The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Art__Allm]

To state that the modern day Jews were descended from just 4 females is ludicrous in the extreme.

No, it is hard science, bottle neck effects were common in human history.

The mentioned 4 females are not only the founding mothers of Ashkenazi communities, but also the ancestors of many, many different European ethnic groups.

Sorry, but it seems to me that you have no idea about human evolution and the science, called genetics.

Find one mention of khazaria prior to the second world war in any history books.

Are you kidding, aren't you?

Any historian knew about Khazaria, even ancient historians, there is a big amount of historical documents, Khazaria is not a controversial topic any more.

ALL historians agree that the first Jewish communities in Poland were created by Khazars, it is accepted by ALL historians that the ruling elite of Khazaria converted to Judaism.

There are different opinions about the scope of conversion of the common population in Khazaria (some of Khazars converted to Islam) and about the number of Khazars and "German Jews" who moved to Poland.

Some historians believe that the number of "German Jews" was bigger, which is ridiculous, because only a tiny number of "German Jews" migrated to Poland, and scientists do not believe in "demographic miracles".

You have to explain the sky rocketing fertility rate of "German Jews" (that had a very low fertility in Germany) with a demographic "miracle", but "miracles" is something that works in fairy tales, hard science does not accept miracles.

The most simple explanation is that there was a big number of Khazars in Poland/Lithuania/Ukraine that could not have been counted, because they were semi-nomads.

After the Russian Tsars ordered the "pale of settlement", they could count all nomads and semi-nomads, and that explains the sudden demographic miracle of Ashkenazi Jews.

Solzhenitsyn writes about this phenomenon in his books "200 years together" and supports his claims with documents.

But, unfortunately, these very important books were never translated into English.

 

[Art__Allm]

Israel actually showed considerable restraint compared to most after WWII when it came to forced population transfers.

Because of this "population transfer" (euphemism for ethnic cleansing) the international law was changed to be sure that ethnic cleansing never happen again.

But Israel ignored the international law and deliberately committed crimes.

You have to call a spade a spade, no linguistic acrobatic and no hasbara can deny the obvious facts.

You cannot justify actual crimes with something that happened in the past, before a crime became per definition in the law a crime.

 

[Shusha]

If a Palestinian mother can't have children and her children are adopted, does that mean they have no claim to be "Palestinian"? After all, the adopted children have no "Palestinian blood" or "ethnic markers".

What are you talking about?

Palestinian do not need silly excuses, they can prove that they themselves were expelled from their homeland, and that happened not 2000 years ago, but after 1948. But the very people that were expelled are not permitted to return to their homeland.

Zionists, who admit that they stem from converts, not from people who were presumably expelled from Palestine 2000 years ago, have the chutzpa and lunacy to say that they are "returning" to Palestine.

A guiding principle in the concept of self-determination is that the group self-identifies the members of the group. Outsiders don't get a say.

Can Roman Catholics from South Korea (ethnic Koreans) "return" to Rome, and kick out the native Italians, whose ancestors lived there for hundreds of years, and who are not Catholics any more?

Is the self-identification of some Roman Catholics with a Korean ethnic background more important than the rights of non-religious native Italians to live in Rome?

Are you kidding?

Oh, and eyeroll at the Khazar conspiracy theory. That has been widely and soundly debunked.

Show me any scientific article that debunks the finding of the Israeli scientist and expert in his filed Eran Elhaik.

“All Eurasian Jewish communities are closer to Caucasus populations,” he writes, with Central European Jews closer to Italian non-Jews as the exception. Not one of the eight evaluated Jewish populations were closer to Levant populations.

Highlight: Out of Khazaria—Evidence for “Jewish Genome” Lacking
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

Thank you.

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

The reason you are trying to deny it is to get around a little quandry that comes up with people like you. And that is how to demand the right of return for the Palestinians while denying it to the Jewish people. Most of you attempt to delegitimize the Jewish people by denying their origins (again, foolishness) or to claim that the Jewish people aren't really a people and thus have no rights to a nationality. Its a tired game. And it prolongs the conflict rather than working on a resolution for it.

Khazar theory debunked.

 

[Shusha]

Israel actually showed considerable restraint compared to most after WWII when it came to forced population transfers.

Because of this "population transfer" (euphemism for ethnic cleansing) the international law was changed to be sure that ethnic cleansing never happen again.

But Israel ignored the international law and deliberately committed crimes.

You have to call a spade a spade, no linguistic acrobatic and no hasbara can deny the obvious facts.

You cannot justify actual crimes with something that happened in the past, before a crime became per definition in the law a crime.

