The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[BlackSand]

So I guess that the majority of US citizens living in America "of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years" are the indigenous people?

Funny after 500 years they don't even call themselves 'natives', everyone knows who are Native Indigenous Americans,.

With Jews in Judea this question all of a sudden becomes 'hard to answer' for many people....

My ancestors have lived here since before there was an United States of America ...
That's about as native American as you can get.

.​

.​

 

[Sixties Fan]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

 

[Coyote]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

Again, you are neither Sephardi, nor Mizrahi, as some of us on the threads are.

Arabization is not the same as Being an indigenous Arab.

What it is, is assimilating some of the Arab culture, just as so many assimilate the American culture, or British culture, and become Americanized, or Anglophile.

Please, teach me how I am an Arab.

 

[Coyote]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

Again, you are neither Sephardi, nor Mizrahi, as some of us on the threads are.

Arabization is not the same as Being an indigenous Arab.

What it is, is assimilating some of the Arab culture, just as so many assimilate the American culture, or British culture, and become Americanized, or Anglophile.

Please, teach me how I am an Arab.

And just as the Palestinians assimilated Arab culture.

I don’t much care what you are other than a fellow human being, something that is frequently lost here in this frenzy to label people. The Palestinians are not indiginous Arabs, something basic genetics shows, like many cultures in the Arab World they are the descendants of prior people’s including Jews that were culturally Arabitized. That doesn’t transform them into Arab invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

Again, you are neither Sephardi, nor Mizrahi, as some of us on the threads are.

Arabization is not the same as Being an indigenous Arab.

What it is, is assimilating some of the Arab culture, just as so many assimilate the American culture, or British culture, and become Americanized, or Anglophile.

Please, teach me how I am an Arab.

And just as the Palestinians assimilated Arab culture.

I don’t much care what you are other than a fellow human being, something that is frequently lost here in this frenzy to label people. The Palestinians are not indiginous Arabs, something basic genetics shows, like many cultures in the Arab World they are the descendants of prior people’s including Jews that were culturally Arabitized. That doesn’t transform them into Arab invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

You get an F in history and Genetics.

And that shall be the last of my posts on this subject with anyone who does not know what they are talking about when it comes to
"Palestinians".

Thank you for the very illuminating discussion.

 

[Coyote]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

Again, you are neither Sephardi, nor Mizrahi, as some of us on the threads are.

Arabization is not the same as Being an indigenous Arab.

What it is, is assimilating some of the Arab culture, just as so many assimilate the American culture, or British culture, and become Americanized, or Anglophile.

Please, teach me how I am an Arab.

And just as the Palestinians assimilated Arab culture.

I don’t much care what you are other than a fellow human being, something that is frequently lost here in this frenzy to label people. The Palestinians are not indiginous Arabs, something basic genetics shows, like many cultures in the Arab World they are the descendants of prior people’s including Jews that were culturally Arabitized. That doesn’t transform them into Arab invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

You get an F in history and Genetics.

And that shall be the last of my posts on this subject with anyone who does not know what they are talking about when it comes to
"Palestinians".

Thank you for the very illuminating discussion.

You have yet to provide any information on genetics or ancient history, just insults.

Again I would ask why is it so important to you to deny Palestinians their history and secondly, what makes YOU any different from those denying Jews there history?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Mizrahi Jews | people


Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews | My Jewish Learning



But then, one can always go with Al Jazerra, which defines the Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab conquered lands, long before the Arabs came to those lands, as "Arabs".

Invention of the Mizrahim

Again you don’t understand what Arab means. Look up Arabization.

Again, you are neither Sephardi, nor Mizrahi, as some of us on the threads are.

Arabization is not the same as Being an indigenous Arab.

What it is, is assimilating some of the Arab culture, just as so many assimilate the American culture, or British culture, and become Americanized, or Anglophile.

Please, teach me how I am an Arab.

And just as the Palestinians assimilated Arab culture.

I don’t much care what you are other than a fellow human being, something that is frequently lost here in this frenzy to label people. The Palestinians are not indiginous Arabs, something basic genetics shows, like many cultures in the Arab World they are the descendants of prior people’s including Jews that were culturally Arabitized. That doesn’t transform them into Arab invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

You get an F in history and Genetics.

And that shall be the last of my posts on this subject with anyone who does not know what they are talking about when it comes to
"Palestinians".

Thank you for the very illuminating discussion.

You have yet to provide any information on genetics or ancient history, just insults.

Again I would ask why is it so important to you to deny Palestinians their history and secondly, what makes YOU any different from those denying Jews there history?

I asked you for the links to where you got your genetic studies, twice. Where are they?

You keep asking the wrong questions. Questions designed, without your knowledge, to delegitimize Jewish History, genetics and everything else.

Something which never happened BEFORE the Jews managed to succeed in recreating their National Homeland.

You, if not others, are repeatedly told that the term "Palestinians" was never used before the Mandate for Palestine. It does not matter.

You, and others, are told that the only ones who actually used the term Palestine during the Mandate were the Jews who were building their infrastructure to create their State.
Palestine Post (Jerusalem Post)
Palestine Symphony (Israel Symphony), so on and so forth.

Muslims/Arabs did not use that term at all. Never cared for it.
Muslims wanted to be part of Syria, so that the whole region would be a PanArab Caliphate, once the Ottoman Empire resolved.

Which is why some always fought about the creation of a sovereign Jewish State on the Jewish Ancient homeland.

We do NOT deny that there have been Arab Muslims and Christians living on the land since the 7th Century, or that the majority of Arab Muslims came to the Region sometimes called Palestine between the end of the 19th century and 1948.

They were NOT called Palestinians then. NO ONE was called a Palestinian back then, and the Palestinians you and others are now calling Palestinians as a nationality, only became one under the idea Arafat and the KGB had in Moscow in 1964.
-----------------------------------

When it comes to the Arab narrative and the name "Palestine," and "Palestinians," there's more than enough "truth" that can be proven to be untrue. For example, if you ask what and where is "Palestine," virtually every enemy of Israel, including Mahmoud Abbas, will tell you it includes the entire land area which the rest of the world calls Israel.

