Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[ninja007]

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our answer to the "Problem of Evil" is first answered by the the following latter day verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This verse tells us two things. First it tells us that God is not all powerful in that He can do anything imaginable. This verse tells us something that not even God can do. He cannot create intelligence. We believe that God is capable of doing all that is possible. However, there are eternal impossibilities and this revelation tells us so. Mere mortals are not even capable of imagining all that is possible in this vast universe. However, God knows all things and has all power in that he can do all things that are possible. Second, we learn from this verse we learn that the intelligence of all things can never be created. In other words, we believe that our intelligence is self-existing. Yes, we believe that a part of all living things that have intelligence have always existed as intelligence.

Now if God could not create our intelligence, it goes without saying that he could not create our intelligence to be perfect. Thus we are as we have always existed. However, we are subject to progression and gaining more knowledge and intelligence. So God, knowing that he could not create us to be perfect as He is, came up with another way for us to become more like Himself through learning to progress through the process of experiencing a temporary mortal life of good and evil using our own free will and choice. Free will is critical to becoming a good being. If we did not learn to choose good over evil of our own free will would we really become good beings in and of ourselves? No! Lucifer's plan in the premortal world of spirits was to force mankind to do good and in this way he supposed to save all mankind. God rejected this plan because if mankind does not choose good over evil of his own free will, then mankind is not really becoming a good being in and of himself. Free will is critical for mankind to become a truly good being. By choosing good over evil and loving goodness more than evil we become more like God and become good beings in and of ourselves. So basically, we are sent to this temporary mortal world of good and evil to learn to choose good over evil of our own free will and choice. By going through this experience of mortal life we can become more perfect like our Father in Heaven is perfect. Thus the purpose of having evil in the world is learn that it is bad and that goodness is good and that we should love good over evil. Since free will is critical, God knows that not all mankind will choose good over evil but that some will choose evil over good.

Not being made perfect and being in an imperfect state, God knew that we would make mistakes and thus created a way for us to repent and find forgiveness of sin and we struggle to become good beings. He thus provided us with his atoning sacrifice so that we could have many chances to overcome evil and choose good over evil and become good beings. The drawback is that not all of us take advantage of this wonderful gift of God and repent and seek forgiveness but go on committing evil and even loving it. This is the belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and our answer to the problem of evil.

man made doctrine not the Word of God.

 

[alang1216]

God made Eden where the kittens were safe. We screwed that up.

So God punished the innocent to punish the guilty? Well it wouldn't be the only time.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Libby von H]

When I was in college and took a philosophy of religion course, I was presented with the "problem of evil" paradox that has been made in the philosophies of religion. It goes something like this:

If God is an all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, then why is there evil in the world?

In other words, if God is all powerful, He would have the power to not allow evil in the world. If God is all knowing, He would have the know how to stop evil from being in the world. And, if God is an all loving and benevolent God surely He would not allow evil into the world! So, since there is evil in the world, then God cannot exist.

This is how the problem of evil was presented to me in my philosophy of religion course. After studying this "problem of evil" for several years upon hearing it, I finally came up with my LDS response to why there is evil in the world and why God allows it. I am curious as to how others answer this philosophical issue. So I ask all God fearing believers, how would you respond to this?

You had a craapy course if it never mentioned that St Augustine answered that to the great satisfaction of the ancient world. so much so that Aqunias quotes it

And the answer shows the false assumption in the very question

"
412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.” and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!'”

The answers provided by Leo the Great, Aquinas, Paul, and the Exsultet all converge on the idea that God allowed man to fall into sin because he knew he could bring about a greater good by doing so.

This does not necessarily mean a greater good for every individual (e.g., people who commit mortal sin and decide to stay there may not end up with a greater benefit in the long run, although this is itself arguable), but it does mean that there will be greater net good in general."

 

[alang1216]

Maimonides responds... emphasis mine.

"MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation: there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. It would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter: in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare.

It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils." Maimonides

You'll be shocked to hear I disagree. Is the snake that eats kittens, evil or is it just living as it was made to live? Is the lion that kills the cubs of another lion evil or just trying to pass on his genes as his nature demands? I'm a believer in evolution and evolution requires winners and losers and this is the world we were born into. If there is a God, He designed this world to have winners and losers and He put man right in the middle of it. Genghis Khan built the largest empire man has ever seen and is celebrated as a great hero in Mongolia. The 10% of the population of Earth he killed might not agree. Was he evil or just following God's plan?

If a clock doesn't keep time you blame the clock maker, not the clock.

 

[Libby von H]

So God punished the innocent to punish the guilty? Well it wouldn't be the only time.

No,just the opposite if you would use your head.,

What is a punishment for one person is a good for another if they have the faith to see that God is like a parent

HEBREWS 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

Even death you misunderstand and Creation



* But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things;


and you overlook sins for the sake of repentance.



24For you love all things that are


and loathe nothing that you have made;

for you would not fashion what you hate.



25How could a thing remain, unless you willed it;


or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?r



26But you spare all things, because they are yours,


O Ruler and Lover of souls,s



12:1for your imperishable spirit is in all things!
====
You say you are reasonable, is that not reasonable???

