The Original Sin of Israel

[Marc39]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

I dread posting about the issue of Isreal here because there's so much hatred and malice here that no matter what you say somebody is going to declare you a Jew Hater or a terrorist lover or something,

But that said, George is asking us the right question.

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

You're severely uneducated, like George. You can French kiss each other.

Jews have lived CONTINUOUSLY in "Palestine" for 4,000 years, over 2,500 years before the Muzzie interlopers invaded.

Jews have a postage-size strip of land while Muzzies own 99.9% of the Middle East.

Jews have too much land? Muzzies don't have enough land?

Your head is up your ass. See a proctologist

 

[jillian]

And there's been plenty of Palestinians born in that land, and they ALSO have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

that's a fallacy. they are transjordanians who jordan refuses to take in... unlike israel which takes in jews from everywhere. there are a dozen other muslim countries they could live in.

by the same token, what would you say if i stood on the border of belarus lobbing bombs at the inhabitants because my great grandfather owned property and my family got chased out by pogroms?

would you say it was a "moral dilemma"? or would you tell me to go pound salt? i'm figuring, that belarus wouldn't be very tolerant of the missiles and the rest of the world wouldn't say boo when they blew me away.

My point here is pretty simple...

history alone cannot help us solve this debate, and neither will it give either side the HIGHER moral ground.

well, if not history, how about the fact that they started wars and lost and now want a do-over? that doesn't fly so well, no? and the only place those questions are ever asked is with regard to israel.

NOBODY has the higher moral ground and nobody here has a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to the land, either.

israelis don't intentionally target civilian populations. hamas and hezbollah do. i figure that gives israel the higher moral ground. you are, of course, free to disagree, in which case i refer you to my prior point.

Sadly, when it comes to GEOPOLTICS, might makes right.

Wishing that wasn't so doesn't change it.

In that respect Israel/Palestine is really no idfferent than any other land on earth.

exactly. and while a shame, if that is ignored, then california and texas may as well be ceded back to mexico.

but what do you think the U.S. would do to a bunch of terrorists lobbying missiles over our southern border?

i'm thinking we wouldn't be as restrained as israel.

 

[High_Gravity]

Why is it wrong for Israel to consider itself a Jewish State when every country around it considers themselves Islamic countries?

 

[jillian]

Why is it wrong for Israel to consider itself a Jewish State when every country around it considers themselves Islamic countries?

because they're jews.

 

[High_Gravity]

Why is it wrong for Israel to consider itself a Jewish State when every country around it considers themselves Islamic countries?

because they're jews.

Oh I see.

 

[Marc39]

And there's been plenty of Palestinians born in that land, and they ALSO have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

No, not really. Most so-called Palestinians are merely Arabs from north Africa and elsewhere in the Middle East who migrated to "Palestine" in the mid-20th century to take advantage of Jewish prosperity.

Two common Pallie surnames are al-Masri [The Egyptian] and Maghrebi [Maghreb, Africa] reflecting their origins.

You're also clueless to the historical fact that your Pallies have been offered statehood going back to 1937 and through at least 2000 by Bill Clinton at Camp David. Each time, Pallies rejected statehood.

So, don't shed any tears for Pallies not having a home. Furthermore, Pallies DO have several homes, such as Jordan, which is mostly Palestinian, and Lebanon and Syria, which "Palestine" had been part of during 400 years of Ottoman rule.

Pallies also have been denied resettlement by their own Arab Muslim brethren in 30 Arab and 60 Islamic countries. In the aftermath of World War II, therewere 150 million refugees and they were all resettled. The world did not create states for those refugees.

 

[jillian]

Why is it wrong for Israel to consider itself a Jewish State when every country around it considers themselves Islamic countries?

because they're jews.

Oh I see.

 

[Marc39]

Why is it wrong for Israel to consider itself a Jewish State when every country around it considers themselves Islamic countries?

Greece is a Greek Orthodox state
England is a Church of England state
Italy is a Catholic state
Switzerland, Sweden and dozens of other countries are Christian states.

 

[High_Gravity]

And there's been plenty of Palestinians born in that land, and they ALSO have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

No, not really. Most so-called Palestinians are merely Arabs from north Africa and elsewhere in the Middle East who migrated to "Palestine" in the mid-20th century to take advantage of Jewish prosperity.

Two common Pallie surnames are al-Masri [The Egyptian] and Maghrebi [Maghreb, Africa] reflecting their origins.

You're also clueless to the historical fact that your Pallies have been offered statehood going back to 1937 and through at least 2000 by Bill Clinton at Camp David. Each time, Pallies rejected statehood.