If Israel ignored international law and deliberately committed the crime of ethnic cleansing and you are attempting to put it "right", why are you not ALSO demanding that all the other ethnic cleansings which occurred around that time are corrected?

Why are you not demanding that 15 million Germans be returned to their homelands in Eastern and Central Europe? Why are you not demanding that the Latvians, the Estonians and Ukrainians be returned to the Soviet Union? Why are you not demanding that the Japanese be returned to Korea? And for the Turkish and Greek Cypriots be brought back to their homes? Why are you not demanding that Pakistan and India and Bangladesh return all of those uprooted in the ethnic cleansings be returned to their original homes? Along with all their descendants?

Why are you claiming that Israel ignored international law and yet all of these other nations did not?

 

[montelatici]

“When comparing Jewish communities to their non-Jewish neighbors, Caucasus or Levant (Middle Eastern) populations—which is the closest to Jews? “All Eurasian Jewish communities are closer to Caucasus populations,” he writes, with Central European Jews closer to Italian non-Jews as the exception. Not one of the eight evaluated Jewish populations were closer to Levant populations................There is no Jewish genome and certainly no Jewish gene,” says the Israeli-born Elhaik. Instead, all humans are a mix of the same building blocks, built with slightly different architectures. “The confusion about European Jews results from their tragic history of persecutions and deportations, creating multiple links between ancestry and geography. By dismantling our notions of genetically distinct populations and understanding our kinship, we can better appreciate our common history, and more importantly, our shared future.“

Highlight: Out of Khazaria—Evidence for “Jewish Genome” Lacking

 

[Boston1]

Odd how ole Monty keeps posting hasbara on these threads. The simple fact is that Judaic people developed in Judea and have remained their for all of written history.

As apposed to the Arab Muslims who first entered the scene in about the 6th century and didn't colonize Judea until about the 9th century

 

[Challenger]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

Wrong. JUDAISM originated in monotheist cults in the Judean hills. From where the religion spread through proselytisation/conversion to the various ethnicities in the Levant and later along trade routes throughout the Persian, Hellenistic and Roman Empires. There were Judean communities scattered throughout these empires, some of which adopted Judaism, others that did not.

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

Wrong. JUDAISM originated in monotheist cults in the Judean hills. From where the religion spread through proselytisation/conversion to the various ethnicities in the Levant and later along trade routes throughout the Persian, Hellenistic and Roman Empires. There were Judean communities scattered throughout these empires, some of which adopted Judaism, others that did not.

Yes, I know. There is no such thing as a "Jewish people". The Jewish people are the only people in the world who, by any definition of "people" or "culture" or whatever term you want to use, clearly qualify but somehow don't "count". Though you can never come up with a reason for them "not counting". You begin to bore me.

 

[theliq]

No treaty or agreement. That makes the Zionist actions crimes against humanity.

what treaty or agreement moved jews out of iran? out of Russia? out of Belarus?

shut up idiot.

You tell me, I thought they all voluntarily emigrated to the "Zionist Paradise" because the USSR was "anti-Israel" at the time. Iran never expelled her Jewish population, quite the opposite as I recall.

Yes they imprisoned their Jews because so many had already been forced to leave by the regime. They could not afford the bad publicity that was a result of the forced emigration, so banned them from leaving. Look at the population prior to 1948 and then look at the declining population since 1948.

Untrue STATEMENT

Are you calling the people who escaped that regime and its bloodthirsty actions, as only an islamonazi apologist and propagandist could do

Grow Up

 

[Challenger]

Though you can never come up with a reason for them "not counting".

I have, time after time, and throughout most of "Jewish history", Jewish people have agreed with me, that is, until the Zionists re-wrote the history books. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. There may be some tenuous genetic links with people from Afghanistan to Morocco, but that's like saying I'm a "Roman" because I follow Roman Catholicism and may have some genetic material common to people from Spain to Greece.

 

[Boston1]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

Wrong. JUDAISM originated in monotheist cults in the Judean hills. From where the religion spread through proselytisation/conversion to the various ethnicities in the Levant and later along trade routes throughout the Persian, Hellenistic and Roman Empires. There were Judean communities scattered throughout these empires, some of which adopted Judaism, others that did not.

Man do you ever have one serious issue with hoof in mouth disease

Quote

God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshiped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. In 1967, Raphael Patai was the first historian to mention that the ancient Israelites worshiped both Yahweh and Asherah.Nov 27, 2012

End Quote

 

[Challenger]

The simple fact is that Judaic people developed in Judea and have remained their for all of written history.

Correct, the Judeans (and other ethnic groups) living in Palestine gradually converted to Islam by the 10th century. They're called Palestinians today.