 

[Libby von H]

You'll be shocked to hear I disagree. Is the snake that eats kittens, evil or is it just living as it was made to live? Is the lion that kills the cubs of another lion evil or just trying to pass on his genes as his nature demands? I'm a believer in evolution and evolution requires winners and losers and this is the world we were born into. If there is a God, He designed this world to have winners and losers and He put man right in the middle of it. Genghis Khan built the largest empire man has ever seen and is celebrated as a great hero in Mongolia. The 10% of the population of Earth he killed might not agree. Was he evil or just following God's plan?

If a clock doesn't keep time you blame the clock maker, not the clock.

How illogical is your response....on at least 3 counts
God's want is that the lion shall lie down with the lamb. Death came thru rebellion. I know you reject that but don't selectively quote the BIble

Evolution as you understand it is dumb sht., I will debate you any time.
God's design of the world is the opposite, again you fail to quote


* But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things;


and you overlook sins for the sake of repentance.p



24For you love all things that are


and loathe nothing that you have made;

for you would not fashion what you hate.q



25How could a thing remain, unless you willed it;


or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?r



26But you spare all things, because they are yours,


O Ruler and Lover of souls,s



12:1for your imperishable spirit is in all things!a


==================
IF a clock keeps bad time and you know what it takes to make such a complex thing, you start with a wise rational Creator and ask what went WRONG ---at least normal people do

You want an all Good world but you don't want Freedom -- and you think that in any case this escapes the One who made this clock

YOU ARE IRRATIONAL By your way fo reasoning we have an Evil creator and now YOU have to explain the good you see.

 

[ding]

You'll be shocked to hear I disagree. Is the snake that eats kittens, evil or is it just living as it was made to live? Is the lion that kills the cubs of another lion evil or just trying to pass on his genes as his nature demands? I'm a believer in evolution and evolution requires winners and losers and this is the world we were born into. If there is a God, He designed this world to have winners and losers and He put man right in the middle of it. Genghis Khan built the largest empire man has ever seen and is celebrated as a great hero in Mongolia. The 10% of the population of Earth he killed might not agree. Was he evil or just following God's plan?

If a clock doesn't keep time you blame the clock maker, not the clock.

It seems your argument against God is that the universe is cruel and unjust. Have you ever considered that the flesh is of no avail. That the only thing that matters is your soul? You seem to struggle with making sense of the complexities of life but you don't seem struggle with your sense of right and wrong.

 

[alang1216]

No,just the opposite if you would use your head.,

What is a punishment for one person is a good for another if they have the faith to see that God is like a parent

HEBREWS 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

Even death you misunderstand and Creation



* But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things;


and you overlook sins for the sake of repentance.



24For you love all things that are


and loathe nothing that you have made;

for you would not fashion what you hate.



25How could a thing remain, unless you willed it;


or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?r



26But you spare all things, because they are yours,


O Ruler and Lover of souls,s



12:1for your imperishable spirit is in all things!
====
You say you are reasonable, is that not reasonable???

King David took a census of his people so God killed 70,000 men, women, and children in punishment. King David was not killed. Is that reasonable?

 

[alang1216]

How illogical is your response....on at least 3 counts
God's want is that the lion shall lie down with the lamb. Death came thru rebellion.

The lamb's death came from man's rebellion? Another case of the innocent being killed to punish the guilty.

I know you reject that but don't selectively quote the BIble

I won't if you won't.

Evolution as you understand it is dumb sht., I will debate you any time.
God's design of the world is the opposite, again you fail to quote

That is not the world I see around me and I'm happy to have that debate.

IF a clock keeps bad time and you know what it takes to make such a complex thing, you start with a wise rational Creator and ask what went WRONG ---at least normal people do

You want an all Good world but you don't want Freedom -- and you think that in any case this escapes the One who made this clock

YOU ARE IRRATIONAL By your way fo reasoning we have an Evil creator and now YOU have to explain the good you see.

I think it is you who needs to rethink what is evil and what is not and why it is so.

 

[Meriweather]

King David took a census of his people so God killed 70,000 men, women, and children in punishment. King David was not killed. Is that reasonable?

It helps to remember that there are consequences for wrong acts, and those consequences are often attributed to God, not the acts that began the ball rolling (so-to-speak). In Biblical times, a plague was not only death due to sickness, but death due to battle.

David announced a census to see how many men of his were fit for battle. News that David was preparing for battle came to the ears of his enemies, so they made their own, less public preparations. The result, 70,000 killed. Was this the actual number, or symbolic of 7 or 70, which can mean completion....i.e., it may have meant those who went into this battle were completely destroyed.

 

[Libby von H]

King David took a census of his people so God killed 70,000 men, women, and children in punishment. King David was not killed. Is that reasonable?

Depends totally on whether they went to Heaven and would not agree with you at all.
But that line of thought is just what you avoid. IF a mother drinks too much and the child has fetal alchohol syndrome , why is that different ???

More than that , every person's life now is less than it could be because of every other person. Why is that different ????

