The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Shusha]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

With this response, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of sovereignty.

You people keep confusing military rule with sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

The matter of sovereignty is vested in supreme authority in a political context; it is not dependent on how that supreme authority is maintained. HOWEVER! In the 139 sovereign member nations of the UN; which of these nations do not have police or military (if not both and more)?

(RHETORICAL: In the top 51 nations ranked Very High Human Development Index, ALL of them have a military force, Police and internal security forces. Separately, every single member of the Arab League have similar enforcement tools. In September 1970 The Palestinian fedayeen groups posed an internal threat in the Hashemite Kingdom in 1970.)
​

Please don't be so naive as to think that law and order, national defense and internal security are not key components in the politics of 21st Century Nations of successesful nations.

And most certainly, military rule can sustain the sovereignty of a dictatorship; just as it can effect regime change.
(Countries Ruled by Dictatorship)

Most Respectfully,
R

Occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

ARTICLE 4

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.​

Sovereignty is a matter of right not might.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if you read your own posts.

"The rights of each (state) do not depend upon he power which it possesses ... but upon the simple fact of its existence... under international law."

It is a simple fact that Israel exists. You can't just pretend that simple fact is not true and make it go away.

Israel exists where?

It has a border with Jordan to the east. A border with Egypt to the south. Disputed borders with Lebanon and Syria to the north. And the sea to the West.

But what difference does it make? Your own post says "simple fact of its existence". It's a simple fact.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

With this response, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of sovereignty.

You people keep confusing military rule with sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

The matter of sovereignty is vested in supreme authority in a political context; it is not dependent on how that supreme authority is maintained. HOWEVER! In the 139 sovereign member nations of the UN; which of these nations do not have police or military (if not both and more)?

(RHETORICAL: In the top 51 nations ranked Very High Human Development Index, ALL of them have a military force, Police and internal security forces. Separately, every single member of the Arab League have similar enforcement tools. In September 1970 The Palestinian fedayeen groups posed an internal threat in the Hashemite Kingdom in 1970.)
​

Please don't be so naive as to think that law and order, national defense and internal security are not key components in the politics of 21st Century Nations of successesful nations.

And most certainly, military rule can sustain the sovereignty of a dictatorship; just as it can effect regime change.
(Countries Ruled by Dictatorship)

Most Respectfully,
R

Occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

ARTICLE 4

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.​

Sovereignty is a matter of right not might.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if you read your own posts.

"The rights of each (state) do not depend upon he power which it possesses ... but upon the simple fact of its existence... under international law."

It is a simple fact that Israel exists. You can't just pretend that simple fact is not true and make it go away.

Israel exists where?

It has a border with Jordan to the east. A border with Egypt to the south. Disputed borders with Lebanon and Syria to the north. And the sea to the West.

But what difference does it make? Your own post says "simple fact of its existence". It's a simple fact.

Israel has say so borders with Jordan and Egypt.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's back up here a moment.

Israeli borders, like the borders of many countries, are subject to minor adjustments, but for the most part, fairly firm. The borders that are in common with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are without prejudice to the issue of the Arab Palestinians and the conflict in progress.

Israel has say so borders with Jordan and Egypt.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure what is meant by "say so borders." This is jargon for which I no not the definition.

The Israeli permanent boundary with Egypt (to the south) and Jordan (to the east) are by treaty in settlement of the 1948 War (Independence); and the outbreak of hostilities under Armistice in 1967 (Six Day War) and again in the conflict of 1973 (Yom Kipper War). The final dispute settlements brought a close to the 1949 Armistice Agreements which were essentially to remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties. The Armistice Agreements dissolved with the establishment of the treaties.

The formal boundary between Israel and Lebanon was "Reaffirmed" in the Letter dated 9 June 2000 from the President of Lebanon addressed to the Secretary-General in which “the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...”, that “this line was reaffirmed in the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement signed on 23 March 1949.” Under the Vienna Convention Law of Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980), the international agreement concluded between Israel and Lebanon (mediated through the UN) in written form and governed by international law, tendered through related instruments and whatever its particular designation.

The Dictatorship of Syria, now going into its eighth year of Civil War, brought on by Syrian pro-democracy activists in 2011 (AKA: Arab Spring triggered by the arrest and torture of some teenagers who painted revolutionary slogans on a school wall) will change the face of Syrian domestic politics and the approach the government takes towards its population. The unnecessary draconian and heavy-handedness of the al-Assad Government has cost the nation dearly in the backlash and making it weak and ripe for Jihadist, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters to grab a foothold. The Syria of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, the Syria which refused to make peace with Israel, and the Syria which aligned itself with the Russian, may not survive in its pre-Arab Spring form. It is to no one's advantage to enter into an agreement with Syria given the current conditions.