• 
  In fact, "Palestine" refers to a coastal section of land in the area of today's Gaza Strip that was inhabited by the ancient Philistines who were not native to Israel or the region. Most scholars believe they migrated from Greece or Crete. The ancient Philistines were enemies of Israel. The biblical giant Goliath, whom King David slew, was a Philistine.
  
  
  The name "Palestine" is from the Latin name "Philistia." It came to be known as such after the unsuccessful Jewish revolt led by Bar Kochba in 135 AD.
  
  
  
  Then Roman Emperor Hadrian, in an effort to wipe out any symbols of Jewish presence, renamed the Kingdom of Judea Philistia He did this specifically to insult the Jews, since the Philistines were their enemies.
  
  For the record, there isn’t, nor has there ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine.
  
  Truth routinely sacrificed
  As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."
  
  
  Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.
  
  So where does the name "Palestinian" come from? Many will tell you the champion of this remaking of the Arab image is the late Yasser Arafat. He founded the "Palestine" Liberation Organization PLO in 1964 and began using the term "Palestinian" in order to legitimize his effort to portray the "displaced" Arabs from the 1948 War of Independence as unique with an ethnicity and culture of their own. His effort was motivated by the intentional refusal of surrounding Arab countries to absorb them. It is these people who eventually became known as "Palestinian refugees."
  
  
  Another reason for inventing the term is well described by then-PLO Executive Committee member Zahir Muhsein. In a 1977 interview, he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality there is no difference between Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for our political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since the Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people,’ to oppose Zionism.”

As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."

Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.

(full article online)

The truth about Palestine

-------------------
Some Arab Muslims will tell the truth.
But who is bothering to listen to them?

 

[toobfreak]

Who is indigenous to the Palestinian region? That is a loaded question just by calling it Palestine. 2500 years ago, it was all part of the greater Persian Empire. In the days of Christ, it was part of the Roman Empire. Then it came under Alexander the Great. Then is was controlled by the Ptolemic Empire. Finally by 100BC, it came to be ruled as Judea.

Judea is the modern-day name of the mountainous southern part of Canaan-Israel. The name originates from the Hebrew name "Yehudah", a son of the Jewish patriarch Jacob/Israel, and Yehudah's progeny forming the biblical Israelite tribe of Judah (Yehudah) and later the associated Kingdom of Judah, which the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia dates from 934 until 586 BCE. The name of the region continued to be incorporated through the Babylonian conquest, Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman periods as Yehud, Yehud Medinata, Hasmonean Judea, and consequently Herodian Judea and Roman Judea, respectively.

As a consequence of the Bar Kokhba revolt, in 135 CE the region was renamed and merged with Roman Syria to form Syria Palaestina by the victorious Roman Emperor Hadrian. A large part of Judea was included in Jordanian West Bank between 1948 and 1967 (i.e., the "West Bank" of the Kingdom of Jordan). The term Judea as a geographical term was revived by the Israeli government in the 20th century as part of the Israeli administrative district name Judea and Samaria Area for the territory generally referred to as the West Bank.

The early history of Judah is uncertain; the Biblical account states that the Kingdom of Judah, along with the Northern Kingdom, was a successor to a united Kingdom of Israel, but modern scholarship generally holds that the united monarchy is ahistorical. Regardless, the Northern Kingdom was conquered into the Neo-Assyrian Empire in 720 BCE. The Kingdom of Judah remained nominally independent, but paid tribute to the Assyrian Empire from 715 and throughout the first half of the 7th century BCE, regaining its independence as the Assyrian Empire declined after 640 BCE, but after 609 again fell under the sway of imperial rule, this time paying tribute at first to the Egyptians and after 601 BCE to the Neo-Babylonian Empire, until 586 BCE, when it was finally conquered by Babylonia. Judea is central to much of the narrative of the Torah, with the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said to have been buried at Hebron in the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

So today, the question of who is "indigenous" to the region as a matter of being heir as rightful owners is both impossible and irrelevant. It is a matter much like most of historical geography as a matter of who has the upper hand in claiming control of the region. And that would be the Jews. If they wanted, they could take all of Judea-Caanan tomorrow and obliterate the Arabs. The UN offered an amicable settlement in 1947 that would have resolved the matter and left the Palestinians with 10X the land they hold today, and they DECLINED. The Palestinians haven't the power to hold the land they have even now and survive at the willful discretion of the Israeli people who bow to international pressure to tolerate them even under constant threat and violence.

 

[Coyote]

I asked you for the links to where you got your genetic studies, twice. Where are they?

I missed that request, here are some links describing some studies, I don't you can claim they are biased or pro-arab:

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

This one is more recent and interiguing and is on sequencing the Canaanite genome and it's similarities to today's Lebanese (who genetically overlap with Palestinians). Living Descendants of Biblical Canaanites Identified Via DNA

Not genetic, but historically, Wikipedia has this to say: Palestinians - Wikipedia

While Palestinian culture is primarily Arab and Islamic, many Palestinians identify with earlier civilizations that inhabited the land of Palestine.[138] According to Walid Khalidi, in Ottoman times "the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial."

Similarly Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, argues:

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland: Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity—albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."[138]

George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening:

"The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' [in Palestine] denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."[139]

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine, where the population was transformed by such events as the Jewish rebellion against Rome and its suppression, the Arab conquest, the coming and going of the Crusaders, the devastation and resettlement of the coastlands by the Mamluk and Turkish regimes, and, from the nineteenth century, by extensive migrations from both within and from outside the region. Through invasion and deportation, and successive changes of rule and of culture, the face of the Palestinian population changed several times. No doubt, the original inhabitants were never entirely obliterated, but in the course of time they were successively Judaized, Christianized, and Islamized. Their language was transformed to Hebrew, then to Aramaic, then to Arabic."[140]​

Here is one I linked to earlier in this thread, he is a Jewish Israeli scientist and his ideas are intriguing because he looks at cultural similarities:
Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?

Do the Palestinians have Jewish roots? The question may sound fanciful. But not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap.

Among those who have researched the topic is Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.


According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.


