Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[alang1216]

You base your perception of God on the bible. Why?

Unlike you, I don't believe that wishes, logic, or physical evidence can reveal God so the only source is the Bible (and what people get from the Bible).

 

[Meriweather]

I don't believe that wishes, logic, or physical evidence can reveal God so the only source is the Bible

And this 'only source' teaches us to seek God and we will find him. This is to be encouraged as it is truth.

 

[alang1216]

And this 'only source' teaches us to seek God and we will find him. This is to be encouraged as it is truth.

People are very good at finding whatever they expect to find: God, angels, the devil, ghosts, ET, leprechauns, Elvis, etc. Without the Bible to guide the search, people come up with very different views: Christians and Aztecs had little theology in common before they met.

 

[Meriweather]

People are very good at finding whatever they expect to find

Is that the reason for not searching at all?

 

[onefour1]

Based on what he does (genocide) in the Noah's Ark story, wiping out just about all living creatures, it'd seem that God actually gets turned on by a little violence...

This life being a temporal existence to allow mankind to learn to choose good over evil, I would think God, seeing that man chose corruption and evil over good, would have good reason to start over to allow the world a fresh start at being a good place.

 

[alang1216]

Is that the reason for not searching at all?

Actually, yes it is. Better to find nothing than a lie we tell ourselves.

 

[ding]

Unlike you, I don't believe that wishes, logic, or physical evidence can reveal God so the only source is the Bible (and what people get from the Bible).

Your poor opinion of God is based upon a book you don't believe and you don't see the problem with that?

If I studied something you created I could learn certain things about you. No wishing required. Just physical evidence and logic. Odd that you would pooh pooh that in favor of a book you don't believe.

When discussing the creator of existence, why is it again that you believe the ONLY source of information is from a book you don't believe? Tell me again why we can't use what he created as evidence?

 

[ding]

Actually, yes it is. Better to find nothing than a lie we tell ourselves.

But you are telling yourself a lie when you tell yourself the only source of information is the bible. You've created quite the convenient self fulfilling prophecy. Ignore the physical evidence and rely on something you don't believe and can twist to whatever you want it to be. In case you haven't noticed people come to very different conclusions as to what specific accounts in the bible says.

 

[sparky]

If God is an all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, then why is there evil in the world?

Because he allowed the devil in the world

My answer is the Creator is a non-intervening "God". He created life and set the initial conditions and then just let nature take it's course. Simple as that.

oh sure Mike .......that we're a race of f*ck ups created in His image says it all!

~S~

 

[Meriweather]

Actually, yes it is. Better to find nothing than a lie we tell ourselves.

You lie to yourself? And lying to yourself, assume that everyone else does as well? "Seek and you will find" is truth. Excusing oneself from seeking because only a lie is available to be found is...well, inexcusable. As I've said many times: People who argue for their limitations get to keep them. Living without God limits one to the physical world. That is a large world, apparently large enough for some...but it is far from all there is.

 

[MarathonMike]

Because he allowed the devil in the world

oh sure Mike .......that we're a race of f*ck ups created in His image says it all!

~S~

What is so hard about the concept of free will and each person making their own decisions?

 

[sparky]

What is so hard about the concept of free will and each person making their own decisions?

Only that He (biblically speaking) let the devil on in to sway us Mike



~S~

 

[alang1216]

Your poor opinion of God is based upon a book you don't believe and you don't see the problem with that?

I believe the book exists and has many valuable things to say about the ancient world. It is what it says about God that gives me such a poor opinion of him/her/it.

If I studied something you created I could learn certain things about you. No wishing required. Just physical evidence and logic. Odd that you would pooh pooh that in favor of a book you don't believe.

I have studied the world and, if I were to presume there were a God, the design of the world would give me a poor opinion of him/her/it.

When discussing the creator of existence, why is it again that you believe the ONLY source of information is from a book you don't believe? Tell me again why we can't use what he created as evidence?

The universe is all I use to shape my beliefs about this possible creator. As I've said, I'm agnostic on the existence of a Creator but whether he exists or not, I see no connection between the creator of existence and the God of the Bible.

 

[alang1216]

the physical world [...] is far from all there is.

You say that, and I'm sure you believe it, but, until I see some actual evidence I can't join in. The fact that every human culture to date believed as you do, that there is something more, fails to sway me since no two cultures arrived at the same place independently.

 

[alang1216]

But you are telling yourself a lie when you tell yourself the only source of information is the bible. You've created quite the convenient self fulfilling prophecy. Ignore the physical evidence and rely on something you don't believe and can twist to whatever you want it to be. In case you haven't noticed people come to very different conclusions as to what specific accounts in the bible says.