(EFFECTS ON THE CREATION OF ISRAEL)

In looking at the timeline of Israel since the intervention of the Arab League States, one can say that the various events along the way have contributed to the shaping and reshaping of Israel. In the end, the Machiavellian intervention by the Arab League cost them dearly and did nothing to help the plight of the Arab Palestinians. If anything, the unsuccessful attempts by the Arab League to dominate the Israelis in their attempt to build a Jewish National Home and suppress the right of self-determination only served to worsen the political, economic, cultural and developmental of every party involved. The Arab military strategies of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 marked Arab setbacks again, and again, and again. What they did accomplish was to encourage the Israelis to heavily invest in military firepower.

If anything, the Arab Palestinians fell prey to the territorial grab by Egypt and Jordan which took control the remaining portions of the Gaza district and the West Bank of the Jordan River (including East Jerusalem). The Arab Palestinians, in siding with and encouraging the intervention of the Arab League States will not likely regain the territory originally allocated in the partition recommendation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's back up here a moment.

Israeli borders, like the borders of many countries, are subject to minor adjustments, but for the most part, fairly firm. The borders that are in common with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are without prejudice to the issue of the Arab Palestinians and the conflict in progress.

Israel has say so borders with Jordan and Egypt.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure what is meant by "say so borders." This is jargon for which I no not the definition.

The Israeli permanent boundary with Egypt (to the south) and Jordan (to the east) are by treaty in settlement of the 1948 War (Independence); and the outbreak of hostilities under Armistice in 1967 (Six Day War) and again in the conflict of 1973 (Yom Kipper War). The final dispute settlements brought a close to the 1949 Armistice Agreements which were essentially to remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties. The Armistice Agreements dissolved with the establishment of the treaties.

The formal boundary between Israel and Lebanon was "Reaffirmed" in the Letter dated 9 June 2000 from the President of Lebanon addressed to the Secretary-General in which “the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...”, that “this line was reaffirmed in the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement signed on 23 March 1949.” Under the Vienna Convention Law of Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980), the international agreement concluded between Israel and Lebanon (mediated through the UN) in written form and governed by international law, tendered through related instruments and whatever its particular designation.

The Dictatorship of Syria, now going into its eighth year of Civil War, brought on by Syrian pro-democracy activists in 2011 (AKA: Arab Spring triggered by the arrest and torture of some teenagers who painted revolutionary slogans on a school wall) will change the face of Syrian domestic politics and the approach the government takes towards its population. The unnecessary draconian and heavy-handedness of the al-Assad Government has cost the nation dearly in the backlash and making it weak and ripe for Jihadist, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters to grab a foothold. The Syria of the 1973 Yom Kipper War, the Syria which refused to make peace with Israel, and the Syria which aligned itself with the Russian, may not survive in its pre-Arab Spring form. It is to no one's advantage to enter into an agreement with Syria given the current conditions.

(EFFECTS ON THE CREATION OF ISRAEL)

In looking at the timeline of Israel since the intervention of the Arab League States, one can say that the various events along the way have contributed to the shaping and reshaping of Israel. In the end, the Machiavellian intervention by the Arab League cost them dearly and did nothing to help the plight of the Arab Palestinians. If anything, the unsuccessful attempts by the Arab League to dominate the Israelis in their attempt to build a Jewish National Home and suppress the right of self-determination only served to worsen the political, economic, cultural and developmental of every party involved. The Arab military strategies of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 marked Arab setbacks again, and again, and again. What they did accomplish was to encourage the Israelis to heavily invest in military firepower.

If anything, the Arab Palestinians fell prey to the territorial grab by Egypt and Jordan which took control the remaining portions of the Gaza district and the West Bank of the Jordan River (including East Jerusalem). The Arab Palestinians, in siding with and encouraging the intervention of the Arab League States will not likely regain the territory originally allocated in the partition recommendation.

Most Respectfully,
R

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

2. This withdrawal shall begin on the day after that which follows the signing of this Agreement, at 0500 hours GMT, and shall be beyond the Egypt-Palestine frontier.

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949​

How did Israel claim borders on Palestine?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Over and over again.

Of course, you conveniently forget the title of the Armistice Agreements. It was not an agreement with Palestine. Palestine was the short title for the Government of Palestine which was the British Government.

Palestine is not a holding or sovereignty of the Palestinians.

How did Israel claim borders on Palestine?

(COMMENT)

Self-determination and the establishment of a self-governing set of institutions; as recommended by the UN successors to the Mandate.

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians since they declined to participate in the establishment of self-governing institutions. No matter what excuse the Arab Palestinians give for the decisions to reject offers to participate, the fact is they did reject the offers (several times).

You can nit-pick over names and quibble the reasons for trying to obstruct the development of a Jewish National Home. But what was done is done. No one can roll-back the clock.