While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.​

What I don't understand is how you can claim that the Palestinians - a hodge podge of Muslims, Christians, Druze, are all descended soley from Arab conquerers. That would be a direct contradiction to the normal run of conquests historically - invaders invade, conquer, religious conversions occur either by choice or force, some settle and intermarry, the rest move on to new conquests leaving behind their culture, language, laws and of course taxation. You seem to be saying that everyone in the Palestine region, who is not Jewish, is entirely a descendent of invaders and your links supporting it seem not to say much about ancient history but more about what the modern rise of a Palestinian national identity which is a bit different and is a modern identity.

You keep asking the wrong questions. Questions designed, without your knowledge, to delegitimize Jewish History, genetics and everything else.

No, I don't think I am, nor do I think I am in any way delegitimizing Jewish history or genetics. Rather, I think that you, in the process...are deligitimizing the Palestinians. Is there room for only ONE history? ONE people? ONE narrative?

Something which never happened BEFORE the Jews managed to succeed in recreating their National Homeland.

You, if not others, are repeatedly told that the term "Palestinians" was never used before the Mandate for Palestine. It does not matter.

You, and others, are told that the only ones who actually used the term Palestine during the Mandate were the Jews who were building their infrastructure to create their State.
Palestine Post (Jerusalem Post)
Palestine Symphony (Israel Symphony), so on and so forth.

I really don't care what you say I am "repeatedly told" - that comes off as frankly arrogant and ignorant and has little to do with the ancient history of place and people there, but rather with the more modern history and semantics.

Muslims/Arabs did not use that term at all. Never cared for it.
Muslims wanted to be part of Syria, so that the whole region would be a PanArab Caliphate, once the Ottoman Empire resolved.

And that has what to do with the history and heritage of the people of that region?

Which is why some always fought about the creation of a sovereign Jewish State on the Jewish Ancient homeland.

We do NOT deny that there have been Arab Muslims and Christians living on the land since the 7th Century, or that the majority of Arab Muslims came to the Region sometimes called Palestine between the end of the 19th century and 1948.

No. You are more subtle then that. You deny them an existence prior to the 7th century and you deny them their heritage from the older people's of that region and worse, you claim the majority didn't even come until the end of the 19th century, a claim that is not well supported other than from the pro-Israeli narratives. In fact, the exact populations and immigrations are difficult to determine but it was certainly not an empty land.

They were NOT called Palestinians then. NO ONE was called a Palestinian back then, and the Palestinians you and others are now calling Palestinians as a nationality, only became one under the idea Arafat and the KGB had in Moscow in 1964.
-----------------------------------

When it comes to the Arab narrative and the name "Palestine," and "Palestinians," there's more than enough "truth" that can be proven to be untrue. For example, if you ask what and where is "Palestine," virtually every enemy of Israel, including Mahmoud Abbas, will tell you it includes the entire land area which the rest of the world calls Israel.

• 
  In fact, "Palestine" refers to a coastal section of land in the area of today's Gaza Strip that was inhabited by the ancient Philistines who were not native to Israel or the region. Most scholars believe they migrated from Greece or Crete. The ancient Philistines were enemies of Israel. The biblical giant Goliath, whom King David slew, was a Philistine.
  
  
  The name "Palestine" is from the Latin name "Philistia." It came to be known as such after the unsuccessful Jewish revolt led by Bar Kochba in 135 AD.
  
  
  
  Then Roman Emperor Hadrian, in an effort to wipe out any symbols of Jewish presence, renamed the Kingdom of Judea Philistia He did this specifically to insult the Jews, since the Philistines were their enemies.
  
  For the record, there isn’t, nor has there ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine.
  
  Truth routinely sacrificed
  As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."
  
  
  Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.
  
  So where does the name "Palestinian" come from? Many will tell you the champion of this remaking of the Arab image is the late Yasser Arafat. He founded the "Palestine" Liberation Organization PLO in 1964 and began using the term "Palestinian" in order to legitimize his effort to portray the "displaced" Arabs from the 1948 War of Independence as unique with an ethnicity and culture of their own. His effort was motivated by the intentional refusal of surrounding Arab countries to absorb them. It is these people who eventually became known as "Palestinian refugees."
  
  
  Another reason for inventing the term is well described by then-PLO Executive Committee member Zahir Muhsein. In a 1977 interview, he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality there is no difference between Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for our political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since the Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people,’ to oppose Zionism.”

As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."

Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.

(full article online)

The truth about Palestine

-------------------
Some Arab Muslims will tell the truth.
But who is bothering to listen to them?

So? You are arguing NAMES, I am arguing PEOPLE. No one is denying that the advent of a Palestinian national identity is relatively recent. The people however, go back much further.

Though I don't suppose you will bother to listen to the Jewish scholars who point that out will you?



Why is it so important to you to dispossess the Palestinians?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I asked you for the links to where you got your genetic studies, twice. Where are they?

I missed that request, here are some links describing some studies, I don't you can claim they are biased or pro-arab:

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

This one is more recent and interiguing and is on sequencing the Canaanite genome and it's similarities to today's Lebanese (who genetically overlap with Palestinians). Living Descendants of Biblical Canaanites Identified Via DNA

Not genetic, but historically, Wikipedia has this to say: Palestinians - Wikipedia

While Palestinian culture is primarily Arab and Islamic, many Palestinians identify with earlier civilizations that inhabited the land of Palestine.[138] According to Walid Khalidi, in Ottoman times "the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial."

Similarly Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, argues:

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland: Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity—albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."[138]

George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening:

"The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' [in Palestine] denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."[139]

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine, where the population was transformed by such events as the Jewish rebellion against Rome and its suppression, the Arab conquest, the coming and going of the Crusaders, the devastation and resettlement of the coastlands by the Mamluk and Turkish regimes, and, from the nineteenth century, by extensive migrations from both within and from outside the region. Through invasion and deportation, and successive changes of rule and of culture, the face of the Palestinian population changed several times. No doubt, the original inhabitants were never entirely obliterated, but in the course of time they were successively Judaized, Christianized, and Islamized. Their language was transformed to Hebrew, then to Aramaic, then to Arabic."[140]​

Here is one I linked to earlier in this thread, he is a Jewish Israeli scientist and his ideas are intriguing because he looks at cultural similarities:
Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?

Do the Palestinians have Jewish roots? The question may sound fanciful. But not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap.

