The Rise of Unions

[Moonglow]

Unions are necessary to allow the worker the ability to negotiate their labor for a happier society.

 

[Polishprince]

Unions are necessary to allow the worker the ability to negotiate their labor for a happier society.

Do you really think that the 6% of US Private Sector workers paying union dues are happier for doing so?

I didn't feel any happier at all when I was in the union- the United Food and Commercial Workers, and in fact I quit that job in fairly quick order in favor of taking a Scab position.

 

[sealybobo]

What did the actual people who do work get?

Not enough. They are striking. Have you ever been in an assisted living place? They are clearly under staffed and under paid. If those big wigs need to take a pay cut and if we need to pay a couple dollars more, so be it.

And we have tons of women at the border looking for work. And they will take minimum wage. They could assist these workers. We need them. But they can't lower the workers wages. And they won't because they are unionized. Which means they have a seat at the table.

Last night my loser cousin was arguing with someone on Facebook. He was attacking the unions. He doesn't make nearly what they make. He has no savings. He claims he's skilled workers and UAW workers are not. He's so dumb. He doesn't realize he's against workers making more. Which would eventually raise his wages too. He doesn't get it.

 

[sealybobo]

Unions are necessary to allow the worker the ability to negotiate their labor for a happier society.

This year has proven Republicans montra is wrong. "unions have outlived their usefulness. maybe at one point in history they were necessary but they aren't anymore"

I wonder who told them that? What right wing radio show told them that? Or was it Rush? Fox? Their employer?

I love when Republicans try to say they are the party of labor and Democrats are the party for the rich. This proves that's a fucking lie.

 

[Moonglow]

Do you really think that the 6% of US Private Sector workers paying union dues are happier for doing so?

I didn't feel any happier at all when I was in the union- the United Food and Commercial Workers, and in fact I quit that job in fairly quick order in favor of taking a Scab position.

I got screwed out of a week's vacation from a change of ownership because we had no collective bargaining of the transaction to protect our interest of our labor.

 

[Polishprince]

Not enough. They are striking. Have you ever been in an assisted living place? They are clearly under staffed and under paid. If those big wigs need to take a pay cut and if we need to pay a couple dollars more, so be it.

And we have tons of women at the border looking for work. And they will take minimum wage. They could assist these workers. We need them. But they can't lower the workers wages. And they won't because they are unionized. Which means they have a seat at the table.

Last night my loser cousin was arguing with someone on Facebook. He was attacking the unions. He doesn't make nearly what they make. He has no savings. He claims he's skilled workers and UAW workers are not. He's so dumb. He doesn't realize he's against workers making more. Which would eventually raise his wages too. He doesn't get it.

The "big wigs" aren't going to take a pay cut. In fact they will get a big raise if prices go up so they can keep up with those in other industries. "Big wigs" have unique talents, and they can go someplace else if they aren't appreciated.

As far as UAW auto workers, they are already paid a comparable amount in comparison to Non-Union auto workers for Honda, Toyota and Kia in this country. I don't see where they are somehow entitled to a big raise, if they are already paid market rate. If a Ford worker wants to work for Toyota, he can apply but if hired, he ain't going to make any more.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you really think that the 6% of US Private Sector workers paying union dues are happier for doing so?

I didn't feel any happier at all when I was in the union- the United Food and Commercial Workers, and in fact I quit that job in fairly quick order in favor of taking a Scab position.

If they quit their job and went to work for you they'd make less. Even without the union dues. And what about the benefits and job security those dues give them? They don't realize before 5 years at your company they'll get fired. The average life expectency of a non union job is 5 years. Union members have a job till they retire.

Are you management or jealous?

 

[sealybobo]

The "big wigs" aren't going to take a pay cut. In fact they will get a big raise if prices go up so they can keep up with those in other industries. "Big wigs" have unique talents, and they can go someplace else if they aren't appreciated.

As far as UAW auto workers, they are already paid a comparable amount in comparison to Non-Union auto workers for Honda, Toyota and Kia in this country. I don't see where they are somehow entitled to a big raise, if they are already paid market rate. If a Ford worker wants to work for Toyota, he can apply but if hired, he ain't going to make any more.

When they get a raise, Honda and Toyota employees soon after will get raises.

Instead of seeing someone who has it better than you and saying "why do they get that?" why not say, "why don't I get that?" Instead of taking it away from them how about you fight to get what they got?
I'm sure Honda and Toyota employees would unionize if the companies didn't threaten them and spend a lot of money to make sure they don't.

 

[Polishprince]

If they quit their job and went to work for you they'd make less. Even without the union dues. And what about the benefits and job security those dues give them? They don't realize before 5 years at your company they'll get fired. The average life expectency of a non union job is 5 years. Union members have a job till they retire.

