The Quandary Christians Put Gays In

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Not a religious discussion, a discussion on cultural perspectives.

I do mix it up in our discussions about gay culture and to me it's largely sport, but there's another part of me that attempts to see these social issues through the eyes of gay people. Two of the closest friends of my family happen to be gay, a woman I've known since I was in Junior High who was a teacher of mine and her partner. They are getting married this month and we will be enthusiastic attenders. My trust in them is implicit to the point they often babysit our 4 kids and are called Aunt by them. Yes they are that close.

So their up and coming wedding has gotten me thinking about the issue of gay marriage in the Christian church. They are Christians and church goers, attending a Reconciling congregation, the kind more accepting of gays and gay marriage.

I'm extremely happy for them, so is my wife and my in laws who are somewhat to very progressive. It occurs to me to wonder why happily married Christians would deny nuptial bliss to any couple that love each other. Here's the issue gays are put in by Christians. They're told that the lifestyle is sinful and that they should either abstain from sex altogether or get married to a person of the opposite sex. Many men have done that, living a lie until the lie gets too great and they revert back to their sexual set point, often cheating on their wives in secretive dalliances or outright abandoning their family.

Exhibit A:

Option B is not any better. St. Paul himself said that it is better for a man to marry than to burn with desire. Since Exodus International has demonstrated to us that it's not possible to "pray the gay away" or use therapy to change one's sexual orientation, what choice do they have? Let's review the choices again:

1. Marry a person of the opposite sex and live a lie with disastrous results that hurt an innocent wife and children.

2. Burn with sexual desire until the desire becomes to great and men hook up with other men, often multiple partners increasing the chances for STD's and drug abuse.

3. Same sex marriage; marrying a person they are attracted to and can love for the rest of their lives in a committed manner.

I'm going to be honest, though I don't like the Supreme Court circumventing the constitutional and republican form of government that clearly puts this issue to the states to decide, I'm also not of the opinion that our civilization is imperiled because people who love each other are getting married. I'm just not.

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.

I have and I got no regrets about it.

 

[deltex1]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

 

[occupied]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

It's a civil right that was denied because a bunch of religious people who have always been the worst gay-bashers didn't want it. Now the christian right is acting like an oppressed victim, maybe if they had been a little less hateful and oppressive for the last two thousand years someone would give a shit.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

You're certainly right about my friends. They hate LGBT about as much as I do and for the same reasons, and BTW, they think that gay people who sue a bakery for not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding are faggots. These women bring a level of civility and level headed rationality that is altogether absent from the gay rights movement.

But if you were to ask them why it's so important to have their commitment acknowledged before God and society as legitimate, they would turn the question right around and ask why it's important to you. I wonder if I would be ok with just having a civil contract with my wife that was nothing more than that.

I think there's few things more "golden rule" than this issue, speaking as a married man.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Gays put themselves in their own quandary. I agree with Deltex, civil unions were good enough, give them the benefits of marriage but leave traditional marriage alone. It's all part of them wanting to appear normal.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Pity you had to blemish an otherwise rare cogent post with the following errant nonsense:

“I don't like the Supreme Court circumventing the constitutional and republican form of government that clearly puts this issue to the states to decide.”

The Supreme Court did not 'circumvent' the Constitution, it appropriately followed and applied settled and accepted 14th Amendment jurisprudence consistent with a republican form of government, recognizing that citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not 'majority rule,' where residents of the states have no authority to decide who will or will not have his civil rights.

Otherwise, your post reflects the fact that 14th Amendment jurisprudence apples only to the states and local governments, not private citizens or organizations such as churches, who are at liberty to decide the matter for themselves in accordance with religious doctrine and dogma concerning marriage rituals.

It's also appropriate and important to understand that for gay Americans they are infinitely more than just their sexuality, and to focus only on that aspect of who they are is unwarranted and unproductive.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

It's a civil right that was denied because a bunch of religious people who have always been the worst gay-bashers didn't want it. Now the christian right is acting like an oppressed victim, maybe if they had been a little less hateful and oppressive for the last two thousand years someone would give a shit.

It's not oppressive and hateful, it's a failure to see things from another perspective, to put themselves in the shoes of somebody else. Christian culture and world view is a very prescribed one with clear lines designating who is in it and who isn't. Evangelical Christians in particular are lousy bridge builders and tend to cloister and exclude. It's a departure from the teachings of Christ who reached out to sinners, even to the point he was roundly criticized for it.....even by his own disciples who were much like Christians today, wanting to make an exclusive club.

By the way, you're doing the same thing. Christians aren't hateful, but are you?

 

[occupied]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

It's a civil right that was denied because a bunch of religious people who have always been the worst gay-bashers didn't want it. Now the christian right is acting like an oppressed victim, maybe if they had been a little less hateful and oppressive for the last two thousand years someone would give a shit.

