The Fork In The Road...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by PoliticalChic, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. PoliticalChic
    Offline

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,829
    Thanks Received:
    15,666
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +24,985
    With election season in full swing, the editorial in today's WSJ is on point, and a reminder to all of us that there decisions that will detemine the future of this great nation.

    Simply put, individual liberty, or serving the collective.

    From the Op-Ed by Professor Pestritto

    1. ... the original progressives—including leaders such as Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt—rejected America's founding principles....today's leftist policies are the culmination of a journey begun by progressives over a century ago.

    2. The progressive movement did indeed repudiate the principles of individual liberty and limited government that were the basis of the American republic. America's original progressives were convinced that the country faced a set of social and economic problems demanding a sharp increase in federal power. They also said that there was too much emphasis placed on protecting the liberty of individuals at the expense of broader social justice.

    3. ... in his 1887 essay, "Socialism and Democracy," Wilson considered the socialist principle—"that all idea of limitation of public authority by individual rights be put out of view"—to be entirely consistent with democratic principles: "In fundamental theory socialism and democracy are almost if not quite one and the same. They both rest at bottom upon the absolute right of the community to determine its own destiny and that of its members. . . . Limits of wisdom and convenience to the public control there may be: limits of principle there are, upon strict analysis, none."

    4. ...in his famous "New Nationalism" speech of 1910, [Roosevelt] said it was necessary that there be "a far more active governmental interference" with the economy. "It is not enough," he said, that a fortune was "gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community."

    5. To achieve their ends, progressives understood that the original constitutional limits on the scope of the federal government had to be breached. This is why Roosevelt railed against court decisions, like the famous Supreme Court case of Lochner v. New York (1905), that upheld individual property rights against progressive legislation ...

    6. Today, a congressman such as Pete Stark can simply boast that the federal government "can do most anything in this country." And Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi won't even consider the constitutionality of a government takeover of health care a "serious question." Given this state of affairs, it does not seem unreasonable to reflect on the origins of the disdain for the Constitution in the Progressive Era.
    Ronald Pestritto: Glenn Beck, Progressives and Me - WSJ.com
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. Micky G. Jagger
    Offline

    Micky G. Jagger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    656
    Thanks Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +31
    A limited government couldn't have protect farmers from unjust and unreasonable railroad shipping rates, secret rebates and price discrimination against small markets.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 2
  3. Dr.Traveler
    Offline

    Dr.Traveler Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    3,952
    Thanks Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    In a Non-Euclidean Manifold
    Ratings:
    +1,054
    People forget this. In order for a free market to continue to exist you have to have a government willing to regulate to keep the playing field fair. Otherwise free markets tend towards stagnation and monopolies.

    Reasonable Regulation isn't the problem. In fact, Regulation is what keeps people investing. Without bank regulations people would have never taken the money out of their mattresses back in the 40's and put it in banks where it could get out into the market.

    Its when Regulation crosses the line from "Leveling the playing field" to closing down new business that you run into trouble.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 2
  4. midcan5
    Offline

    midcan5 liberal / progressive

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,790
    Thanks Received:
    2,367
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Location:
    Philly, PA
    Ratings:
    +3,301
    More horse manure from the conservative/corporate think tanks who brought you the near collapse of the entire financial structure, while they monitor your bedroom activities and your freedom in life to marry your loved one, and decide for you when you are ready to take on the responsibility of raising children. Wingnuts rejoice, your brain has received another revisionist update, no need to puzzle over what to think next: 'Tool programming complete.'

    I can't even read this stupidity any longer, anyone who reads the history of the 20th century, knows the 'progressivism' of the early part of the century made great progress. The irrational exuberance of the twenties led straight to the GD, which FDR helped pull us out of a near catastrophe till Reagan began the destruction of the middle class and the regulatory structures, that protected the nation till the 80's. Reagan also brought an insane militant hubris that made George W. Bush invade countries totally in opposition to the values of America. I have asked a hundred times for an accomplishment of any of these republicans comparable to FDR or LBJ's civil rights, and I get no answer. They are lost in think tank propaganda, because in the end, republicans like this author are simply corporate hacks.

    The Claremont Institute - About the Claremont Institute
    The Claremont Institute - Ronald J. Pestritto