Among those who have researched the topic is Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.


According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.


While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.​

What I don't understand is how you can claim that the Palestinians - a hodge podge of Muslims, Christians, Druze, are all descended soley from Arab conquerers. That would be a direct contradiction to the normal run of conquests historically - invaders invade, conquer, religious conversions occur either by choice or force, some settle and intermarry, the rest move on to new conquests leaving behind their culture, language, laws and of course taxation. You seem to be saying that everyone in the Palestine region, who is not Jewish, is entirely a descendent of invaders and your links supporting it seem not to say much about ancient history but more about what the modern rise of a Palestinian national identity which is a bit different and is a modern identity.

You keep asking the wrong questions. Questions designed, without your knowledge, to delegitimize Jewish History, genetics and everything else.

No, I don't think I am, nor do I think I am in any way delegitimizing Jewish history or genetics. Rather, I think that you, in the process...are deligitimizing the Palestinians. Is there room for only ONE history? ONE people? ONE narrative?

Something which never happened BEFORE the Jews managed to succeed in recreating their National Homeland.

You, if not others, are repeatedly told that the term "Palestinians" was never used before the Mandate for Palestine. It does not matter.

You, and others, are told that the only ones who actually used the term Palestine during the Mandate were the Jews who were building their infrastructure to create their State.
Palestine Post (Jerusalem Post)
Palestine Symphony (Israel Symphony), so on and so forth.

I really don't care what you say I am "repeatedly told" - that comes off as frankly arrogant and ignorant and has little to do with the ancient history of place and people there, but rather with the more modern history and semantics.

Muslims/Arabs did not use that term at all. Never cared for it.
Muslims wanted to be part of Syria, so that the whole region would be a PanArab Caliphate, once the Ottoman Empire resolved.

And that has what to do with the history and heritage of the people of that region?

Which is why some always fought about the creation of a sovereign Jewish State on the Jewish Ancient homeland.

We do NOT deny that there have been Arab Muslims and Christians living on the land since the 7th Century, or that the majority of Arab Muslims came to the Region sometimes called Palestine between the end of the 19th century and 1948.

No. You are more subtle then that. You deny them an existence prior to the 7th century and you deny them their heritage from the older people's of that region and worse, you claim the majority didn't even come until the end of the 19th century, a claim that is not well supported other than from the pro-Israeli narratives. In fact, the exact populations and immigrations are difficult to determine but it was certainly not an empty land.

They were NOT called Palestinians then. NO ONE was called a Palestinian back then, and the Palestinians you and others are now calling Palestinians as a nationality, only became one under the idea Arafat and the KGB had in Moscow in 1964.
-----------------------------------

When it comes to the Arab narrative and the name "Palestine," and "Palestinians," there's more than enough "truth" that can be proven to be untrue. For example, if you ask what and where is "Palestine," virtually every enemy of Israel, including Mahmoud Abbas, will tell you it includes the entire land area which the rest of the world calls Israel.

• 
  In fact, "Palestine" refers to a coastal section of land in the area of today's Gaza Strip that was inhabited by the ancient Philistines who were not native to Israel or the region. Most scholars believe they migrated from Greece or Crete. The ancient Philistines were enemies of Israel. The biblical giant Goliath, whom King David slew, was a Philistine.
  
  
  The name "Palestine" is from the Latin name "Philistia." It came to be known as such after the unsuccessful Jewish revolt led by Bar Kochba in 135 AD.
  
  
  
  Then Roman Emperor Hadrian, in an effort to wipe out any symbols of Jewish presence, renamed the Kingdom of Judea Philistia He did this specifically to insult the Jews, since the Philistines were their enemies.
  
  For the record, there isn’t, nor has there ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine.
  
  Truth routinely sacrificed
  As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."
  
  
  Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.
  
  So where does the name "Palestinian" come from? Many will tell you the champion of this remaking of the Arab image is the late Yasser Arafat. He founded the "Palestine" Liberation Organization PLO in 1964 and began using the term "Palestinian" in order to legitimize his effort to portray the "displaced" Arabs from the 1948 War of Independence as unique with an ethnicity and culture of their own. His effort was motivated by the intentional refusal of surrounding Arab countries to absorb them. It is these people who eventually became known as "Palestinian refugees."
  
  
  Another reason for inventing the term is well described by then-PLO Executive Committee member Zahir Muhsein. In a 1977 interview, he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality there is no difference between Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for our political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since the Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people,’ to oppose Zionism.”

As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."

Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.

(full article online)

The truth about Palestine

-------------------
Some Arab Muslims will tell the truth.
But who is bothering to listen to them?

So? You are arguing NAMES, I am arguing PEOPLE. No one is denying that the advent of a Palestinian national identity is relatively recent. The people however, go back much further.

Though I don't suppose you will bother to listen to the Jewish scholars who point that out will you?



Why is it so important to you to dispossess the Palestinians?

Excellent post.

As I have posted before, Palestine has been invaded, conquered, and occupied many times over the centuries. Many people have come and gone. However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Those are the people who became Palestinians after WWI.

When people call the Palestinians Arabs it is like...no that is not true. It can't be true. History tells us something different.

 

[admonit]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

The intent was unspoken; but understood between key Allied Powers. SHORT ANSWER: No itis not all that clear.

RE The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."

The wording in the mandate "Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country" is not clear enough?

(COMMENT)

A "historic connection" does not mean a contemporary.

If it were a "historical event", I would agree with you. But "connection" is not event, it's rather status in this case. The contemporary connection of the Jewish people to the land was obvious to the authors of the mandate, but it was important to underline the historical connection of Jews to Palestine.

The Hashemites have a much - much closer historic connection (20th Century) to Mecca and Medina" through the Shiehk/King Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca. But that does not mean the House of Saud that currently reigning over Saudi Arabia has some duty to give it back or reconstitute the Kingdom of the Hadjaz.

A historical connection of a whole people to the land and an ancestral connections of a clan/dynasty to the place of its origin are not really comparable things.

"Grounds" (reason) for or practical basis for "reconstitution" (rebuilding the ancient government) is a concept and not an imperative.