It's not oppressive and hateful, it's a failure to see things from another perspective, to put themselves in the shoes of somebody else. Christian culture and world view is a very prescribed one with clear lines designating who is in it and who isn't. Evangelical Christians in particular are lousy bridge builders and tend to cloister and exclude. It's a departure from the teachings of Christ who reached out to sinners, even to the point he was roundly criticized for it.....even by his own disciples who were much like Christians today, wanting to make an exclusive club.

By the way, you're doing the same thing. Christians aren't hateful, but are you?

Not hateful, just weary of narrow-minded religious zealots trying to impose their narrow morality on secular society. I grew up in an evangelical family and it was their hateful attitudes and hypocrisy that drove me from their churches and ultimately away from religion. I did my time respecting their views but eventually I just had to quit talking to them.

 

[Misty]

Pity you had to blemish an otherwise rare cogent post with the following errant nonsense:

“I don't like the Supreme Court circumventing the constitutional and republican form of government that clearly puts this issue to the states to decide.”

The Supreme Court did not 'circumvent' the Constitution, it appropriately followed and applied settled and accepted 14th Amendment jurisprudence consistent with a republican form of government, recognizing that citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not 'majority rule,' where residents of the states have no authority to decide who will or will not have his civil rights.

Otherwise, your post reflects the fact that 14th Amendment jurisprudence apples only to the states and local governments, not private citizens or organizations such as churches, who are at liberty to decide the matter for themselves in accordance with religious doctrine and dogma concerning marriage rituals.

It's also appropriate and important to understand that for gay Americans they are infinitely more than just their sexuality, and to focus only on that aspect of who they are is unwarranted and unproductive.

Why do gays want to adopt conservative values?

I predict that as gays start marrying and having children they move to the conservative side.

 

[Silhouette]

Gay men cannot have children. They have to depend on lesbians child-trafficking (after they've had sex with a man) to get the boys they want to adopt.

 

[Silhouette]

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.
I have and I got no regrets about it.

Here's the problem gays put Christians in: Individual Christans cannot petition to redact the Bible to current trends and fads. In fact, the reason the Bible exists is to remind Christians how current trends and fads of their relative time frame can drag them down to the pit instead of entering the gates of Heaven.

You might want to visit this thread. BTW "Saint", I knew I had you pegged.

Christians are supposed to extend compassion to homosexuals. But their theft of marriage is forbidden. Whatever they do is whatever they do. But they cannot tell the rest of the world that it must like it and revere it as a commonly-held social value. That's where the Bible draws a very clear and distinct line.

Attention Episcopalians Christian Sects of All Denominations Worldwide. Pay Heed. US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[deltex1]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

You're certainly right about my friends. They hate LGBT about as much as I do and for the same reasons, and BTW, they think that gay people who sue a bakery for not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding are faggots. These women bring a level of civility and level headed rationality that is altogether absent from the gay rights movement.

But if you were to ask them why it's so important to have their commitment acknowledged before God and society as legitimate, they would turn the question right around and ask why it's important to you. I wonder if I would be ok with just having a civil contract with my wife that was nothing more than that.

I think there's few things more "golden rule" than this issue, speaking as a married man.

I think a civil contract to provide civil benefits would not bother God...let's consider it a work around. We are all challenged with propensities for one thing or another...work around and be prepared for judgement day. I have my fingers crossed for sure.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

It's irrational bigotry to claim the word marriage for opposite sex couples only. It's like some crazy claim of copyright infringement where none exists.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.
I have and I got no regrets about it.

Here's the problem gays put Christians in: Individual Christans cannot petition to redact the Bible to current trends and fads. In fact, the reason the Bible exists is to remind Christians how current trends and fads of their relative time frame can drag them down to the pit instead of entering the gates of Heaven.

You might want to visit this thread. BTW "Saint", I knew I had you pegged.

Christians are supposed to extend compassion to homosexuals. But their theft of marriage is forbidden. Whatever they do is whatever they do. But they cannot tell the rest of the world that it must like it and revere it as a commonly-held social value. That's where the Bible draws a very clear and distinct line.

Attention Episcopalians Christian Sects of All Denominations Worldwide. Pay Heed. US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The Bible is mute on civil marriage.

 

[Katzndogz]

Not a religious discussion, a discussion on cultural perspectives.

I do mix it up in our discussions about gay culture and to me it's largely sport, but there's another part of me that attempts to see these social issues through the eyes of gay people. Two of the closest friends of my family happen to be gay, a woman I've known since I was in Junior High who was a teacher of mine and her partner. They are getting married this month and we will be enthusiastic attenders. My trust in them is implicit to the point they often babysit our 4 kids and are called Aunt by them. Yes they are that close.

So their up and coming wedding has gotten me thinking about the issue of gay marriage in the Christian church. They are Christians and church goers, attending a Reconciling congregation, the kind more accepting of gays and gay marriage.