 

[Challenger]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

Wrong. JUDAISM originated in monotheist cults in the Judean hills. From where the religion spread through proselytisation/conversion to the various ethnicities in the Levant and later along trade routes throughout the Persian, Hellenistic and Roman Empires. There were Judean communities scattered throughout these empires, some of which adopted Judaism, others that did not.

Man do you ever have one serious issue with hoof in mouth disease

Quote

God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshiped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. In 1967, Raphael Patai was the first historian to mention that the ancient Israelites worshiped both Yahweh and Asherah.Nov 27, 2012

End Quote

Does God have a wife in the Torah?

 

[Phoenall]

If a Palestinian mother can't have children and her children are adopted, does that mean they have no claim to be "Palestinian"? After all, the adopted children have no "Palestinian blood" or "ethnic markers".

What are you talking about?

Palestinian do not need silly excuses, they can prove that they themselves were expelled from their homeland, and that happened not 2000 years ago, but after 1948. But the very people that were expelled are not permitted to return to their homeland.

Zionists, who admit that they stem from converts, not from people who were presumably expelled from Palestine 2000 years ago, have the chutzpa and lunacy to say that they are "returning" to Palestine.

A guiding principle in the concept of self-determination is that the group self-identifies the members of the group. Outsiders don't get a say.

Can Roman Catholics from South Korea (ethnic Koreans) "return" to Rome, and kick out the native Italians, whose ancestors lived there for hundreds of years, and who are not Catholics any more?

Is the self-identification of some Roman Catholics with a Korean ethnic background more important than the rights of non-religious native Italians to live in Rome?

Are you kidding?

Oh, and eyeroll at the Khazar conspiracy theory. That has been widely and soundly debunked.

Show me any scientific article that debunks the finding of the Israeli scientist and expert in his filed Eran Elhaik.

“All Eurasian Jewish communities are closer to Caucasus populations,” he writes, with Central European Jews closer to Italian non-Jews as the exception. Not one of the eight evaluated Jewish populations were closer to Levant populations.

Highlight: Out of Khazaria—Evidence for “Jewish Genome” Lacking
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

Thank you.

Then why havent they done so in the international courts, They only need to produce the land title issued by the Ottomans or mandatory and they have won. Nothing issued after 1948 would be valid as they would be issued by Jordan.
Then how about a link proving this stupid claim as 80% of the Jews in Israel are indigenous according to UN criteria.


Is that like how a Syrian deserter who had never set foot in Palestine could claim that he owns Tel Aviv because he
has lived in Ramallah for 2 years. Of course a Korean national cant claim Rome as he has no links to Rome.



How about the novel written that first mentions Khazars from the mid 20C, no scientific evidence to pre date this or you would have produced it. As for your expert why has he been exposed as a LIAR and is using false data to get his name in the history books. So make a name for yourself and be the first to provide a scientific work that mentions the name Khazar written prior to 1920. Then show why the Jews did not die out from interbreeding 1000 year ago if as he claims they are descended from just 4 females. That would mean from age 12 to age 55 these females produced a child every 9 months and not one of them died. Then produce the secondary thesis by another eminent geneticist proving that his work was based on facts ( he has refused to release his evidence to the public domain because he knows the already small holes will become large holes if he does )


So all you have is one persons work that happens to meet with your pov and nothing else, and you demand evidence to disprove your half baked ideas

 

[Phoenall]

The simple fact is that Judaic people developed in Judea and have remained their for all of written history.

Correct, the Judeans (and other ethnic groups) living in Palestine gradually converted to Islam by the 10th century. They're called Palestinians today.

So there were no Christians in Palestine after the 10C, is that what you are saying. So they have no claims to the land for any purpose at all. Are you saying that the muslims are LIARS when they talk of Jewish groups in Palestine right through the existence of islam in the M.E. ?

They were not called Palestinians until the 20C, before that they were Syrians and would kill anyone insulting them with the name Palestinian.

 

[Phoenall]

To state that the modern day Jews were descended from just 4 females is ludicrous in the extreme.

No, it is hard science, bottle neck effects were common in human history.

The mentioned 4 females are not only the founding mothers of Ashkenazi communities, but also the ancestors of many, many different European ethnic groups.

Sorry, but it seems to me that you have no idea about human evolution and the science, called genetics.

Find one mention of khazaria prior to the second world war in any history books.

Are you kidding, aren't you?

Any historian knew about Khazaria, even ancient historians, there is a big amount of historical documents, Khazaria is not a controversial topic any more.

ALL historians agree that the first Jewish communities in Poland were created by Khazars, it is accepted by ALL historians that the ruling elite of Khazaria converted to Judaism.

