems under the Articles of Confederation wherein most states had tarriffs against other states. THe Founders were Republicans for free trade. A treasonous liberal reads the Clause any way he wants so it has no meaning.

actually most of the founding fathers were federalists.

far more importantly, Federalists who believed in free trade

and you are correct in the commerce clause grew out of the Articles, as each state had different agreements with other states, this was to set a single governing body to control and regulate that.

im just curious, how have you shown that health care is not interstate commerce?

it is interstate commerce but that does not mean it is subject to liberal communist regulation. THe commerce clause was designed to promote free trade , not liberal communism.

because that seems to me that the major issue here and whether it falls under the commerce clause. which i have shown it does.

as I said the liberal communists found that one person growing pot for personal use affects interstate commerce by decreasing demand for interstate commercial pot and so is subject to regulation under the Commerce Clause. To a treasonous liberal everything falls under the commerce clause so it means exactly what they want, not what the founders intended.

 

[Yoda]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

Yes, but tell us how you really feel about it.

That's the only problem with it? How about the fact that the American government only knows how to screw everything up in the first place?

 

[Chris]

If the Supreme Court rules against the individual mandate, the only option left will be the public option.

Which would be great.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

Fact, Pittsburg has more cat scanners than all of Canada. We do 200% more knee replacements than Europe! We have 60% better breast cancer survival here than England. We hold 80% of all recent medical patents.

However, it is very important to understand that our system is very expensive for 4 reasons:

1) we have a liberal welfare population that is very sickly

2) technologicially we are able to provide far more extensive care than is available in other countries

3) we are richer and so can afford more health care than in other countries

4) our system is in some ways more socialistic than Europe in that we have several inefficient forms of socialism, e.g., Medicaid, Medicare, VA, Schip, insurance regulation to make competition illegal, Medicare Advantage, Medicare supplements, prescription drug bill,(part D) etc.


The solution to our health care problems is capitalism, but since the liberals lack the IQ to understand capitalism we can't be sure what will happen.

Fact

Capitalism caused the Great Depression.

Fact

Capitalism caused the crash of 2008.

Fact

The French have the best healthcare system in the world and they live two years longer on average than we do. If you studied their system you would learn a lot.

 

[Chris]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

I understand free enterprise in healthcare very well.

When my mother was dying of a stroke, the for profit hospital she was in dumped her into another hospital an hour away, because her supplemental insurance ran out.

 

[Chris]

France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia. France's infant death rate is 3.9 per 1,000 live births, compared with 7 in the U.S., and average life expectancy is 79.4 years, two years more than in the U.S. The country has far more hospital beds and doctors per capita than America, and far lower rates of death from diabetes and heart disease. The difference in deaths from respiratory disease, an often preventable form of mortality, is particularly striking: 31.2 per 100,000 people in France, vs. 61.5 per 100,000 in the U.S.

That's not to say the French have solved all health-care riddles. Like every other nation, France is wrestling with runaway health-care inflation. That has led to some hefty tax hikes, and France is now considering U.S.-style health-maintenance organization tactics to rein in costs. Still, some 65% of French citizens express satisfaction with their system, compared with 40% of U.S. residents. And France spends just 10.7% of its gross domestic product on health care, while the U.S. lays out 16%, more than any other nation.

To grasp how the French system works, think about Medicare for the elderly in the U.S., then expand that to encompass the entire population. French medicine is based on a widely held value that the healthy should pay for care of the sick. Everyone has access to the same basic coverage through national insurance funds, to which every employer and employee contributes. The government picks up the tab for the unemployed who cannot gain coverage through a family member.

The French Lesson In Health Care

 

[Toronado3800]

Aschroft???????????? What????????????



what?????????




no idea what do you mean???????

Brutus, did I use cell phone slang or something confusing? Or is the "what" exclamation a statement indicating you disagree?

please try to make your point using good English. Why not read what you write before posting?

You REALLY do not understand??? I am sorry.

Last decade John Ashcroft decided the good people of Oregon could not determine what end of life medical care they received.

Under some strange religous banner about your body being a gift from god Republicans supported the power of the Federal government over this seemingly internal state matter.

So by using Ashcroft to impose their views on Oregon Republicans lost a good amount of traction on the whole state's rights in healthcare matters issue.

Follow so far?

 

[Brutus]

So by using Ashcroft to impose their views on Oregon Republicans lost a good amount of traction on the whole state's rights in healthcare matters issue.

Follow so far?

I follow the healthcare debate very very closely and see no evidence whatsoever that Republicans lost traction because of Ashcroft on Oregon. Gee I wonder why you forgot to present your evidence?

 

[Brutus]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

I understand free enterprise in healthcare very well.

When my mother was dying of a stroke, the for profit hospital she was in dumped her into another hospital an hour away, because her supplemental insurance ran out.

as a liberal you lack the IQ to understand that with Medicaid Medicare, VA, Schip, insurance regulation, etc etc there is no free enterprise in health care.

 

[Brutus]

In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th,

So sorry but the WHO ranking are pretty much meaningless

1) they are based in large part on financial fairness; this means that when compiled by a socialist organization( UN) a country with market incentives(USA) will be marketed down heavily, automatically!

2) Also, they don't take into account that Americans are fat; so die sooner because of what they eat not because of the health care they get

3) also, infant mortality is higher here because of our particular liberal welfare drug culture, not because of our health care system

4) the WHO ranking don't take into account that drug companies give away drugs at reduced welfare prices to the top 37 countries because they are too poor to pay their fair share! And, they don't take into account that the USA had 80% of recent medical patents and does almost all medical research!. This means that without the USA the other countries would have no health care system at all, to speak of!!