I'm extremely happy for them, so is my wife and my in laws who are somewhat to very progressive. It occurs to me to wonder why happily married Christians would deny nuptial bliss to any couple that love each other. Here's the issue gays are put in by Christians. They're told that the lifestyle is sinful and that they should either abstain from sex altogether or get married to a person of the opposite sex. Many men have done that, living a lie until the lie gets too great and they revert back to their sexual set point, often cheating on their wives in secretive dalliances or outright abandoning their family.

Exhibit A:

Option B is not any better. St. Paul himself said that it is better for a man to marry than to burn with desire. Since Exodus International has demonstrated to us that it's not possible to "pray the gay away" or use therapy to change one's sexual orientation, what choice do they have? Let's review the choices again:

1. Marry a person of the opposite sex and live a lie with disastrous results that hurt an innocent wife and children.

2. Burn with sexual desire until the desire becomes to great and men hook up with other men, often multiple partners increasing the chances for STD's and drug abuse.

3. Same sex marriage; marrying a person they are attracted to and can love for the rest of their lives in a committed manner.

I'm going to be honest, though I don't like the Supreme Court circumventing the constitutional and republican form of government that clearly puts this issue to the states to decide, I'm also not of the opinion that our civilization is imperiled because people who love each other are getting married. I'm just not.

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.

I have and I got no regrets about it.

The sin is in accepting homosexuality as if it were normal. It might be a greater sin than the act of homosexuality itself.

It's like trying to see the world through the eyes of any pervert. It looks much different to a pedophile or zoophile. All you have to do to make the world comfortable for perverts is to accept and normalize the perversion! See how you can look at the world through their eyes.

 

[deltex1]

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.
I have and I got no regrets about it.

Here's the problem gays put Christians in: Individual Christans cannot petition to redact the Bible to current trends and fads. In fact, the reason the Bible exists is to remind Christians how current trends and fads of their relative time frame can drag them down to the pit instead of entering the gates of Heaven.

You might want to visit this thread. BTW "Saint", I knew I had you pegged.

Christians are supposed to extend compassion to homosexuals. But their theft of marriage is forbidden. Whatever they do is whatever they do. But they cannot tell the rest of the world that it must like it and revere it as a commonly-held social value. That's where the Bible draws a very clear and distinct line.

Attention Episcopalians Christian Sects of All Denominations Worldwide. Pay Heed. US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The Bible is mute on civil marriage.

You should do the same.

 

[Katzndogz]

Pity you had to blemish an otherwise rare cogent post with the following errant nonsense:

“I don't like the Supreme Court circumventing the constitutional and republican form of government that clearly puts this issue to the states to decide.”

The Supreme Court did not 'circumvent' the Constitution, it appropriately followed and applied settled and accepted 14th Amendment jurisprudence consistent with a republican form of government, recognizing that citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not 'majority rule,' where residents of the states have no authority to decide who will or will not have his civil rights.

Otherwise, your post reflects the fact that 14th Amendment jurisprudence apples only to the states and local governments, not private citizens or organizations such as churches, who are at liberty to decide the matter for themselves in accordance with religious doctrine and dogma concerning marriage rituals.

It's also appropriate and important to understand that for gay Americans they are infinitely more than just their sexuality, and to focus only on that aspect of who they are is unwarranted and unproductive.

Why do gays want to adopt conservative values?

I predict that as gays start marrying and having children they move to the conservative side.

As odious as it is to blame children for the sins of the parents, the children of gays must be ostracized just as much as the parents. Any form of acceptance is wrong.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So here I am, a Christian, telling my fellow Christians that the solution may be to start talking TO homosexuals instead of about them; to forge friendships like I have and gain a new perspective and try to see the world through their eyes.
I have and I got no regrets about it.

Here's the problem gays put Christians in: Individual Christans cannot petition to redact the Bible to current trends and fads. In fact, the reason the Bible exists is to remind Christians how current trends and fads of their relative time frame can drag them down to the pit instead of entering the gates of Heaven.

You might want to visit this thread. BTW "Saint", I knew I had you pegged.

Christians are supposed to extend compassion to homosexuals. But their theft of marriage is forbidden. Whatever they do is whatever they do. But they cannot tell the rest of the world that it must like it and revere it as a commonly-held social value. That's where the Bible draws a very clear and distinct line.

Attention Episcopalians Christian Sects of All Denominations Worldwide. Pay Heed. US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The Bible is mute on civil marriage.

You should do the same.

My point stands unrefuted.

Civil marriage is none of religion's business.

 

[deltex1]

I basically agree. But why isn't a civil contract enough. Live together. Love together. Benefit together. But leave marriage intact. Perhaps your friends don't push the political agenda...but the political left does...and it has little to do with concern for gays.

It's irrational bigotry to claim the word marriage for opposite sex couples only. It's like some crazy claim of copyright infringement where none exists.

It's like the liberals claiming the word responsibility....?

 

[NYcarbineer]

[
As odious as it is to blame children for the sins of the parents, the children of gays must be ostracized just as much as the parents. Any form of acceptance is wrong.

lol, see, all you 'it's not bigotry! it's not hate! babblers?