The only evidence I see for the God of the Bible comes from the Bible and the Bible stories about him are rather horrendous. There is nothing in the physical world that says "I am" (Yahweh).

 

[Clyde 154]

Your problem? You fail to realize that man is an animal.


There is moral code in the animal world and we see it in social animals that have to live together. Mother monkeys especially and the entire group to a lesser degree will discipline the youngsters when they behave in an unacceptable way.


I hear this all the time but history teaches a very different lesson. The morality of the Bronze age is different from the morality of Jesus' time and that morality is different from the morality of the West today. You may not believe in evolution but I see evolution in all things, biology, culture, religion, etc.


I have good friends who are devout, evangelical Christians. We talk politics and religion and laugh at ourselves and each other quite a lot. Atheists are no different from the religious, some hate the other group some don't.

Again you are attempting to deflect away from actually answering the question. Where did MORALITY come from if none exists in nature? In order to refute the evidence that morality transcends nature you must present an example of morality within nature.......other than from man, the only sentient being on earth. In one breath you present nature as being capable of evil by presenting the hypothetical that animals kill other animals.....and they are JUST LIKE NATURE MADE THEM.........then in the next breath attempt to show an example of morality because a mother chimp protects her offspring and this is evolution........NOT LIKE NATURE MADE THEM. Show me the first Chimp that did not protect its offspring......by instinct and how this immorality evolved into MORALITY.......if morality evolves in the animal kingdom, it must have evolved from something. If animals were not created with the instinct to protect their young......would there be any young to EVOLVE?




Show me an animal that can enjoy art, create music and read them from notes...........write entire sentences in order to completely transfer and save mental cognitive ideas. Show me an animal that makes plans years in advance of action.......an animal that comprehends their actions effect other living creatures and demonstrates empathy. Just one more question..........if morality exists in the animal kingdom, why did the chimp that ate its owners face off not get its day in the courtrooms.....it was simply put down like the rogue animal it was.........clearly it did not comprehend that its action would end in its own death nor did it demonstrate empathy for its lack of moral guidance.

You base your perception of God on the bible. Why?

Why? Because not one word in the Bible has been proven OBJECTIVELY FALSE. A good example (Genesis 1:24)............the bible states that reproduction can only come from animals within the same species...........each after its own kind. Evolution attempts to teach that animals evolve OUTSIDE OF SPECIES.......this theory was debunked in the 19th century by the scientific experiments conducted by Louis Pasteur (The Law of Biogenesis proved the 1866 theory via use of the Scientific Method conducted by Pasteur), and this Law of Physics has never been proven wrong by any Darwinian Cultist.......man clearly did evolve from POND SCUM as suggested by Darwin. Spontaneous Generation is taught as truth every day in our education systems around the world........even though its been debunked by Applied Science. Life has never evolved from non living matter. There is not one example of such on earth.


SHOW US THE "LAW OF EVOLUTION" AS PROVEN VIA THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is a reason that evolution is a THEORY (idea), there is no evidence to confirm that its a law of nature/physics. I bet you hear and ignore this truth all the time......

 

[Meriweather]

You say that, and I'm sure you believe it, but, until I see some actual evidence I can't join in.

Exactly the point: Argue for the limitations and they're yours. Arguing for "actual evidence"--i.e. physical proof--and that's the chosen boundary that has many deciding it cannot be overcome; they become settlers. In the past, the sea was the boundary most accepted...but there were sailors who would not be stopped. They were not settlers. In America, the mountains were the boundaries, but pioneers pushed on, up and over. They were not settlers. Others chose to settle on the plains.

I am one who testifies there is something beyond your settling point of physical evidence, that those who seek can find. Of old, sailors could not bring new lands to other places. People who lived in these other places and to sail to these new lands and experience for themselves that the sea was not a boundary after all.

The fact that every human culture to date believed as you do, that there is something more, fails to sway me since no two cultures arrived at the same place independently.

Did all early explorers end up in the same place? Did some end up in one place whereas others ended up in another? Did some find ice and snow while others found balmy temperatures? It seems different discoveries can also create (for some) an impassable boundary.

 

[frigidweirdo]

This life being a temporal existence to allow mankind to learn to choose good over evil, I would think God, seeing that man chose corruption and evil over good, would have good reason to start over to allow the world a fresh start at being a good place.

Why?

What is "good and evil"? It's a human construct.

Do lions go around thinking about whether it's evil to chase and eat animals? No, they don't.

And humans' ideas about what is "evil" is very, very human-centric. They don't care too much about other animals other than those which we've personified, usually cats and dogs.

God, if he exists, made humans as omnivores. We're designed to kill. It's in our nature. Man chose evil over good? What evil?

