The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

I think this is incorrect.

The Mandate, as implemented, was illegal. Taking land from the native inhabitants to give it to European colonists, whatever their religion was, to create a state for said Europeans, ran contrary to the basic tenets of the Covenant of the League of Nations,

(COMMENT)

First the Mandate did not take any land.

The Covenant did not prohibit anything the Allied Powers did. But it would be a Mistake to think that the 1948 establishment of Israel was taken under the authority of the mandate.

The implementation of the Mandate was at the direction of the League of Nations to which the Covenant derives it authority. And the authors may interpret the intent differently form you.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

I think this is incorrect.

The Mandate, as implemented, was illegal. Taking land from the native inhabitants to give it to European colonists, whatever their religion was, to create a state for said Europeans, ran contrary to the basic tenets of the Covenant of the League of Nations,

(COMMENT)

First the Mandate did not take any land.

The Covenant did not prohibit anything the Allied Powers did. But it would be a Mistake to think that the 1948 establishment of Israel was taken under the authority of the mandate.

The implementation of the Mandate was at the direction of the League of Nations to which the Covenant derives it authority. And the authors may interpret the intent differently form you.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Mandate had no authority to give or take any land and it did not. The same for the UN.

The Mandate did, however, create/allow the the great disproportion of power that allowed the Zionist military free hand to move across Palestine expelling virtually unarmed civilians. It was a cake walk.

The implementation of the Mandate was at the direction of the League of Nations...​

Indeed, and what a disaster it was!

Interpret that.

 

[Shusha]

The Mandate, as implemented, was illegal. Taking land from the native inhabitants to give it to European colonists, whatever their religion was, to create a state for said Europeans, ran contrary to the basic tenets of the Covenant of the League of Nations, under whose authority the Mandates were created. The Mandates were created for the benefit of the inhabitants of the territories of the former Axis powers. 95% of the native inhabitants of Palestine were Muslims and Christians in 1921. The Jews were European settlers. Instead of benefiting from the Mandate, the native inhabitants were dispossessed.

The Mandates were created for the benefit of the inhabitants of the territories. One of those groups of inhabitants were the Jewish people. It really is that simple. There is no legal or moral reason whatsoever that the Jewish people should be the only group of inhabitants who must be prevented from having a national self-determination.

There were hardly any Jews in the area, less than 5% of the population.. Of the few Jews that were there most were recent arrivals from Europe. Not native inhabitants.There was no legal or moral reason that 5% of the population most of which was not native to the area should be given a separate state while 95% of the population should have been evicted and dispossessed.

Do you apply that same test of "nativeness" to Palestinians? How can you tell which Palestinians are natives? How recent does one's families arrival in the territories have to be in order to be considered non-native?

Is your test related to majority populations? Are you arguing that only the majority population has the right to self-determination in a territory? Or do you offer consideration to minorities?

When determining ratios of populations, do you consider size of territory? If the Jewish people have a large community in, say, Jerusalem, would they have the right to self-determination in Jerusalem?

Finally, if the cause of the low population of people or the cause of the lack of nativeness is ethnic cleansing, would you consider that a valid way of preventing self-determination for a peoples? Should a peoples have the right of return to a place they have been ethnically cleansed from?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Mandate, as implemented, was illegal. Taking land from the native inhabitants to give it to European colonists, whatever their religion was, to create a state for said Europeans, ran contrary to the basic tenets of the Covenant of the League of Nations, under whose authority the Mandates were created. The Mandates were created for the benefit of the inhabitants of the territories of the former Axis powers. 95% of the native inhabitants of Palestine were Muslims and Christians in 1921. The Jews were European settlers. Instead of benefiting from the Mandate, the native inhabitants were dispossessed.

The Mandates were created for the benefit of the inhabitants of the territories. One of those groups of inhabitants were the Jewish people. It really is that simple. There is no legal or moral reason whatsoever that the Jewish people should be the only group of inhabitants who must be prevented from having a national self-determination.

There were hardly any Jews in the area, less than 5% of the population.. Of the few Jews that were there most were recent arrivals from Europe. Not native inhabitants.There was no legal or moral reason that 5% of the population most of which was not native to the area should be given a separate state while 95% of the population should have been evicted and dispossessed.

Do you apply that same test of "nativeness" to Palestinians? How can you tell which Palestinians are natives? How recent does one's families arrival in the territories have to be in order to be considered non-native?

Is your test related to majority populations? Are you arguing that only the majority population has the right to self-determination in a territory? Or do you offer consideration to minorities?

When determining ratios of populations, do you consider size of territory? If the Jewish people have a large community in, say, Jerusalem, would they have the right to self-determination in Jerusalem?

Finally, if the cause of the low population of people or the cause of the lack of nativeness is ethnic cleansing, would you consider that a valid way of preventing self-determination for a peoples? Should a peoples have the right of return to a place they have been ethnically cleansed from?

You people are getting off on many tangents. That question was answered long ago.
----------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

----------------------------
Race, religion, length of time in the country are all irrelevant. The same citizenship was applied to all.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And you don't seem to know what "Palestinian" means in "Palestinian Citizenship."

It does not mean you have your own little country; or are a citizen of your own little country.

You people are getting off on many tangents. That question was answered long ago.
----------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

----------------------------
Race, religion, length of time in the country are all irrelevant. The same citizenship was applied to all.

(COMMENT)

Palestinian was not, under the Ottoman Empire, and was not, after the Ottoman Empire, its own nationality.

