The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Phoenall]

I wonder if these people droning on about race might be referred to as "racists"

Don't know you'd need to talk to the biggest racists on the planet, Zionists.

EVIDENCE of this alleged racism ?

 

[Challenger]

An Inuit can convert to Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam etc. It doesn't change his ethnicity.

A Jew can convert to Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. It doesn't change her ethnicity.

Correct. A Jewish Frenchman can convert to Catholicism and he remains a Frenchman.

 

[Challenger]

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.

But you have no reasonable definition of any of the terms which includes most groups while excluding the Jewish people.

Its like saying blue is not a color; Rottweilers are not dogs; pizza is not a food; Star Wars is not a movie.

No it isn't. Would you consider Mormons an ethnic group, or Quakers for that matter?

 

[Boston1]

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.

But you have no reasonable definition of any of the terms which includes most groups while excluding the Jewish people.

Its like saying blue is not a color; Rottweilers are not dogs; pizza is not a food; Star Wars is not a movie.

No it isn't. Would you consider Mormons an ethnic group, or Quakers for that matter?

Use your noodle Spiffy. If Mormons had been in Utah for the last 10,000 years, just like the Judaic people have been in the Canaan area, then yes, they likely would be considered an ethnic group. ;--)

you really might want to think things through before you make more wild claims ;--)

 

[montelatici]

The Zionist Jews that colonized Palestine were Europeans that lived in Europe for several millenia.

 

[Phoenall]

An Inuit can convert to Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam etc. It doesn't change his ethnicity.

A Jew can convert to Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. It doesn't change her ethnicity.

Correct. A Jewish Frenchman can convert to Catholicism and he remains a Frenchman.

No he will still be Jewish as French is not a race or ethnicity, it is a nationallity

 

[Phoenall]

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.

But you have no reasonable definition of any of the terms which includes most groups while excluding the Jewish people.

Its like saying blue is not a color; Rottweilers are not dogs; pizza is not a food; Star Wars is not a movie.

No it isn't. Would you consider Mormons an ethnic group, or Quakers for that matter?

No because they don't have distinctive DNA that sets them apart, that is the deciding factor.


Was Stalin a Russian or a Jew ?

 

[Phoenall]

The Zionist Jews that colonized Palestine were Europeans that lived in Europe for several millenia.

Including the 1 million that were evicted from the surrounding nations ?

 

[Shusha]

Correct. A Jewish Frenchman can convert to Catholicism and he remains a Frenchman.

And he remains Jewish.

 

[Shusha]

No it isn't. Would you consider Mormons an ethnic group, or Quakers for that matter?

That would depend on what qualities they had which might make them an ethnic group, a distinct culture or a "people". Certainly, as Boston already said, an association with a specific territory for a long period of time is one of the best markers of a people. Its one of the strongest arguments made by those who see the Palestinians as a people.

Having a religion does not include or exclude people from being a people, its one of the factors, but not the only one.

 

[Art__Allm]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

You are confusing a religious group with a people. BTW, Christians also originated in Palestine, Jesus Christ was the first Christian Palestinian.

Does this mean that any Christian in any part of the world has the right to "return" to Palestine?

 

[Boston1]

The Zionist Jews that colonized Palestine were Europeans that lived in Europe for several millenia.

You lie

Some of the returnees were from Europe, You're constantly cherrypicking just a few years in which Judiac returnees happened to be largely returning from Europe to their native homeland; Israel. But you psychotically ignore all those other years and all those other returnees as well as ignore natural growth.

The majority of returnees came from the middle east area with some significant amounts, say 35% ish who came from Europe.

You seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance as you've been informed of this multiple times. ;--)

Lets try and pull it together over there Monty ole been.

 

[Art__Allm]

If Israel ignored international law and deliberately committed the crime of ethnic cleansing and you are attempting to put it "right", why are you not ALSO demanding that all the other ethnic cleansings which occurred around that time are corrected?

What do you mean with "around the same time"?

Why are you not demanding that 15 million Germans be returned to their homelands in Eastern and Central Europe?

Well, this happened before the law was changed, and many German refugees still fight for their right to return to their homes. Who wanted already returned. Most of them do not want to return to Poland, etc., they just want compensations for the stolen property.

Your arguments are silly.

Imagine you steal somebody's property and refuse to return it, because in the past other guys did the same.

Why are you not demanding that the Latvians, the Estonians and Ukrainians be returned to the Soviet Union?

Do they want to return? If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.
It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to Ukraine, Estonia or Latvia has already done this.

Why are you not demanding that the Japanese be returned to Korea? And for the Turkish and Greek Cypriots be brought back to their homes? Why are you not demanding that Pakistan and India and Bangladesh return all of those uprooted in the ethnic cleansings be returned to their original homes? Along with all their descendants?

