Skylar
Diamond Member
- Jul 5, 2014
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So the founders got it wrong.....but you got it right?
You said so yourself, that "the founders killed gays, but Christians today don't." Or, "I'm right, the Founders are wrong." So yes, they did get it wrong.
The founders were hardly unique. The overwhelming majority of the history of the Christian faith did the same thing. So they ALL got it wrong....but you got it right?
That seems rather...improbable.
And what of yourself? Do you believe you're correct also? We got it right by learning not summarily execute gays for being gay. Yes, I did get it right. If God makes his will clear, in stated text, then the issue for me is not debatable. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Oh, I have personal opinions. But I don't assume that my personal opinions are universal, absolute truth defined by God himself. They're just my opinions.
I admit that I am a little too absolute with my interpretation of the Bible, but there are things in the Bible that don't need to be interpreted. It's views, God's view, that marriage is between a man and a woman is one of these things. Not negotiable.
And yet it is negotiable. That you believe otherwise doesn't change the fact that the negotiations that you insist can't happen, do. Just like your insistence that your interpretations define absolute truth doesn't change the fact that someone else believes otherwise. And they are using the same process of faith, interpretation and prioritization that you are.
You simply declaring that only you are right and all others who disagree with you are wrong isn't an argument. Its circular reasoning. As your conclusion and your evidence are the same thing.
You merely assume that you're right. So do most religious folks, using the same processes you are. And by your own argument, that process produces incorrect results with almost perfect consistency. Why then would you expect us to accept that out of all the religions on all the world, all the interpretations that are or ever could be....
.....that you alone got it right?
At best, that's highly improbable. At worst, its self delusion.
What is the implication here? That we mold ourselves to be as acceptable as other religions are to gay marriage? To make ourselves more "acceptable" to others and not to God?
The implication being that your conception of god isn't necessarily correct. Most religions are mutually exclusive. If its Jesus, then it isn't Zeus and the Pantheon of Greek gods. So if you're right, that means that all the other faithful, across time and culture, are and were self deluded. Convincing themselves as completely as you're convinced, that their conception of god was correct. And being wrong.
Using the logic of faith, the process of faith produces almost perfect failure. As virtually every conception of god would be wrong, despite using the same processes that you're using now.
And that assumes that someone has gotten it right. Its entirely possible, even probable, that you all got it wrong. Leaving us with 3 likely conclusions:
1) That the will of god is unknowable.
2) That the will of god is knowable, but no one has managed it.
3) That the will of god is knowable, but only one faith has managed to do so correctly.
In 2 out of the 3 scenarios, you're dead wrong. In the third, you're almost certainly wrong. And in every scenario, the process of faith that you are using either certainly or almost certainly leads to self delusion and fallacious conclusions.
Meaning that your conception of god is probably wrong.
You are citing Leviticus 20, or part of the Mosaic Laws. Some of the old laws in the Old Testament were only meant to be temporary, others permanent. The 613 Mosaic Laws consisted of the ceremonial, the civil, and the moral law.
The ceremonial law applied only to the worship practices of the Israelites. Jesus rendered those ceremonial laws unnecessary by coming to fulfill them. He didn't abolish them, he made them unnecessary. The principles behind the ceremonial law are still applicable to us today, that is, the principles of worshiping and serving a holy God.
So why did Christians for the majority of the history of your faith put gays to death? The modern incarnation of Christianity that didn't is barely much older than the Ipod.
At best, you're demonstrating how utterly simple and probable it is that a Christian would misinterpret their faith and kill people in violation of God's will. At worst, how any commandment, no matter how clear, can be utterly ignored by anyone who wants to interpret around it.
And recognizing how simple it is to misinterpret god's will with centuries of examples of exactly that......why do you conclude that you're somehow immune to this probable outcome when so many Christians before you weren't?
And again, that's staying within the Christian faith. Maybe the Shintoists actually got it right and you're among the self deluded masses.