What you should have quoted is the plain intent and objective: "adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment (create with some permanency) in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This is only unambiguous to the extent that the phrase → "national home" (in contemporary times) can take many forms.

I replied your assertion: "While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."
My quote showed that these things present in the same statement and thus they are related to each other in the mandate.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

I think that you are reading more than is there; and making a very broad assumption.

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

The intent was unspoken; but understood between key Allied Powers. SHORT ANSWER: No itis not all that clear.

RE The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."

The wording in the mandate "Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country" is not clear enough?

(COMMENT)

A "historic connection" does not mean a contemporary.

If it were a "historical event", I would agree with you. But "connection" is not event, it's rather status in this case. The contemporary connection of the Jewish people to the land was obvious to the authors of the mandate, but it was important to underline the historical connection of Jews to Palestine.

The Hashemites have a much - much closer historic connection (20th Century) to Mecca and Medina" through the Shiehk/King Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca. But that does not mean the House of Saud that currently reigning over Saudi Arabia has some duty to give it back or reconstitute the Kingdom of the Hadjaz.

A historical connection of a whole people to the land and an ancestral connections of a clan/dynasty to the place of its origin are not really comparable things.

"Grounds" (reason) for or practical basis for "reconstitution" (rebuilding the ancient government) is a concept and not an imperative.

What you should have quoted is the plain intent and objective: "adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment (create with some permanency) in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This is only unambiguous to the extent that the phrase → "national home" (in contemporary times) can take many forms.

I replied your assertion: "While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."
My quote showed that these things present in the same statement and thus they are related to each other in the mandate.

(COMMENT)

There are only two sets of Rights mentioned in the Mandate; civil and relgious; excluding the mention of indeterminant right in Articles 13 and 14. Back then (1922), the only other Rights are actually discretionary at the will of the Mandatory (Great Britain).

The only "status" involved is the "political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Without regard to anything you interpret from the Mandate, it has no impact on today's current events. There is not one single word that establishes an obligation or makes a commitment → that is enforceable by the Arab Palestinian. And in the century between the Balfour Declaration and the Middle East of today, the composite community - the politics - and the effect of diplomacy has all evolved → morphing into something different. Even the term "Palestine" has altered (more than a couple of time) significantly since the Order in Council stipulated that: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."

Like I said earlier in the thread → Israel is no more going to surrender any existing territory which the Israelis consider Sovern territory → any more than the Saudi's would surrender any part of the Hajez to the Hashemite King (hypothetical). The "historic connection" recognized so long ago by the Allied Powers merely explains a piece of the reasoning used by the Allied Powers to come to the decision they made. The phrase "Historical Connection" was never meant to be a shaft of twisting contention - or - a pivotal direction made by the Allied Powers; merely an explanation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

"People of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years"

The question isn't that hard to answer ...
What you want to do with the answer may be a little more difficult.

Ooops ...
Pineapple​

.​

​

So I guess that the majority of US citizens living in America "of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years" are the indigenous people?

Funny after 500 years they don't even call themselves 'natives', everyone knows who are Native Indigenous Americans,.

With Jews in Judea this question all of a sudden becomes 'hard to answer' for many people....

It is not hard to answer as she pointed out. Both Jews and Palestinians are indiginous along with other groups.

Why does recognizing that cause such angst to some that they have to invent narratives to marginalize them? Why is it so important to insist they are just Europeans or that they are just descendants of Arab invaders? It is like there can only be One indiginous group.

It a simple answer.

Jewish indigenity is not based on creation of any new identity or narrative, or on denying Arabs their rights based on longstanding presence in the land.
While Palestinian narrative is a creation of a new entity, entirely based on denial of Jewish indigenous rights, and appropriation of other people's history.

One can see this in the use of the term Palestinian, which is used exclusively to refer to Arabs and exclude Jews. So let's call Arabs Arabs and Jews Jews as they do themselves.
Because frankly, You'll find more agreement when calling things as they are, rather than creating new identities for people that don't know what THE WORD even means.

 

[rylah]

So I guess that the majority of US citizens living in America "of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years" are the indigenous people?

Funny after 500 years they don't even call themselves 'natives', everyone knows who are Native Indigenous Americans,.

With Jews in Judea this question all of a sudden becomes 'hard to answer' for many people....

My ancestors have lived here since before there was an United States of America ...
That's about as native American as you can get.

.​

.​

Really, which tribe?

 

[yiostheoy]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

I think that you are reading more than is there; and making a very broad assumption.

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

The intent was unspoken; but understood between key Allied Powers. SHORT ANSWER: No itis not all that clear.

RE The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."

The wording in the mandate "Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country" is not clear enough?

(COMMENT)

A "historic connection" does not mean a contemporary.

If it were a "historical event", I would agree with you. But "connection" is not event, it's rather status in this case. The contemporary connection of the Jewish people to the land was obvious to the authors of the mandate, but it was important to underline the historical connection of Jews to Palestine.

The Hashemites have a much - much closer historic connection (20th Century) to Mecca and Medina" through the Shiehk/King Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca. But that does not mean the House of Saud that currently reigning over Saudi Arabia has some duty to give it back or reconstitute the Kingdom of the Hadjaz.

A historical connection of a whole people to the land and an ancestral connections of a clan/dynasty to the place of its origin are not really comparable things.

"Grounds" (reason) for or practical basis for "reconstitution" (rebuilding the ancient government) is a concept and not an imperative.

What you should have quoted is the plain intent and objective: "adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment (create with some permanency) in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This is only unambiguous to the extent that the phrase → "national home" (in contemporary times) can take many forms.

I replied your assertion: "While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."
My quote showed that these things present in the same statement and thus they are related to each other in the mandate.

(COMMENT)

There are only two sets of Rights mentioned in the Mandate; civil and relgious; excluding the mention of indeterminant right in Articles 13 and 14. Back then (1922), the only other Rights are actually discretionary at the will of the Mandatory (Great Britain).

The only "status" involved is the "political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Without regard to anything you interpret from the Mandate, it has no impact on today's current events. There is not one single word that establishes an obligation or makes a commitment → that is enforceable by the Arab Palestinian. And in the century between the Balfour Declaration and the Middle East of today, the composite community - the politics - and the effect of diplomacy has all evolved → morphing into something different. Even the term "Palestine" has altered (more than a couple of time) significantly since the Order in Council stipulated that: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."