Let's take a look. In Noah's time, God thought that people who didn't have guns, artillery, atomic weapons, etc etc were "evil" enough to WIPE THEM OUT, only saving one family (which is dumb in itself because that means all humans are inbred) and taking out loads of animals with them too.

Then we had WW1 and WW2, the Cold War with Korea, Vietnam and all kinds of other horrific things like Pol Pot, Pinochet, Stalin's gulags and the like.

And God's like "don't care".

Why?

 

[onefour1]

Why?

If the whole earth was in a state of complete wickedness it would be extremely difficult for goodness to come out of it. For this reason I believe that God brought the flood in the days of Noah to cleanse the earth of all its wickedness. Mankind was in a state where they would not repent and were evil continually except for a very few whom he saved to perpetuate mankind on the earth.

What is "good and evil"? It's a human construct.

Well, I would agree that it is a human construct because I believe God is a human. He is not a mortal human but He is an immortal, perfectly good human. God knowing what is best for all intelligent life, declares what is good. By creating or establishing good, its opposite exists in principle. Only when mankind refuses to follow the goodness of God, does evil exist in reality.

Do lions go around thinking about whether it's evil to chase and eat animals? No, they don't.

This life being a temporary mortal existence was created to allow not only mankind but all living things to experience both good and evil that they might learn to choose good over evil. Evidently before the fall of man, all animals lived together in the Garden of Eden without killing and and hunting each other. So there is something about being in a fallen world that brings about a ferocity even in animals. When Christ returns and established peace on earth, it will then again be a time when the lamb will lie down again with the lion and the carnivorous nature of hunting and kill will disappear among the animal kingdom. I believe there is something about experiencing this temporary fallen mortal world that will bring a greater understanding and appreciation to man and animals of living in peace with each other. Here is an interesting verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:39
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

This verse mentions that to be free agents we must be given a choice between good and evil and thus the devil was placed upon the earth to tempt us to do evil. I think free will is an extremely important principle in that in order for mankind to be truly good in and of himself, he must understand both good and evil and choose goodness of his own free will and choice to truly be a good being in and of himself. God gives us free will so that we can become truly good beings by being able to choose good over evil of our own free will and choice so that it is us who choose it and not have it imposed upon us. Free will is so critical in becoming a good being of our own will. Another interesting concept of this verse is that we need to experience the bitter that we might know the sweet. In other words, if there is no contrast or opposition in things, would we really understand the difference or appreciate goodness over evil? Maybe this is why God created this temporary existence for us to come to a higher degree of knowledge and understanding of good and evil.

And humans' ideas about what is "evil" is very, very human-centric. They don't care too much about other animals other than those which we've personified, usually cats and dogs.

Like I said above, I believe God is an immortal perfectly good human. So yes, primary reasoning of good and evil tend to center around humans. But I don't think that this means that God does not care for and also love animals. It may very well be for the progression of animals in the eternities that they too need to experience a mortal good and evil existence.

God, if he exists, made humans as omnivores. We're designed to kill. It's in our nature. Man chose evil over good? What evil?

I don't necessarily believe that man was designed to kill. There are, after all, vegetarians among us and it is possible for man to choose not to eat meat. I don't believe that an immortal resurrected man or woman will even need to eat in the hereafter. I think man in his fallen state has found a curiosity and learn of himself to kill and eat animals. I don't think God has an objection to it since this life is only temporary and at times food has been scarce upon the earth. I do believe however, that God wants us to eat meat sparingly and not have industries that shell out meat for consumption. In my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have received revelation from God which is called a "The Word of Wisdom" which is a guide for health which speaks of this topic: The Word of Wisdom.

Let's take a look. In Noah's time, God thought that people who didn't have guns, artillery, atomic weapons, etc etc were "evil" enough to WIPE THEM OUT, only saving one family (which is dumb in itself because that means all humans are inbred) and taking out loads of animals with them too.

God had animals come to Noah to be saved in the Ark. I don't blame God for how and when He takes man or animals from this temporary existence since I believe they will all live eternally and immortally forever and ever. I look at this world as a temporary existence and God as the overseer of such. He has promised us all immortality so that we will have an everlasting existence.

Then we had WW1 and WW2, the Cold War with Korea, Vietnam and all kinds of other horrific things like Pol Pot, Pinochet, Stalin's gulags and the like.

And God's like "don't care".

Why?