    ....
    Coolidge / Hoover - Banks collapse, economy collapses
    Great Depression begins - Hoover ineffective
    FDR rescues the nation from Great Depression, creates regulatory structure
    FDR creates the greatest single asset for all Americans: Social Security
    FDR masterfully fought WWII along with Churchill and help from Stalin
    Truman ends the savagery of the war with Japan with the ultimate savagery
    Truman extends New Deal and Civil rights
    Eisenhower ignores right wing war mongering republicans, extends civil rights
    Warren court hands down ruling on public school segregation
    Eisenhower continues progressivism, Vietnam involvement continues from Truman
    Eisenhower commits to helping South Vietnam
    'Cold War' clouds the mind of America creating contradictory values
    WWII end brings prosperity due to GI bill, home growth, and durable goods growth
    Kennedy buys into ridiculous Bay of Pigs plan from Eisenhower administration
    America's youth gain power prestige and purchasing power
    Battle for space with Russia consumes America's resources
    Blacks decide waiting any longer for equality is too long
    LBJ foolishly listens to war cries concerning domino effect and tragically involves US in Nam
    LBJ advances civil rights and extended welfare so all Americans can have a little of the pie
    Nixon has secret plan for ending Vietnam but paranoid personality ruins administration
    Nixon opens up trade to China
    Anti war demonstrations change attitudes and hurt LBJ social achievements
    Carter inherits stagflation economy from Nixon / Ford
    Carter supports Afghanistan against Russian occupation, seeds are set for growth of insurgency terrorism
    Oil embargo hurts Carter but efforts at energy policy are forgotten as Reagan wins
    Reagan starts the destruction of the middle class in part by making government a problem
    Reagan starts destruction of regulatory agencies that eventually lead to the Great Recession of today.
    Bush Sr experiences effect of Reagan economic policies, economy collapses, real estate boom crash, S&L scandal, bailouts to rescue nation again after republican policy
    GH Bush losses as Republican policy fails once again
    Clinton raises taxes, economy recovers aided by millennium and Internet bubble
    Clinton buys into financial nonsense, supporting NAFTA, regulatory and welfare reform
    Armies of money and power go after Clinton spending publicly and privately millions
    Bush-Gore election goes to Bush as SCOTUS has moved from liberal to fascist
    Bush proves inept in all ways, but 911 attack creates fear and more war cries
    Bush proves himself an incompetent leader who creates massive debt and death
    Clinton surplus is squandered on tax relief primarily for the wealthy
    'War on Terror' clouds the mind of America creating contradictory values
    Bush invades Iraq based on trumped up nonsense about WMDs and fear
    Economy collapses under Bush and bailouts are once again required after a republican administration
    Obama wins election for 'change' due to the failure of Bush and the republicans
    Armies of money and power again mount offensive attacking the American values of justice and fairness represented by Obama
    Obama passes Healthcare policy, keeps promises on wars
    Once again the economy is moving in the right direction but the armies of money and power are greater today and propaganda and revisionist history have gained large footholds in the minds of the uneducated....

    And so it goes....republicans fail democrats try....it would seem monkeys and humans never learn....


    The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press
    "He argues that a triplet of 'rhetorical' criticisms--perversity, futility, and jeopardy--'has been unfailingly leveled' by 'reactionaries' at each major progressive reform of the past 300 years--those T. H. Marshall identified with the advancement of civil, political and social rights of citizenship...Charmingly written, this book can benefit a diverse readership."
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  5. PoliticalChic
    Offline

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,829
    Thanks Received:
    15,666
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +24,985
    While the theme of the OP, i.e. the choice between individual liberty and the collective, is centerstage today, the reasons that you point to for progressivism are no longer evident.

    Progressivism as an idea had arisen in the 1880’s, when America was transforming from a largely agricultural country into a burgeoning urban one. But many Americans who had emigrated prior to the Civil War retained a certain moral nostalgia for their American past. While they enjoyed modernization, and wanted to share in the profits of industrial American, and the benefits of city life, they, somewhat paradoxically, yearned for the albeit mythological decency of a rural America. Today, most Americans share the opportunity and the American dream.

    a. The Progressive movement at first was made up of consumers and taxpayers who were challenging the accumulated wealth and power of the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Morgans, etc. But by 1912, it had become largely farmers and industrial workers seeking relief from the onerous power of the great monopolies. James Chace, “1912,” p.100

    What is the reason that we require the same level of government, when more than half of Americans are owners of the great corportations?
     
  6. PoliticalChic
    Offline

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,829
    Thanks Received:
    15,666
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +24,985
    1. "...More horse manure from the conservative/corporate think tanks who brought you the near collapse of the entire financial structure,...."
    And, of course, it was progressive's policy, from the GRE's of 1938, to the housing policy of Clinton-Cuomo, to Dodd-Frank...ect. that is, in major part, the cause of same.

    2. "I can't even read this stupidity any longer, anyone who reads the history of the 20th century, knows the 'progressivism' of the early part of the century made great progress."
    Progess toward replacing the primacy of the individual, on which this nation was based, to primacy of the state.

    You've spent far too much time at the Emmanuel Goldstein hissing sessions.

    3. BTW, I saw the graph that 'USA Today' published, of the close correspondence beween the plummeting of President Obama's poll numbers and Midcan's corybantic effusions.
    While I envy your popularity, I worry about your health.
    Calm down.
     
  7. del
    Offline

    del BANNED

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Messages:
    45,052
    Thanks Received:
    9,830
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +9,885
    umm, because having a couple of shares of Exxon in your 401(k) isn't the same as owning standard oil?

    even for you, this is some weak stuff.

    keep swinging
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  8. uscitizen
    Offline

    uscitizen Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    45,941
    Thanks Received:
    4,791
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    My Shack
    Ratings:
    +4,807
    Be an individual join the Tea Party!



    LMAO
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 2
  9. PoliticalChic
    Offline

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,829
    Thanks Received:
    15,666
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +24,985
    BTW Middy, while it was nice of you to provide the link to the Claremont, you might have included this paragraph:

    "The mission of the Claremont Institute is to restore the principles of the American Founding to their rightful, preeminent authority in our national life. These principles are expressed most eloquently in the Declaration of Independence, which proclaims that "all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." To recover the founding principles in our political life means recovering a limited and accountable government that respects private property, promotes stable family life, and maintains a strong national defense."

    Succint, well written...don't you agree?
     
  10. PoliticalChic
    Offline

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,829
    Thanks Received:
    15,666
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +24,985
    I may keep swinging, but you seem to keep striking out:

    "And where are the kudos for Big Oil, without which we couldn’t get to work? Or should we go after the owners of Exxon with pitchforks an firebrands? Better not, after all they is us! “Exxon Mobil, in fact, is owned mostly by ordinary Americans. Mutual funds, index funds and pension funds (including union pension funds) own about 52 percent of Exxon Mobil’s shares. Individual shareholders, about two million or so, own almost all the rest. The pooh-bahs who run Exxon own less than 1 percent of the company.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/business/02every.html


    Care to retract?
     

Share This Page