It means that the habitual residents, in the territory to which the mandate applies, shall become citizens of the government appointed by the Mandate.

Palestine, used in this scene, is defined by the Order in Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And you don't seem to know what "Palestinian" means in "Palestinian Citizenship."

It does not mean you have your own little country; or are a citizen of your own little country.

You people are getting off on many tangents. That question was answered long ago.
----------------------------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

----------------------------
Race, religion, length of time in the country are all irrelevant. The same citizenship was applied to all.

(COMMENT)

Palestinian was not, under the Ottoman Empire, and was not, after the Ottoman Empire, its own nationality.

It means that the habitual residents, in the territory to which the mandate applies, shall become citizens of the government appointed by the Mandate.

Palestine, used in this scene, is defined by the Order in Council.

Most Respectfully,
R

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You've been given this so many times.

Link?

(LINK)

PART I.

PRELIMINARY.
Title. 1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• 
  The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You've been given this so many times.

Link?

(LINK)

PART I.

PRELIMINARY.
Title. 1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• 
  The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

That was 1922. Palestine did not exist until 1924.

 

[montelatici]

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

If you read this, you will see that it is issued by the British High Commissioner.

• 
  "The High Commissioner" shall include every person for the time being administering the Government of Palestine.

Palestine Order in Council (1922).

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

View attachment 57526

(COMMENT)

The Government of Palestine was that established by the Palestine Order in Council; and not the habitually resident in the territory of Palestine.

This Citizenship Paper is a work product of the Mandatory selected by the Allied Powers to the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by the Allied Powers.

I doubt -- whether but a very few -- Arab Palestinians had anything to do with Certification.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

You have a habit of ignoring fact, written in plain English. Even when the original source document is presented. The question is, why bother responding to a pathological bullshitter?

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

In 1925, who was the "Government of Palestine"?

You have a habit of ignoring fact, written in plain English. Even when the original source document is presented. The question is, why bother responding to a pathological bullshitter?

View attachment 57533

(COMMENT)

Well it cannot be the Arab Palestinians. They declined to participate in programs and processes leading to self-government.

The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory Power headed by the High Commissioner.

"The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• "The High Commissioner" shall include every person for the time being administering the Government of Palestine.

1.Q. What measures have been taken to place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the national home of the Jewish people? What are the effects of these measures?

REPORT
BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT
TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS
ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF
PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN
FOR THE YEAR
1925

SECTION III.
QUESTIONNAIRE OF PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION,
WITH BRIEF REPLIES.
I.--JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.​

A. The direction and objects of the policy of the Government of Palestine in law, administration and finance are unchanged. The visible results of the policy have been tranquillity, increased Jewish immigration, progress of Jewish agricultural settlement. The expansion of industry has been encouraged by the grant of exemption of certain raw materials from import duty (see [pages ] of this Report).

The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
​

III.--JEWISH AGENCY.​

1.Q. When and in what manner has the Jewish Agency been officially recognized?

A. There is nothing to add to the reply in the Report for 1923.
​

2.Q. Has this Agency given any advice to the Administration in the past year? If so, in what form and in what connection?

A. The Palestine Committee of the Agency (Palestine Zionist Executive) and the Head Office of the Zionist Organization have been given special opportunity of expressing their views on the draft Passport and Immigration Ordinances and Regulations as well as on questions affecting the organization of the Jewish Community which are still engaging the attention of the Government of Palestine.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

What part of the following sentence do you not understand:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

The Christians and Muslims were Turkish subjects, most the Jews were citizens of various European nations.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

And just what part of this do't you understand.

PART I.

PRELIMINARY.
Title. 1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

What part of the following sentence do you not understand:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

The Christians and Muslims were Turkish subjects, most the Jews were citizens of various European nations.

(COMMENT)

There was no Arab-Palestinian controlled territory called Palestine. The Palestine mentioned in the Citizenship Order is that of the territory covered by the mandate; governed by the High Commissioner.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Again, what do you not understand with respect to the following statement:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

 

[Shusha]

Again, what do you not understand with respect to the following statement:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

They ceased to be citizens of Turkey and became citizens of the Mandate for Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al

What is a "Palestinian Citizen?"

Again, what do you not understand with respect to the following statement:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

What does Palestine mean?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

As stated, the territory of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, what do you not understand with respect to the following statement:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

They ceased to be citizens of Turkey and became citizens of the Mandate for Palestine.

With regard to nationality of the inhabitants of mandated territories, in general, the Council of the League of Nations adopted the following resolution on 23 April 1923:

“(1) The status of the native inhabitants of a Mandated territory is distinct from that of the nationals of the Mandatory Power....
(2) The native inhabitants of a Mandated territory are not invested with the nationality of the Mandatory Power by means of the protection extended to them…”92​

 

[Shusha]

Again, what do you not understand with respect to the following statement:

"Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

They ceased to be citizens of Turkey and became citizens of the Mandate for Palestine.

With regard to nationality of the inhabitants of mandated territories, in general, the Council of the League of Nations adopted the following resolution on 23 April 1923:

“(1) The status of the native inhabitants of a Mandated territory is distinct from that of the nationals of the Mandatory Power....
(2) The native inhabitants of a Mandated territory are not invested with the nationality of the Mandatory Power by means of the protection extended to them…”92​

So the formerly Turkish citizens were definitely not British. Not sure why you would bring this up.