If god is going to give us the opportunity to choose good over evil, then I believe He will only minimally interfere in this temporary mortal existence. It is a temporary learning ground for us all to gain experience of good and evil and for us to determine what manner of mankind are we willing to become when left to ourselves to decide. As I stated above, I believe it is critical for man to have the opportunity to choose good over evil of his own free will and choice to truly become a good being in and of himself. God allows much wickedness to occur in this drop of bucket existence because of our free will but will give all of us immortality in the future. We all pick the future place we will all inhabit by what manner of being we choose to become. Some will inherit the kingdom of heaven while others will choose outer darkness because they choose to love wickedness more than righteousness. God will put the wicked with the righteous but will put all who are alike with those who are like themselves.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If the whole earth was in a state of complete wickedness it would be extremely difficult for goodness to come out of it. For this reason I believe that God brought the flood in the days of Noah to cleanse the earth of all its wickedness. Mankind was in a state where they would not repent and were evil continually except for a very few whom he saved to perpetuate mankind on the earth.

Well, I would agree that it is a human construct because I believe God is a human. He is not a mortal human but He is an immortal, perfectly good human. God knowing what is best for all intelligent life, declares what is good. By creating or establishing good, its opposite exists in principle. Only when mankind refuses to follow the goodness of God, does evil exist in reality.

This life being a temporary mortal existence was created to allow not only mankind but all living things to experience both good and evil that they might learn to choose good over evil. Evidently before the fall of man, all animals lived together in the Garden of Eden without killing and and hunting each other. So there is something about being in a fallen world that brings about a ferocity even in animals. When Christ returns and established peace on earth, it will then again be a time when the lamb will lie down again with the lion and the carnivorous nature of hunting and kill will disappear among the animal kingdom. I believe there is something about experiencing this temporary fallen mortal world that will bring a greater understanding and appreciation to man and animals of living in peace with each other. Here is an interesting verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:39
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

This verse mentions that to be free agents we must be given a choice between good and evil and thus the devil was placed upon the earth to tempt us to do evil. I think free will is an extremely important principle in that in order for mankind to be truly good in and of himself, he must understand both good and evil and choose goodness of his own free will and choice to truly be a good being in and of himself. God gives us free will so that we can become truly good beings by being able to choose good over evil of our own free will and choice so that it is us who choose it and not have it imposed upon us. Free will is so critical in becoming a good being of our own will. Another interesting concept of this verse is that we need to experience the bitter that we might know the sweet. In other words, if there is no contrast or opposition in things, would we really understand the difference or appreciate goodness over evil? Maybe this is why God created this temporary existence for us to come to a higher degree of knowledge and understanding of good and evil.

Like I said above, I believe God is an immortal perfectly good human. So yes, primary reasoning of good and evil tend to center around humans. But I don't think that this means that God does not care for and also love animals. It may very well be for the progression of animals in the eternities that they too need to experience a mortal good and evil existence.

I don't necessarily believe that man was designed to kill. There are, after all, vegetarians among us and it is possible for man to choose not to eat meat. I don't believe that an immortal resurrected man or woman will even need to eat in the hereafter. I think man in his fallen state has found a curiosity and learn of himself to kill and eat animals. I don't think God has an objection to it since this life is only temporary and at times food has been scarce upon the earth. I do believe however, that God wants us to eat meat sparingly and not have industries that shell out meat for consumption. In my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have received revelation from God which is called a "The Word of Wisdom" which is a guide for health which speaks of this topic: The Word of Wisdom.

God had animals come to Noah to be saved in the Ark. I don't blame God for how and when He takes man or animals from this temporary existence since I believe they will all live eternally and immortally forever and ever. I look at this world as a temporary existence and God as the overseer of such. He has promised us all immortality so that we will have an everlasting existence.

If god is going to give us the opportunity to choose good over evil, then I believe He will only minimally interfere in this temporary mortal existence. It is a temporary learning ground for us all to gain experience of good and evil and for us to determine what manner of mankind are we willing to become when left to ourselves to decide. As I stated above, I believe it is critical for man to have the opportunity to choose good over evil of his own free will and choice to truly become a good being in and of himself. God allows much wickedness to occur in this drop of bucket existence because of our free will but will give all of us immortality in the future. We all pick the future place we will all inhabit by what manner of being we choose to become. Some will inherit the kingdom of heaven while others will choose outer darkness because they choose to love wickedness more than righteousness. God will put the wicked with the righteous but will put all who are alike with those who are like themselves.

Did God cleanse the earth of "evil"? Clearly not, there's evil all around us, all the time. Murder happens every day in the US. The politicians are evil fuckers, big businesses are often run by evil fuckers.

Do people repent these days? Do you see Russia repenting? Do you see the US repenting the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Nope, the US will still say it was justified.

You believe God is Human? Er.... but he's not a mortal human. Humans are mortal. So he's not human then.