Like I said earlier in the thread → Israel is no more going to surrender any existing territory which the Israelis consider Sovern territory → any more than the Saudi's would surrender any part of the Hajez to the Hashemite King (hypothetical). The "historic connection" recognized so long ago by the Allied Powers merely explains a piece of the reasoning used by the Allied Powers to come to the decision they made. The phrase "Historical Connection" was never meant to be a shaft of twisting contention - or - a pivotal direction made by the Allied Powers; merely an explanation.

Most Respectfully,
R

The British Mandate is not really relevant anymore.

 

[yiostheoy]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ admonit, et al,

The intent was unspoken; but understood between key Allied Powers. SHORT ANSWER: No itis not all that clear.

RE The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."

The wording in the mandate "Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country" is not clear enough?

(COMMENT)

A "historic connection" does not mean a contemporary.

If it were a "historical event", I would agree with you. But "connection" is not event, it's rather status in this case. The contemporary connection of the Jewish people to the land was obvious to the authors of the mandate, but it was important to underline the historical connection of Jews to Palestine.

The Hashemites have a much - much closer historic connection (20th Century) to Mecca and Medina" through the Shiehk/King Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca. But that does not mean the House of Saud that currently reigning over Saudi Arabia has some duty to give it back or reconstitute the Kingdom of the Hadjaz.

A historical connection of a whole people to the land and an ancestral connections of a clan/dynasty to the place of its origin are not really comparable things.

"Grounds" (reason) for or practical basis for "reconstitution" (rebuilding the ancient government) is a concept and not an imperative.

What you should have quoted is the plain intent and objective: "adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment (create with some permanency) in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This is only unambiguous to the extent that the phrase → "national home" (in contemporary times) can take many forms.

I replied your assertion: "While it is clear, very clear, that the Allied Powers did recognize the historic connection, that is not necessarily the same thing as recognizing "existing rights of the Jewish people."
My quote showed that these things present in the same statement and thus they are related to each other in the mandate.

The Balfour Declaration got things rolling but it is not really relevant anymore.

 

[yiostheoy]

I asked you for the links to where you got your genetic studies, twice. Where are they?

I missed that request, here are some links describing some studies, I don't you can claim they are biased or pro-arab:

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

This one is more recent and interiguing and is on sequencing the Canaanite genome and it's similarities to today's Lebanese (who genetically overlap with Palestinians). Living Descendants of Biblical Canaanites Identified Via DNA

Not genetic, but historically, Wikipedia has this to say: Palestinians - Wikipedia

While Palestinian culture is primarily Arab and Islamic, many Palestinians identify with earlier civilizations that inhabited the land of Palestine.[138] According to Walid Khalidi, in Ottoman times "the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial."

Similarly Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, argues:

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland: Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity—albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."[138]

George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening:

"The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' [in Palestine] denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."[139]

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine, where the population was transformed by such events as the Jewish rebellion against Rome and its suppression, the Arab conquest, the coming and going of the Crusaders, the devastation and resettlement of the coastlands by the Mamluk and Turkish regimes, and, from the nineteenth century, by extensive migrations from both within and from outside the region. Through invasion and deportation, and successive changes of rule and of culture, the face of the Palestinian population changed several times. No doubt, the original inhabitants were never entirely obliterated, but in the course of time they were successively Judaized, Christianized, and Islamized. Their language was transformed to Hebrew, then to Aramaic, then to Arabic."[140]​

Here is one I linked to earlier in this thread, he is a Jewish Israeli scientist and his ideas are intriguing because he looks at cultural similarities:
Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?

Do the Palestinians have Jewish roots? The question may sound fanciful. But not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap.

Among those who have researched the topic is Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.


According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.


While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.​

What I don't understand is how you can claim that the Palestinians - a hodge podge of Muslims, Christians, Druze, are all descended soley from Arab conquerers. That would be a direct contradiction to the normal run of conquests historically - invaders invade, conquer, religious conversions occur either by choice or force, some settle and intermarry, the rest move on to new conquests leaving behind their culture, language, laws and of course taxation. You seem to be saying that everyone in the Palestine region, who is not Jewish, is entirely a descendent of invaders and your links supporting it seem not to say much about ancient history but more about what the modern rise of a Palestinian national identity which is a bit different and is a modern identity.

You keep asking the wrong questions. Questions designed, without your knowledge, to delegitimize Jewish History, genetics and everything else.

No, I don't think I am, nor do I think I am in any way delegitimizing Jewish history or genetics. Rather, I think that you, in the process...are deligitimizing the Palestinians. Is there room for only ONE history? ONE people? ONE narrative?

Something which never happened BEFORE the Jews managed to succeed in recreating their National Homeland.

You, if not others, are repeatedly told that the term "Palestinians" was never used before the Mandate for Palestine. It does not matter.

You, and others, are told that the only ones who actually used the term Palestine during the Mandate were the Jews who were building their infrastructure to create their State.
Palestine Post (Jerusalem Post)
Palestine Symphony (Israel Symphony), so on and so forth.

I really don't care what you say I am "repeatedly told" - that comes off as frankly arrogant and ignorant and has little to do with the ancient history of place and people there, but rather with the more modern history and semantics.

Muslims/Arabs did not use that term at all. Never cared for it.
Muslims wanted to be part of Syria, so that the whole region would be a PanArab Caliphate, once the Ottoman Empire resolved.

And that has what to do with the history and heritage of the people of that region?

Which is why some always fought about the creation of a sovereign Jewish State on the Jewish Ancient homeland.

We do NOT deny that there have been Arab Muslims and Christians living on the land since the 7th Century, or that the majority of Arab Muslims came to the Region sometimes called Palestine between the end of the 19th century and 1948.

No. You are more subtle then that. You deny them an existence prior to the 7th century and you deny them their heritage from the older people's of that region and worse, you claim the majority didn't even come until the end of the 19th century, a claim that is not well supported other than from the pro-Israeli narratives. In fact, the exact populations and immigrations are difficult to determine but it was certainly not an empty land.