So, don't shed any tears for Pallies not having a home. Furthermore, Pallies DO have several homes, such as Jordan, which is mostly Palestinian, and Lebanon and Syria, which "Palestine" had been part of during 400 years of Ottoman rule.

Pallies also have been denied resettlement by their own Arab Muslim brethren in 30 Arab and 60 Islamic countries. In the aftermath of World War II, therewere 150 million refugees and they were all resettled. The world did not create states for those refugees.

The Arab countries do not want those refugees, an influx of Palestinians is what caused Lebanons civil war and Kuwait kicked out most of their Palestinians after they aided the Iraqis after they invaded Kuwait, even after Kuwait gave them free housing, schooling, jobs and medical care. Everyone saw how they fucked the Kuwaitis, who would take a chance on these guys now?

 

[georgephillip]

Maybe it's the $7 million taxpayer dollars every day going to Israel that sets the Jews apart?

One third of the population of Mandate Palestine was Jewish in 1948. They owned about 7% of the land. Yet the UN gerrymandered the Green Line in such a way as to give 1/3 of the population 53% of the land.

The reprisals that engendered from both sides continues to pay off today for those who get rich from the War Racket, which is the golden goose for socializing cost and privatizing profit.

 

[Marc39]

Maybe it's the $7 million taxpayer dollars every day going to Israel that sets the Jews apart?

Maybe, you lie. No maybe, actually.

Israel is among the US's largest export markets, last year representing $15 billion in purchases of American products.

No wonder you have zero reputational points.

 

[georgephillip]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

Don't the Muslims who inhabit 99.9% of the Middle East and north Africa claim its sacred Islamic land owned by allah, as stated in the Quran that was created 1400 years ago?

Yah, they do.

Difference is, Jews actually have lived continuously in "Palestine" for 4000 years, unlike Muslims who are interlopers from Arabia.

So What?

4000 years ago Anglo Saxons did not exist in North America.

Does that mean Manhattan reverts to the Lenape?

Or does Jewish mythology trump that of Native Americans?

 

[Marc39]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

Don't the Muslims who inhabit 99.9% of the Middle East and north Africa claim its sacred Islamic land owned by allah, as stated in the Quran that was created 1400 years ago?

Yah, they do.

Difference is, Jews actually have lived continuously in "Palestine" for 4000 years, unlike Muslims who are interlopers from Arabia.

So What?

4000 years ago Anglo Saxons did not exist in North America.

Does that mean Manhattan reverts to the Lenape?

Or does Jewish mythology trump that of Native Americans?

Muslims claim rights to the entire Middle East, north Africa and the whole world based on the Quran invented 1400 years ago.

You wanna close down Mecca and Medina?

Israel exists under international law and the only state in the world with both League of Nations and UN endorsements. Deal with it, loser.

 

[Marc39]

Or does Jewish mythology trump that of Native Americans?

Not mythology, uneducated one. Historical fact. The archaeological record verifies Israel existed at least as far back at 1200 BCE, 3200 years ago. Israel existed not once but twice in antiquity.

Jews ruled over "Palestine" for over 400 years during the Davidic Monarchy. Arabs, less than 90 years during the Umayyad caliphate. That's it.

In contrast, not one Arab country today existed as an independent state prior to World War I.

Your ignorance of the subject matter is reflected in your lack of reputational points.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

I dread posting about the issue of Isreal here because there's so much hatred and malice here that no matter what you say somebody is going to declare you a Jew Hater or a terrorist lover or something,

But that said, George is asking us the right question.

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

I have another question to augment his...

How long does a people have to live on a land before they get clear title to it?

I ask because both the Palestinians and the Jews both have lived on the same land for generations and both claimexclusive title to it.

I mean, don't we all think it reasonable to assume that if you BORN on a land, that you have to right to think of it as your country?

Well there's been plenty of Jews born in Ithat land and they have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

And there's been plenty of Palestinians born in that land, and they ALSO have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

My point here is pretty simple...

history alone cannot help us solve this debate, and neither will it give either side the HIGHER moral ground.


NOBODY has the higher moral ground and nobody here has a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to the land, either.

Sadly, when it comes to GEOPOLTICS, might makes right.

Wishing that wasn't so doesn't change it.

In that respect Israel/Palestine is really no idfferent than any other land on earth.

Good post. However I would like to clarify a point.

I ask because both the Palestinians and the Jews both have lived on the same land for generations and both claim exclusive title to it.