There are different opinions about the scope of conversion of the common population in Khazaria (some of Khazars converted to Islam) and about the number of Khazars and "German Jews" who moved to Poland.

Some historians believe that the number of "German Jews" was bigger, which is ridiculous, because only a tiny number of "German Jews" migrated to Poland, and scientists do not believe in "demographic miracles".

You have to explain the sky rocketing fertility rate of "German Jews" (that had a very low fertility in Germany) with a demographic "miracle", but "miracles" is something that works in fairy tales, hard science does not accept miracles.

The most simple explanation is that there was a big number of Khazars in Poland/Lithuania/Ukraine that could not have been counted, because they were semi-nomads.

After the Russian Tsars ordered the "pale of settlement", they could count all nomads and semi-nomads, and that explains the sudden demographic miracle of Ashkenazi Jews.

Solzhenitsyn writes about this phenomenon in his books "200 years together" and supports his claims with documents.

But, unfortunately, these very important books were never translated into English.

It seems that when faced with evidence you will grasp at any straws. The study says the whole of the Jewsish race is descended from just 4 females. Now you are saying that 100 million people are descended from just these same 4 women. So do explain the DNA studies carried out that shows segregated groups show a distinct lack of outside DNA. As is the case with the Jews who have the same genome map as all the Jewish groups. That is European, Asian, African and Palestinian groups showing they are all the same people. No admixture from outside the group was found that was dominant.


Seems I have a better grasp than you as I bred animals, and I know not to breed family to family.

So you cant find just one mention and you are now back pedaling. Why do you idiots always stop dead when asked to provide this evidence, and then realise that your claims are based on a work of fiction . So produce one scientific work prior to the novel being published that mentions the Khazars ?

And then we get the get out of Jail card that you hope will get you out of jail. Why not post the book and I will translate it for you on here and we can all see just how stupid you are.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel actually showed considerable restraint compared to most after WWII when it came to forced population transfers.

Because of this "population transfer" (euphemism for ethnic cleansing) the international law was changed to be sure that ethnic cleansing never happen again.

But Israel ignored the international law and deliberately committed crimes.

You have to call a spade a spade, no linguistic acrobatic and no hasbara can deny the obvious facts.

You cannot justify actual crimes with something that happened in the past, before a crime became per definition in the law a crime.

So when was this law enacted, and don't forget UN resolutions are not law.
Then explain why muslims are still ethnically cleansing any of the lands they want to populate, which is why the Christians in Palestine are down by 90% in just 7 years.

 

[Shusha]

Though you can never come up with a reason for them "not counting".

I have, time after time, and throughout most of "Jewish history", Jewish people have agreed with me, that is, until the Zionists re-wrote the history books. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. There may be some tenuous genetic links with people from Afghanistan to Morocco, but that's like saying I'm a "Roman" because I follow Roman Catholicism and may have some genetic material common to people from Spain to Greece.

Still can't come up with a reason for the Jewish people not counting as a people or a culture or a nationality or an ethnic group or whatever word you want to use, can you? Yawn.

Still waiting for you to come up with some definitive criteria for why people (Kurds, Palestinians, Catalans, Basques, Cypriots - both the Turkish and Greek varieties, Tibetans, Koreans, Iroquois, Cherokee, Mayan, Coast Salish, Jordanians, Syrians, Ukraines, Poles, Germans, Icelanders, Serbians, Pakistanis, Indians, Japanese, Persians etc, etc, etc) have the right to national self-determination and the Jewish people do not.

 

[Phoenall]

what treaty or agreement moved jews out of iran? out of Russia? out of Belarus?

shut up idiot.

You tell me, I thought they all voluntarily emigrated to the "Zionist Paradise" because the USSR was "anti-Israel" at the time. Iran never expelled her Jewish population, quite the opposite as I recall.

Yes they imprisoned their Jews because so many had already been forced to leave by the regime. They could not afford the bad publicity that was a result of the forced emigration, so banned them from leaving. Look at the population prior to 1948 and then look at the declining population since 1948.

Untrue STATEMENT

Are you calling the people who escaped that regime and its bloodthirsty actions, as only an islamonazi apologist and propagandist could do

Grow Up

Hit a raw nerve have I. Whats wrong being shown an as islamonazi apologist too much to bear ?

 

[Phoenall]

And yet the Jews I know have stated that they are a race as well as a religion and culture. Most of the worlds civilised nations say that the Jews are a race, and so does their Judiciary. And we are expected to agree with some jumped up Nazi trained Jew hater that he knows better and that we should believe him.