They were NOT called Palestinians then. NO ONE was called a Palestinian back then, and the Palestinians you and others are now calling Palestinians as a nationality, only became one under the idea Arafat and the KGB had in Moscow in 1964.
-----------------------------------

When it comes to the Arab narrative and the name "Palestine," and "Palestinians," there's more than enough "truth" that can be proven to be untrue. For example, if you ask what and where is "Palestine," virtually every enemy of Israel, including Mahmoud Abbas, will tell you it includes the entire land area which the rest of the world calls Israel.

• 
  In fact, "Palestine" refers to a coastal section of land in the area of today's Gaza Strip that was inhabited by the ancient Philistines who were not native to Israel or the region. Most scholars believe they migrated from Greece or Crete. The ancient Philistines were enemies of Israel. The biblical giant Goliath, whom King David slew, was a Philistine.
  
  
  The name "Palestine" is from the Latin name "Philistia." It came to be known as such after the unsuccessful Jewish revolt led by Bar Kochba in 135 AD.
  
  
  
  Then Roman Emperor Hadrian, in an effort to wipe out any symbols of Jewish presence, renamed the Kingdom of Judea Philistia He did this specifically to insult the Jews, since the Philistines were their enemies.
  
  For the record, there isn’t, nor has there ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine.
  
  Truth routinely sacrificed
  As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."
  
  
  Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.
  
  So where does the name "Palestinian" come from? Many will tell you the champion of this remaking of the Arab image is the late Yasser Arafat. He founded the "Palestine" Liberation Organization PLO in 1964 and began using the term "Palestinian" in order to legitimize his effort to portray the "displaced" Arabs from the 1948 War of Independence as unique with an ethnicity and culture of their own. His effort was motivated by the intentional refusal of surrounding Arab countries to absorb them. It is these people who eventually became known as "Palestinian refugees."
  
  
  Another reason for inventing the term is well described by then-PLO Executive Committee member Zahir Muhsein. In a 1977 interview, he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality there is no difference between Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for our political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since the Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people,’ to oppose Zionism.”

As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."

Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.

(full article online)

The truth about Palestine

-------------------
Some Arab Muslims will tell the truth.
But who is bothering to listen to them?

So? You are arguing NAMES, I am arguing PEOPLE. No one is denying that the advent of a Palestinian national identity is relatively recent. The people however, go back much further.

Though I don't suppose you will bother to listen to the Jewish scholars who point that out will you?



Why is it so important to you to dispossess the Palestinians?

I do not believe the Palestinians (Phillistines) and the Jews have any common ancestry or DNA.

The Philistines were the Sea Peoples that left the Trojan War to pillage ancient Egypt and the Levant.

They are neither Jews nor Semitic.

They are ancient Greek and therefore Indo-European/Aryan.

 

[rylah]

"People of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years"

The question isn't that hard to answer ...
What you want to do with the answer may be a little more difficult.

Ooops ...
Pineapple​

.​

​

So I guess that the majority of US citizens living in America "of various religions, who's ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years" are the indigenous people?

Funny after 500 years they don't even call themselves 'natives', everyone knows who are Native Indigenous Americans,.

With Jews in Judea this question all of a sudden becomes 'hard to answer' for many people....

It is not hard to answer as she pointed out. Both Jews and Palestinians are indiginous along with other groups.

Why doe recognizing that cause such angst to some that they have to invent narratives to marginalize them? Why is it so important to insist they are just Europeans or that they are just descendants of Arab invaders?

Coyote,

Palestinian Arabs are what the word Arab says they are.

ARABS

From Arabia.

Therefore they cannot be indigenous of the ancient Land of Canaan as the Jewish People are.

The Arab extremist cannot accept that the Jews can have their own sovereign land On their own ancient homeland.

Jews have not taken one duma of Arab indigenous land, ever.
All of it is at the hands of the Saudis, Yemenites, UAE, Qatar, and all others who live in the Arabian Peninsula.

The extreme Muslim Arabs are intent is saying that Zionism is a European cause, even though it is not, never has been and the Jews from Europe are NOT Europeans. They came from the land of Israel, ancient Canaan. And simply returned home, those who were away to recreate their Nation.

A Nation the Arab Muslims cannot stand to see that it still exists in Jewish hands.

Arabs are not an exact definition. They are defined by language and culture not blood. It isn’t much different then the English conquests and cultural domination of indiginous populations.

Arabs - Wikipedia

Today, "Arab" refers to a large number of people whose native regions form the Arab world due to the spread of Arabs and the Arabic language throughout the region during the early Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries and the subsequent Arabisation of indigenous populations.[42]

Arabs are a diverse group in terms of religious affiliations and practices. In the pre-Islamic era, most Arabs followed polytheistic religions. Some tribes had adopted Christianity or Judaism, and a few individuals, the hanifs, apparently observed monotheism.[50] Today, Arabs are mostly adherents of Islam, with sizable Christian minorities. [51] Mizrahi Jews, and historically the Sephardi, have an Arab identity. Arab Muslims primarily belong to the Sunni, Shiite, Ibadi, and Alawite denominations. Arab Christians generally follow one of the Eastern Christian Churches, such as the Greek Orthodox or Greek Catholic churches.[52] Other smaller minority religions are also followed, such as the Bahá'í Faith and Druze.

Arabs and Palestinian 'arabized Jews', the indigenous people who never left the land are not called the same by the Arabs themselves, they were always identified separately.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I asked you for the links to where you got your genetic studies, twice. Where are they?

I missed that request, here are some links describing some studies, I don't you can claim they are biased or pro-arab:

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

This one is more recent and interiguing and is on sequencing the Canaanite genome and it's similarities to today's Lebanese (who genetically overlap with Palestinians). Living Descendants of Biblical Canaanites Identified Via DNA

Not genetic, but historically, Wikipedia has this to say: Palestinians - Wikipedia

While Palestinian culture is primarily Arab and Islamic, many Palestinians identify with earlier civilizations that inhabited the land of Palestine.[138] According to Walid Khalidi, in Ottoman times "the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial."