If there are people who want to return to their homes, I am supporting them.
The question ist: Do they want?

If Israel ignored international law and deliberately committed the crime of ethnic cleansing and you are attempting to put it "right", why are you not ALSO demanding that all the other ethnic cleansings which occurred around that time are corrected?

What do you mean with "around the same time"?

Why are you not demanding that 15 million Germans be returned to their homelands in Eastern and Central Europe?

Well, this happened before the law was changed, and German refugees still fight for their right to return to their homes.

You arguments are silly.

Imagine you steal somebody's property and refuse to return it, because in the past other guys did the same.

Why are you not demanding that the Latvians, the Estonians and Ukrainians be returned to the Soviet Union?

Do they want to return? If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.
It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to Ukraine, Estonia or Latvia has already done this.

Why are you claiming that Israel ignored international law and yet all of these other nations did not?

Well, I am repeating it again.

If there are people who want to return to their homes, I am supporting them.

Do they want to return?

If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.

It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to the mentioned countries has already done this. There are no laws that prohibit that.

 

[Boston1]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

You are confusing a religious group with a people. BTW, Christians also originated in Palestine, Jesus Christ was the first Christian Palestinian.

Does this mean that any Christian in any part of the world has the right to "return" to Palestine?

Wrong again. WOW is the anti Israeli diatribe really so heavily dependent on half truths and outright lies ?

We don't know who the first pauline christian was in palestaena as the Romans wouldn't adopt the term palestaena for about another 100 years after Pauls time and by then there were hundreds of the little vermin scurrying about town.

And what makes you think Jesus was the first christian ? Are you suggesting he invented pauline christianity ? Paul the myth maker anyone ? Jesus was Jewish and at no time advocated abandoning Judaism. Paul, originally a Hellenistic pagan invented christianity as a conglomeration of pagan belief systems as a twisted kind of cult pyramid scheme.

In any case indigenous people are defined in a number of different ways but are generally considered to be the first peoples, not the second or the third or the twentieth. FIRST PEOPLES

 

[Shusha]

Actually, the more I think about it, one could make a very strong argument for the Quakers and the Amish as distinct cultures or peoples. Culturally specific forms of dress, codified laws and rituals, a specific territory, probably dialect or language markers, special foods. I'm sure there is more.

 

[Boston1]

No it isn't. Would you consider Mormons an ethnic group, or Quakers for that matter?

That would depend on what qualities they had which might make them an ethnic group, a distinct culture or a "people". Certainly, as Boston already said, an association with a specific territory for a long period of time is one of the best markers of a people. Its one of the strongest arguments made by those who see the Palestinians as a people.

Having a religion does not include or exclude people from being a people, its one of the factors, but not the only one.

Its actually a very weak argument in terms of its application to the Arab Muslims living in Israel as they virtually all arrived in the second Arab Muslim colonization period in the early to mid 20th century.

 

[Boston1]

Actually, the more I think about it, one could make a very strong argument for the Quakers and the Amish as distinct cultures or peoples. Culturally specific forms of dress, codified laws and rituals, a specific territory, probably dialect or language markers, special foods. I'm there is more.

You could but you'd not be able to argue they are the native peoples of that land or that they are indigenous or a first nations people.

IE while its true that a culture can develop over time the Arab Muslims in Israel havne't had nearly enough time to develop anything more than a bad attitude. Its also true culture can develop in an area that was colonized by those of the new culture.

For instance the Arab Muslims in Israel have a culture of hatred and racism where they venerate terrorists and tend to believe that blowing up bus loads of school kids or strapping bombs on 10 year olds is morally acceptable. Its a horrific culture but its a form of culture none the less.

However that doesn't make them the native or indigenous people, it just makes them the sick bastards they are.

 

[Shusha]

Well, this happened before the law was changed...

Really? Would you outline for me exactly when the law changed, and what instrument changed it?

 

[Shusha]

You could but you'd not be able to argue they are the native peoples of that land or that they are indigenous or a first nations people.

We agree. There is a distinction between being indigenous and being a culture or ethnic group. The former speaks to the place of origin of a people or cultural group.

But in 5,000 or 10,000 years, I can see people arguing that the Quakers or the Amish DID develop their distinct culture on that territory. Its not an impossible argument.

 

[Boston1]

You could but you'd not be able to argue they are the native peoples of that land or that they are indigenous or a first nations people.

We agree. There is a distinction between being indigenous and being a culture or ethnic group. The former speaks to the place of origin of a people or cultural group.

But in 5,000 or 10,000 years, I can see people arguing that the Quakers or the Amish DID develop their distinct culture on that territory. Its not an impossible argument.

No but it still doesn't make them a first nations people or indigenous. They're still colonists from Europe and still not native to the land.

Culture can develop within a colonist environment but indigenous or native status is only something obtained long ago in the beginning of human history.