There is an Israel, defined by their sovereign control. Arguing about what you think can or cannot be done is simply unproductive.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course, you conveniently forget the title of the Armistice Agreements. It was not an agreement with Palestine.

OK, so?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine was the short title for the Government of Palestine which was the British Government.

This was in 1949. The British left in 1948.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians

750,000 got the boot and their country was occupied.

Oh yeah, no concern.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is an Israel, defined by their sovereign control.

Occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

 

[Hollie]

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians

750,000 got the boot and their country was occupied.

Oh yeah, no concern.

What country was occupied?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians

750,000 got the boot and their country was occupied.

Oh yeah, no concern.

What country was occupied?

The one where a million Palestinians lived.

 

[Hollie]

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians

750,000 got the boot and their country was occupied.

Oh yeah, no concern.

What country was occupied?

The one where a million Palestinians lived.

Do you not understand it's an embarrassment that you invent a history of a "country" that never existed? Apparently you do so to calm an emotional requirement that allows you the delusion of your alternate reality. You have invented some place that never existed and here you are, on a public message board, expecting others to take your delusion seriously.

 

[rylah]

Where does it say that Palestine was to be an Arab state/nation?

It didn't. They were all Palestinians without distinction.

But for some reason a certain people were recognized in the Mandate of Palestine, with regard to their indigenous historic rights to the land. The Mandatory power had an obligation towards this nation, which it partially failed.

You know which was the only nation regarded in the context of sovereignty over Palestine?

The Palestinians.

The Mandatory power also had an obligation towards the Palestinians to facilitate specifically Jewish immigration in order to fulfill the establishment of a Jewish national Homeland -this obligation was specifically mentioned in the laws that gave the Mandatory power the sovereignty over Palestine.

You people keep confusing military rule with sovereignty.

I don't see a refutation.

 

[rylah]

It was not a matter of concern to the Arab Palestinians

750,000 got the boot and their country was occupied.

Oh yeah, no concern.

Of course Arabs were concerned, their grandparents have just expelled Jews from all of their holy cities.Their parents had just commited a wave of pogroms and swore to expel Jews from their homeland.

Arabs feared that other indigenous people might see that and get the example,of how to get independent from the yoke of the Arab empire.

 

[Sixties Fan]

We have discussed The Map That Lies a number of times, showing how the well-publicized maps of "disappearing Palestine" are complete misrepresentations of the truth.

It turns out that the entire concept of the false map was done many years ago - by Zionists.

Yisrael Medad uncovered this map from an essay by L.B. Namier taken from “In the Margin of History” published in 1939.

The map accurately shows the diminishing size of the homeland promised to the Jews from the time of the Balfour Declaration through the British Mandate to the infamous 1939 White Paper:



The haters can't even be original.

(full article online)

Israel haters even ripped off "The Map The Lies" ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Is there any predominantly Muslim nation that is not a social, economic or military disaster?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

This is NOT quite as easy to assess as a bundle (social, economic or military). With the exception of the Comoros, Mauritania and Djibouti - most of the Arab League nations have a fairly stable economy. But the comarative numbers globally are less than optimum.

​

​

​

Is there any predominantly Muslim nation that is not a social, economic or military disaster?

(COMMENT)

As you can see from the two maps, a vast majority of the Islamic nations overlay the some of the poorest nations in the world; the entire North African Coast, the Central Asian 'stans, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, and Southeast Asian Island Chain. Obviously, correlation does not mean causation. (Must be Coincidence!)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Mindful]

The Jews were in Palestine as a matter of right and not sufferance.

The Mandate provided:

“The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co¬operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.“

The first betrayal of that promise and right came in 1921 before the Mandate was signed. The Arabs had rioted and Britain decided to reduce Jewish immigration to “absorptive capacity” and told Chaim Weizmann that the mandate wouldn’t be signed if the Jews didn’t agree to delete temporarily, the east bank of the Jordan. The Jews had no choice but to agree and the Palestine Mandate was signed in 1922. This territory amounted to 78% of what was promised to the Jews and it ultimately became Jordan. The deletion of the east bank became permanent contrary to Article 5 which prohibited any removal of land from the Mandate.

While the British Cabinet was generally sympathetic to the Zionist project, the Civil Administration appointed by it to manage the mandatory was anti-Semitic. It restrained the Jews and emboldened the Arabs thereby violating its pledge to use its best efforts to facilitate the creation of a homeland. Whenever the Arabs rioted, the Jews were made to pay the price. Sound familiar?

After the Arab riots of 1929. a "white paper" was issued by Britain that stated that because of the shortage of arable land, Jewish settlement would be permitted only under stringent government supervision. Thus, another betrayal.

The step by step story of the 100 year betrayal of the Jews

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[rylah]

The professor has a basic arithmetic mistake,
Arabs have started the war more than a 100 years ago.

Violence and pogroms against Palestinian Jews preceded Zionism and the mandate.