Similarly Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, argues:

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland: Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity—albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."[138]

George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening:

"The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' [in Palestine] denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."[139]

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine, where the population was transformed by such events as the Jewish rebellion against Rome and its suppression, the Arab conquest, the coming and going of the Crusaders, the devastation and resettlement of the coastlands by the Mamluk and Turkish regimes, and, from the nineteenth century, by extensive migrations from both within and from outside the region. Through invasion and deportation, and successive changes of rule and of culture, the face of the Palestinian population changed several times. No doubt, the original inhabitants were never entirely obliterated, but in the course of time they were successively Judaized, Christianized, and Islamized. Their language was transformed to Hebrew, then to Aramaic, then to Arabic."[140]​

Here is one I linked to earlier in this thread, he is a Jewish Israeli scientist and his ideas are intriguing because he looks at cultural similarities:
Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?

Do the Palestinians have Jewish roots? The question may sound fanciful. But not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap.

Among those who have researched the topic is Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.


According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.


While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.​

What I don't understand is how you can claim that the Palestinians - a hodge podge of Muslims, Christians, Druze, are all descended soley from Arab conquerers. That would be a direct contradiction to the normal run of conquests historically - invaders invade, conquer, religious conversions occur either by choice or force, some settle and intermarry, the rest move on to new conquests leaving behind their culture, language, laws and of course taxation. You seem to be saying that everyone in the Palestine region, who is not Jewish, is entirely a descendent of invaders and your links supporting it seem not to say much about ancient history but more about what the modern rise of a Palestinian national identity which is a bit different and is a modern identity.

You keep asking the wrong questions. Questions designed, without your knowledge, to delegitimize Jewish History, genetics and everything else.

No, I don't think I am, nor do I think I am in any way delegitimizing Jewish history or genetics. Rather, I think that you, in the process...are deligitimizing the Palestinians. Is there room for only ONE history? ONE people? ONE narrative?

Something which never happened BEFORE the Jews managed to succeed in recreating their National Homeland.

You, if not others, are repeatedly told that the term "Palestinians" was never used before the Mandate for Palestine. It does not matter.

You, and others, are told that the only ones who actually used the term Palestine during the Mandate were the Jews who were building their infrastructure to create their State.
Palestine Post (Jerusalem Post)
Palestine Symphony (Israel Symphony), so on and so forth.

I really don't care what you say I am "repeatedly told" - that comes off as frankly arrogant and ignorant and has little to do with the ancient history of place and people there, but rather with the more modern history and semantics.

Muslims/Arabs did not use that term at all. Never cared for it.
Muslims wanted to be part of Syria, so that the whole region would be a PanArab Caliphate, once the Ottoman Empire resolved.

And that has what to do with the history and heritage of the people of that region?

Which is why some always fought about the creation of a sovereign Jewish State on the Jewish Ancient homeland.

We do NOT deny that there have been Arab Muslims and Christians living on the land since the 7th Century, or that the majority of Arab Muslims came to the Region sometimes called Palestine between the end of the 19th century and 1948.

No. You are more subtle then that. You deny them an existence prior to the 7th century and you deny them their heritage from the older people's of that region and worse, you claim the majority didn't even come until the end of the 19th century, a claim that is not well supported other than from the pro-Israeli narratives. In fact, the exact populations and immigrations are difficult to determine but it was certainly not an empty land.

They were NOT called Palestinians then. NO ONE was called a Palestinian back then, and the Palestinians you and others are now calling Palestinians as a nationality, only became one under the idea Arafat and the KGB had in Moscow in 1964.
-----------------------------------

When it comes to the Arab narrative and the name "Palestine," and "Palestinians," there's more than enough "truth" that can be proven to be untrue. For example, if you ask what and where is "Palestine," virtually every enemy of Israel, including Mahmoud Abbas, will tell you it includes the entire land area which the rest of the world calls Israel.

• 
  In fact, "Palestine" refers to a coastal section of land in the area of today's Gaza Strip that was inhabited by the ancient Philistines who were not native to Israel or the region. Most scholars believe they migrated from Greece or Crete. The ancient Philistines were enemies of Israel. The biblical giant Goliath, whom King David slew, was a Philistine.
  
  
  The name "Palestine" is from the Latin name "Philistia." It came to be known as such after the unsuccessful Jewish revolt led by Bar Kochba in 135 AD.
  
  
  
  Then Roman Emperor Hadrian, in an effort to wipe out any symbols of Jewish presence, renamed the Kingdom of Judea Philistia He did this specifically to insult the Jews, since the Philistines were their enemies.
  
  For the record, there isn’t, nor has there ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine.
  
  Truth routinely sacrificed
  As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."
  
  
  Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.
  
  So where does the name "Palestinian" come from? Many will tell you the champion of this remaking of the Arab image is the late Yasser Arafat. He founded the "Palestine" Liberation Organization PLO in 1964 and began using the term "Palestinian" in order to legitimize his effort to portray the "displaced" Arabs from the 1948 War of Independence as unique with an ethnicity and culture of their own. His effort was motivated by the intentional refusal of surrounding Arab countries to absorb them. It is these people who eventually became known as "Palestinian refugees."
  
  
  Another reason for inventing the term is well described by then-PLO Executive Committee member Zahir Muhsein. In a 1977 interview, he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality there is no difference between Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for our political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since the Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people,’ to oppose Zionism.”

As recently as the Six-Day War there were no specific people known as "Palestinians."

Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim terrorist who at that time lived in the area that became known as the "West Bank," (another invented term) said "how can I go to bed as a Jordanian one day, and wake up the next day as a Palestinian?" He is referring to the day before and the day after the start of the Six-Day War.

(full article online)

The truth about Palestine

-------------------
Some Arab Muslims will tell the truth.
But who is bothering to listen to them?

So? You are arguing NAMES, I am arguing PEOPLE. No one is denying that the advent of a Palestinian national identity is relatively recent. The people however, go back much further.

Though I don't suppose you will bother to listen to the Jewish scholars who point that out will you?



Why is it so important to you to dispossess the Palestinians?

I do not believe the Palestinians (Phillistines) and the Jews have any common ancestry or DNA.

The Philistines were the Sea Peoples that left the Trojan War to pillage ancient Egypt and the Levant.

They are neither Jews nor Semitic.

They are ancient Greek and therefore Indo-European/Aryan.

What difference does it make?