Are you management or jealous?

I'm neither.

I've lived life, and HAD a union job working in a grocery store and the UFCW.

My union-negotiated salary was the princely sum of $3.50 an hour, 15 cents more than the federal minimum at that time.

I was better off and made more when I quit after 2 months and starting working for a scab outfit.

I know about unions, I have no problem with union business agents and organizers at all. But I know they aren't as tremendous as you are inferring.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm neither.

I've lived life, and HAD a union job working in a grocery store and the UFCW.

My union-negotiated salary was the princely sum of $3.50 an hour, 15 cents more than the federal minimum at that time.

I was better off and made more when I quit after 2 months and starting working for a scab outfit.

I know about unions, I have no problem with union business agents and organizers at all. But I know they aren't as tremendous as you are inferring.

Yes I worked for a fake ass union too. It was a scam. But your union and my union are nothing like the UAW or Healthcare or teachers unions. They get shit done for their members. Not like the company you worked for. Or UPS. Didn't they strike too this year and get what they wanted? Relax dude. They will bring your wages up too.

Class warfare exists. This year workers are fighting back after losing for decades.

 

[initforme]

Dutifully showing up for work, being productive, never asking for a raise will get one nowhere in today's work world. One has to advocate constantly or they get nowhere. Merit means little and is not recognized by management.

 

[presonorek]

If you have people who are higher paid, they're more likely to spend money, when they spend money you need people to sell them the stuff, this creates jobs, then you need people to create the stuff they are buying, people to get the resources, people to ship the goods etc etc. I guess nobody did logical thinking

I’m confused. They will be hiring people in other countries for cheaper wages. Why would that stimulate our economy?

 

[presonorek]

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

If we go back to subsistence farming, we see people who have no spare anything. What they had that was spare usually went to the lord who lived it large. Nothing changed for a long time.

Then we industrialized.

This is industrialization where machinery was taking the jobs of the people. You had more modern farming technology. But we realized that we didn't need people farming.

List of countries by employment in agriculture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The US has 1.7% of workers in farming. Technology didn't destroy their jobs, it created other jobs AND made people wealthier.

With this wealth people bought stuff, we know this, we can track the rise of consumerism from the ability of people to get away from farming.

Rich people do save money, to a certain degree. But we're not talking about rich people.

The example given was 2,500 people at $52,000 a year or 8,620 workers at $15,080 a year.

A person with $52,000 a year in their pocket might save some of this money. But they're going to spend a lot of this, because it isn't that much. They'll buy a car, they'll buy a home, they'll buy gadgets and things. They might save a few thousand.

The people who have $15,000 will probably spend all their money, but on what? On food, on basic essentials.

Now, you can't assume that only hiring the 2,500 will mean the others won't get jobs. Most will. Because a company doesn't work in isolation. You create an environment of people with jobs and spending.

We know this exists because we have, unfortunately, boom and bust. We see people spending in the boom years and the economy grows and grows. Why? We see people stopping spending and the economy goes into freefall. Why?

Oh they will hire the workers they need. Only they won’t hire Americans.

 

[presonorek]

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

If we go back to subsistence farming, we see people who have no spare anything. What they had that was spare usually went to the lord who lived it large. Nothing changed for a long time.

Then we industrialized.

This is industrialization where machinery was taking the jobs of the people. You had more modern farming technology. But we realized that we didn't need people farming.

List of countries by employment in agriculture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The US has 1.7% of workers in farming. Technology didn't destroy their jobs, it created other jobs AND made people wealthier.

With this wealth people bought stuff, we know this, we can track the rise of consumerism from the ability of people to get away from farming.

Rich people do save money, to a certain degree. But we're not talking about rich people.

The example given was 2,500 people at $52,000 a year or 8,620 workers at $15,080 a year.

A person with $52,000 a year in their pocket might save some of this money. But they're going to spend a lot of this, because it isn't that much. They'll buy a car, they'll buy a home, they'll buy gadgets and things. They might save a few thousand.

The people who have $15,000 will probably spend all their money, but on what? On food, on basic essentials.

Now, you can't assume that only hiring the 2,500 will mean the others won't get jobs. Most will. Because a company doesn't work in isolation. You create an environment of people with jobs and spending.

We know this exists because we have, unfortunately, boom and bust. We see people spending in the boom years and the economy grows and grows. Why? We see people stopping spending and the economy goes into freefall. Why?

If you were a disgusting filthy horrible rotten terrible good for nothing greedy bastard, would you want to fire 8,000 Americans and replace them with 8,000 Chinese workers to pocket an extra $295,360,000 per year or do you just want to take a loss on that opportunity?