The point is that Palestinians are Muslims, Christians, and Jews. None of them, as a religion, claim exclusive rights to Palestine. As a diverse group they do have exclusive rights to Palestine. They are the indigenous population. An important fact is that none of them, including the Jews, wanted a foreign takeover of their country.

This is not an Arab or Muslim versus Jew conflict. It is a Palestinians versus foreigners conflict. The Palestinians be they Muslims, Christians, or Jews have the legal and moral high ground. Palestine is their country. It does not belong to foreigners.

 

[jillian]

Maybe it's the $7 million taxpayer dollars every day going to Israel that sets the Jews apart?

how many billions of our dollars went to the pals so they'd sit at the bargaining table and pretend to talk peace?

how much money do we pay to the oil rich saudis?

how much to egypt to not blow anyone up?

poor baby... obsessed with one little country the size of new jersey and you don't even know anything about the rest of the world...

or don't care...

which is more likely.

 

[georgephillip]

And without lies you would have little to say...

"Palestinians have continuously resided in Palestine since four thousand years before Christ, Abo-Sak pointed out. Their ancestors built the cities of Jerusalem, Nablus, Jericho, Beisan, Acca and Jaffa.

"The Hebrews arrived in the land between 1400-1200 B.C., and only maintained control over it during the lifetimes of King David and his son King Solomon – a period of about 80 years.

"The land then came under Greek and Roman rule, and was then conquered by Islam in the year 637 A.D. under the second Caliph, Omar. By that time, the Jews had already left Jerusalem, and Christianity was the dominant religion.

"The Caliph granted full security to all Christians, including personal safety, and protection of property, religion and churches.

"The Muslims declared Jerusalem the capital of Palestine, and the city remained under Islamic rule until the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, except for a brief time of Christian rule under the Crusaders."

US Involvement in

 

[Marc39]

And without lies you would have little to say...

"Palestinians have continuously resided in Palestine since four thousand years before Christ, Abo-Sak pointed out.

Utter rubbish. The correct historical geographic name of the land is Canaan and Judea, not Palestine. Palestine has no references in the Hebrew Bible nor in the Christian Bible nor the Quran nor any ancient .historical document

Palestine was invented by the European Romans.

The consensus among historians, archaeologists and ethnologists is so-called Palestinians descended from Arabs originating in the Arabian Peninsula.

Jews lived in Canaan at least far back as 1200 BCE, verified by the archaeological record.

Arabs first invaded Canaan in 638 AD, nearly 2000 years after Jews had arrived.

The theory that Palestinians descended from the Jebusites has no credibility and was invented by Rashid Khalidi, a propagandist for Arafat.

Palestinians didn't exist until Arabs began calling themselves Palestinians in 1967

Jews are the only Palestinians since the Romans invented "Palaestina" to rename Judea 1500 years after Jews lived on the land and 500 years before Arab intruders invaded.

Even Arabs acknowledge Palestinians are a hoax...

Former PLO Leader Zuheir Mohsen...

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

Zuheir Mohsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Arab American Journalist Joe Farah...

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

Myths of the Middle East


Arab Commentator Azmi Bishara...

Well, I dont think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so and I did not change my mind. I do not think there is a Palestinian nation, I think its a colonialist invention - Palestinian nation. When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from? I think there is an Arab nation. I never turned to be a Palestinian nationalist, despite of my decisive struggle against the occupation. I think that until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the south of Greater Syria.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3n5-yG-6dU[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

Israel's Real Original Sin: Racist Rabbis

Good to know the keepers of Israel's moral code continue to make Moses proud:

"Jews must not rent homes to 'gentiles'.

"That was the religious decree issued this week by at least 50 of Israel’s leading rabbis, many of them employed by the state as municipal religious leaders.

"Jews should first warn, then “ostracise” fellow Jews who fail to heed the directive, the rabbis declared...

It gets even better for the "chosen people."

"Its sentiments have also been echoed by Ovadia Yosef, a former chief rabbi of Israel and the spiritual leader of Shas, an important political and religious party in Mr Netanyahu’s government.

"'Selling to [non-Jews], even for a lot of money, is not allowed. We won’t let them take control of us here,' Mr Yosef said recently.

"Two months ago, Mr Yosef explained the logic behind his views and those of like-minded rabbis.

“'Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us.'

"Explaining why God allowed non-Jews long lives, he added: “Imagine that your donkey would die, you’d lose your income. [The donkey] is your servant. …

"That’s why he [the gentile] gets a long life, to work well for the Jew.”

Can't sell or rent "even for a lot of money"?

Maybe Moses would have a problem with that.

 

[Ropey]

Now I understand you George.