I see what you CANNOT SEE

23You are powerful enough to do anything, but you are merciful to everyone; you overlook our sins and give us time to repent. 24You love everything that exists; you do not despise anything that you have made. If you had not liked it, you would not have made it in the first place. 25How could anything last, if you did not want it to? How could it endure, if you had not created it? 26You have allowed it all to exist, O Lord, because it is yours, and you love every living thing.
SO either say 'There is no God" --- which destroys your point and makes the question Why is there any GOOD in the world?
OR say that the same Bible says
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

NOtice too the expanatory addition of Augustine and Aquinas (which shows your grave error in logic)

 

[alang1216]

It seems your argument against God is that the universe is cruel and unjust.

On the contrary, the universe is exactly the way it has to be based on natural laws.

Have you ever considered that the flesh is of no avail. That the only thing that matters is your soul?

People have tried to weigh the soul and found it to be zero. Flesh appears to be all there is.

You seem to struggle with making sense of the complexities of life but you don't seem struggle with your sense of right and wrong.

I think I understand life as well as anyone, but it is you who seem struggle with my sense of right and wrong, not me.

 

[surada]

God made Eden where the kittens were safe. We screwed that up.

You take the story of Eden literally? In the older version Eden was a playground for the gods and humans were the gardeners until they became too numerous and too noisy.

 

[alang1216]

It helps to remember that there are consequences for wrong acts, and those consequences are often attributed to God, not the acts that began the ball rolling (so-to-speak). In Biblical times, a plague was not only death due to sickness, but death due to battle.

David announced a census to see how many men of his were fit for battle. News that David was preparing for battle came to the ears of his enemies, so they made their own, less public preparations. The result, 70,000 killed. Was this the actual number, or symbolic of 7 or 70, which can mean completion....i.e., it may have meant those who went into this battle were completely destroyed.

Seems to me you are writing your own scripture:

1 Chronicles 21: So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: `Take your choice:

1. three years of famine,
2. three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you,
3. or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.'

David chose #3 not #2.

 

[Meriweather]

David chose #3 not #2.

Sword was involved in #3 as well...different attacks by different tribes, perhaps? Jews not only study what we call scripture, but commentary as well. One point that comes up often enough is that God does not have emotions as humans do; he does not become angry and begin smiting with swords, plagues, floods, whatever. What Judaism teaches is that consequences/punishments are already built into actions.

Humans understand emotions, especially anger, and assign that anger to God. Note when something goes wrong, they blame themselves, noting their own wrong-doing and observing the consequences that came about because they did wrong.

It is humans living in modern Western culture that blame God for whatever goes wrong. In Biblical times, the Hebrews accepted responsibility for all that went wrong. We in modern times are more like Adam and Eve--looking for anyone else to blame but ourselves. Hebrews learned from Adam and Eve passing the buck, and stepped up to the plate (to mix metaphors. )

When the plague hit--it whatever form it took--People looked at themselves. What were they doing wrong? The forbidden counting of the people was there in front of them, especially David, who ordered the census taken.

 

[otto105]

All I can figure is God must be a democrat.



But in all seriousness, there is only one problem of someone of faith, and that is to explain suffering. It is a life long struggle that you never fully conquer. Of course, suffering is a result of evil.

However, the atheist has it far worse as they have to explain everything else.

I look at it this way, evil is described as "darkness". What is darkness? Darkness does not really exist, rather, darkness is merely a way to describe the lack of light. When there is no light, you suffer blindness. Only God can turn on the light.

Evil?

And then god sent us trump...

 

[alang1216]

Sword was involved in #3 as well...different attacks by different tribes, perhaps?

From the Book of Meriweather?

Jews not only study what we call scripture, but commentary as well. One point that comes up often enough is that God does not have emotions as humans do; he does not become angry and begin smiting with swords, plagues, floods, whatever. What Judaism teaches is that consequences/punishments are already built into actions.

The Bible teaches that we can't know God's plan so sometimes consequences/punishments are already built into actions but sometimes they are not. Ask Job and his family why he was punished.

Humans understand emotions, especially anger, and assign that anger to God. Note when something goes wrong, they blame themselves, noting their own wrong-doing and observing the consequences that came about because they did wrong.

Cognitive Dissonance. Why were the covenants of God broken when Israel and Judea were conquered and the people exiled? It couldn't be God's doing so it must have been the Israelites doing. Another example of the innocent suffering to punishing the guilty.

It is humans living in modern Western culture that blame God for whatever goes wrong. In Biblical times, the Hebrews accepted responsibility for all that went wrong. We in modern times are more like Adam and Eve--looking for anyone else to blame but ourselves. Hebrews learned from Adam and Eve passing the buck, and stepped up to the plate (to mix metaphors. )

When the plague hit--it whatever form it took--People looked at themselves. What were they doing wrong? The forbidden counting of the people was there in front of them, especially David, who ordered the census taken.

Matthew 5 He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

God made Eden where the kittens were safe. We screwed that up.

Feline and Feel Fine

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Maimonides responds... emphasis mine.

"MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation: there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. It would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter: in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare.

It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils." Maimonides

Inherit the Wind

The Age of Faith was stagnant and sterile. Time stopped dead in its tracks instead of marching on.