5) lastly , the WHO ranking don't acknowledge that the inefficiency in our system is in large part due to several conflicting, inefficient, overlapping, socialist, liberal bureaucracies: Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Schip!


6) the who ranking don't take into account that we do 55% more knee implants or that breast and prostate cancer survival here is about 60% higher than in socialist Europe.

7) they don't take into account that Pittsburg has more cat scanners than all of Canada.

The solution is not to adopt socialism, which we already have in large part, but to adopt capitalism, which we don't have at all, but which we know works for obvious reasons, which is of course why Red China just switched to it to instantly end centuries of liberal mass starvation!.

 

[Toronado3800]

So by using Ashcroft to impose their views on Oregon Republicans lost a good amount of traction on the whole state's rights in healthcare matters issue.

Follow so far?

I follow the healthcare debate very very closely and see no evidence whatsoever that Republicans lost traction because of Ashcroft on Oregon. Gee I wonder why you forgot to present your evidence?

Oh. So you disagree with Ashcroft on that whole state's rights issue

​

?

 

[Brutus]

So by using Ashcroft to impose their views on Oregon Republicans lost a good amount of traction on the whole state's rights in healthcare matters issue.

Follow so far?

I follow the healthcare debate very very closely and see no evidence whatsoever that Republicans lost traction because of Ashcroft on Oregon. Gee I wonder why you forgot to present your evidence?

Oh. So you disagree with Ashcroft on that whole state's rights issue

​

?

you must present the evidence or admit you can't before you are allowed to change the subject. Sorry!!

 

[Toronado3800]

I follow the healthcare debate very very closely and see no evidence whatsoever that Republicans lost traction because of Ashcroft on Oregon. Gee I wonder why you forgot to present your evidence?

Oh. So you disagree with Ashcroft on that whole state's rights issue

​

?

you must present the evidence or admit you can't before you are allowed to change the subject. Sorry!!

There is not a study on it Brutus. Just folks who support Ashcroft were against state's rights in that case which was against their beliefs. Think them Republicans want to limit federal power and let folks in Oregon to get the medical care the good ppl of Oregon voted for?

 

[Brutus]

Oh. So you disagree with Ashcroft on that whole state's rights issue

​

?

you must present the evidence or admit you can't before you are allowed to change the subject. Sorry

There is not a study on it Brutus.

do you mean there is not evidence to support what you said??

 

[Toronado3800]

actions. Defenders of the Oregon law, including some people who personally oppose legalized physician-assisted suicide, have accused Ashcroft and the Bush Administration of hypocrisy. All five of Oregon’s House members have condemned Ashcroft’s action against the state. Ashcroft seems to support states’ rights only when the states are exercising their rights in a manner that pleases him and the president. exercising their rights in a manner that pleases him and the president. Ashcroft insists that he is a strong advocate for states’ rights but feels that.....
To Hang On or Let Go | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson

There. Respected ppl picking on a hypocrit. Think they will listen as loudly when Ashcroft or his party yells "states rights!"

Or think Ashcroft and his party members wanna give up their federal power over the right to die so badly?

 

[Brutus]

actions. Defenders of the Oregon law, including some people who personally oppose legalized physician-assisted suicide, have accused Ashcroft and the Bush Administration of hypocrisy. All five of Oregon’s House members have condemned Ashcroft’s action against the state. Ashcroft seems to support states’ rights only when the states are exercising their rights in a manner that pleases him and the president. exercising their rights in a manner that pleases him and the president. Ashcroft insists that he is a strong advocate for states’ rights but feels that.....
To Hang On or Let Go | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson

There. Respected ppl picking on a hypocrit. Think they will listen as loudly when Ashcroft or his party yells "states rights!"

Or think Ashcroft and his party members wanna give up their federal power over the right to die so badly?

this is evidence that the Republican position on states rights as enumerated by the Constitution and established by Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson is compromised or has " lost traction."?

 

[Toronado3800]

Yup. A reminder to you Republicans have abandoned it when it does not suit them. Think folks in Oregon have forgotten?

Imagine this, you've voted on a single issue like abortion for thirty years and have had little done. Then after a few decades you wisen up that you are being played and start voting on world views on the whole.

Sorta thing that is difficult to poll but you think it does not happen?

 

[Brutus]

Yup. A reminder to you Republicans have abandoned it when it does not suit them. Think folks in Oregon have forgotten?

Imagine this, you've voted on a single issue like abortion for thirty years and have had little done. Then after a few decades you wisen up that you are being played and start voting on world views on the whole.

Sorta thing that is difficult to poll but you think it does not happen?

actually to Jefferson and Henry, State's Rights was never an absolute concept.

 

[Toronado3800]

Quote: Originally Posted by Toronado3800 General welfare kicks in as well as the interstate part already mentioned.Suppose that is the same ground which gave Reagan the right to declare war on Grenada or Bush Panama. You just can not have a strict reading when you want and a loose reading when it disagrees with you.

This is along the same lines of liberally reading the constitution when it suits you. In this case it is two examples of Republican President's "right" to declare war.

Or time to start making excuses that placing combat units who are firing weapons in foreign countries is not an act of war.

 

[Brutus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Toronado3800 General welfare kicks in as well as the interstate part already mentioned.Suppose that is the same ground which gave Reagan the right to declare war on Grenada or Bush Panama. You just can not have a strict reading when you want and a loose reading when it disagrees with you.

This is along the same lines of liberally reading the constitution when it suits you. In this case it is two examples of Republican President's "right" to declare war.

Or time to start making excuses that placing combat units who are firing weapons in foreign countries is not an act of war.

if you have an objection to conservatism why not say what exactly it is and why you object.