It would be an easy decision for me. I’d be hiring a whole goddamn bunch of Chinese workers and buy myself the country of Romania or something like that. I don’t think anybody would be so stupid that they would waste almost $300 million. Nobody is that dumb. They are gonna fire tons of Americans if they cost too much. It happened hard core in the 90s. Are you too young to remember? Factories were closing by the hundreds and moving operation overseas because Americans were morons and wanted $50,000 per year. Chinese workers only wanted $3,000 per year. The math is there. It doesn’t take a calculus major to understand what happened in the 90s. We are a global economy now. We have to use brains not emotions and cute campaign slogans. A pro union guy can get elected to office but it does nothing for the American people.

 

[presonorek]

why not....americans have to eat don they

The purpose of a corporation is to make a profit. Feeding people is done by individuals and non profits. CEO’s answer to the shareholders only. Unless all the shareholders demand the company feed people then feeding people isn’t on the radar at all.

 

[presonorek]

why not....americans have to eat don they

Fire an American making $50,000; hire a Chinese worker for $3,000; then use the $47,000 in savings to feed lots of unemployed Americans. You might be on to something. Maybe companies should feed unemployed Americans by firing Americans. If you fire 100,000,000 Americans and replace them with Chinese workers we would have an additional $4,700,000,000,000.00 to feed the entire American population. I just don’t know if the companies would be willing to do that with their $4.7 trillion of savings. Farmers would absolutely love this strategy. Unemployed people eat a lot more than working people because they get bored. Let’s fire all Americans. I love free food.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I’m confused. They will be hiring people in other countries for cheaper wages. Why would that stimulate our economy?

Depends. If you can make something cheaper, then you sell it to people in the US for cheaper, Americans get more stuff for the same money.

They can then spend more.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you were a disgusting filthy horrible rotten terrible good for nothing greedy bastard, would you want to fire 8,000 Americans and replace them with 8,000 Chinese workers to pocket an extra $295,360,000 per year or do you just want to take a loss on that opportunity?

It would be an easy decision for me. I’d be hiring a whole goddamn bunch of Chinese workers and buy myself the country of Romania or something like that. I don’t think anybody would be so stupid that they would waste almost $300 million. Nobody is that dumb. They are gonna fire tons of Americans if they cost too much. It happened hard core in the 90s. Are you too young to remember? Factories were closing by the hundreds and moving operation overseas because Americans were morons and wanted $50,000 per year. Chinese workers only wanted $3,000 per year. The math is there. It doesn’t take a calculus major to understand what happened in the 90s. We are a global economy now. We have to use brains not emotions and cute campaign slogans. A pro union guy can get elected to office but it does nothing for the American people.

Thing is, different countries have different levels of pay.

The US as a rich country needs to have better educated workers to get the better paid jobs. Simple as.

Problem is the US doesn't go for that, it goes for dumbing down everything so a select few can get rich and everyone else isn't. Germany on the other hand is a better country because people are better educated and get better jobs.

Germany has income inequality of 6.9 for 10% and 5.1 for 20% based on the UN's estimates. 10% is the ratio between the top 10% and bottom 10%

On the Gini index Germany has 29.7 with 0 being totally equal and 100 not at all.

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The US on the other hand has 18.5 for 10% and 5.4 for 20%, and on the Gini index it's at 39.4

So Germany is far more equal, especially for the difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10% because they're not run by the rich for the rich. They have Proportional Representation which puts THE PEOPLE in control of their country.

 

[initforme]

If you were a disgusting filthy horrible rotten terrible good for nothing greedy bastard, would you want to fire 8,000 Americans and replace them with 8,000 Chinese workers to pocket an extra $295,360,000 per year or do you just want to take a loss on that opportunity?

It would be an easy decision for me. I’d be hiring a whole goddamn bunch of Chinese workers and buy myself the country of Romania or something like that. I don’t think anybody would be so stupid that they would waste almost $300 million. Nobody is that dumb. They are gonna fire tons of Americans if they cost too much. It happened hard core in the 90s. Are you too young to remember? Factories were closing by the hundreds and moving operation overseas because Americans were morons and wanted $50,000 per year. Chinese workers only wanted $3,000 per year. The math is there. It doesn’t take a calculus major to understand what happened in the 90s. We are a global economy now. We have to use brains not emotions and cute campaign slogans. A pro union guy can get elected to office but it does nothing for the American people.

American workers earning the same as Chinese workers does nothing for Americans either so what's the solution

 

[presonorek]

American workers earning the same as Chinese workers does nothing for Americans either so what's the solution

There is no problem for you and me. The boards of these companies will make these decisions. We have to deal with reality just like the rest of us. Don’t get off your couch just yet. There is nothing for you to do.