The Forgotten Part Of Normandy

[Stryder50]

Of course there are stupid right wingers everywhere that love joining dictator's armies.... But we are talking about 1945 and why the Italy Austria etcetera attack on the southern belly was not a bad idea. 1945 remember? Jesus you people are stupid.

Just like there are stupid Left wingers that love joining dictator's and revolutionaries armies.
By January 1944 it was clear that "Italy, Austria, etcetera WAS a BAD IDEA.

Take a look in the mirror to find a stupid person.

 

[westwall]

Yep stupid propaganda and lies and ******* insults, that's all you have...

Funny how every other modern country can handle all this stuff and we are the richest one by far, brainwashed functional moron.

You ARE the expert on being a brainwashed non functional moron.


DURRRRRR

You are so fucking stupid you can't even put together a insult that makes sense.

 

[francoHFW]

Can you present an intelligent conversation at all?

Churchill wasn't always right in his strategic thinking.
Eisenhower had second thoughts by December when the Gustaf Line proved too tough to punch through and the mud, snow, and Winter didn't help any. When Anzio landing became a botched undertaking that sealed off the MTO~ North thru Italy, as the doorway into Germany as far as Ike was concerned.

Link to that BS please?

Did you figure out that what right wing fools in Yugoslavia wanted in 1941 was a hell of a lot different than what they wanted in 1944 to 1945? Don't you wanna waste some more time with that baloney lol? When you lose an argument, just move on right. That's the US conservative way. Change the channel. Tell us again how the Democratic Party of today is the party of slavery. You people seem to be in a time warp....

 

[francoHFW]

Just like there are stupid Left wingers that love joining dictator's and revolutionaries armies.
By January 1944 it was clear that "Italy, Austria, etcetera WAS a BAD IDEA.

Take a look in the mirror to find a stupid person.

Left wing dictators are communists and I don't see that happening anywhere in the last 60 years LOL.... Left wingers were not excited about communists in World War Two either, especially when the choice was between Stalin or FDR.... I don't think you have a clue...

 

[francoHFW]

You ARE the expert on being a brainwashed non functional moron.


DURRRRRR

You are so fucking stupid you can't even put together a insult that makes sense.

Ask anyone in the modern world and they will tell you that the GOP base and trump is the stupidest politics by far in the modern world. Change the channel. Conservatism is right wing you fools, so are Nazis, the difference is democracy barely. If trump got martial law he would be a right wing dictator president. Everybody knows all this except for you fools in the Murdoch idiot universe of conspiracy theories and lies..., brainwashed functional anti American who believes all our institutions are conspiracies against the orange clown. Poor America. Right wing is no government is total brainwashed idiocy.

 

[westwall]

Ask anyone in the modern world and they will tell you that the GOP base and trump is the stupidest politics by far in the modern world. Change the channel. Conservatism is right wing you fools, so are Nazis, the difference is democracy barely. If trump got martial law he would be a right wing dictator president. Everybody knows all this except for you fools in the Murdoch idiot universe of conspiracy theories and lies..., brainwashed functional anti American who believes all our institutions are conspiracies against the orange clown. Poor America. Right wing is no government is total brainwashed idiocy.

No, only YOUR fellow fascists will say that. Face it, child, yours is the party of grooming children, pedophiles, and violent extremists.

 

[francoHFW]

No, only YOUR fellow fascists will say that. Face it, child, yours is the party of grooming children, pedophiles, and violent extremists.

Yes yes who needs evidence or courtrooms when you have internet conspiracy con men/nuts and fox babbling bought off idiot pundits?

 

[Mushroom]

Germany and Italy were dictatorships and were not socialists you idiot no matter what they called themselves.

I see.

You are aware that Il Douche was not only a radical Communist, he was actually the publisher of the official Communist newspaper and one of the leaders of the Italian Communist Party before he was excommunicated, are you not? Not for anything against Communism itself, but because he believed that National Sovereignty was more important than blind obedience to an "International Soviet". It was after that where he developed "Fascism", which was Socialism, but with a Nationalist Bend instead of an Internationalist one.

And he was the idol of Anton Drexler, but a failed artist and Corporal from Austria that was sent to investigate the new party in Germany.

If you think that The NSDAP and Italian Fascist Party were not Socialist, then you are a fool. Try reading the platform and planks of each party, and they were both radically Socialist.

However, I have already seen that actual history and information is foreign to you. You are all propaganda and crazy beliefs that have no connection with reality. Of course, that is not unusual in most "Socialists-Communists" today, who want to forget that Hitler and Mussolini were once one of their own.

 

[Mushroom]

Can you follow intelligent conversation at all? We're talking about going through the Italy and Austria and Hungary

Can you comprehend that was just not possible?

There was the Alpine Range between Italy and Austria. So passage between them was impossible.

And since you are obviously geographically challenged, here is a map of Europe of the time.

Gee, look at that! Between Italy and Hungary was this country known as "Yugoslavia". And it was German Occupied.

So please tell us how they were going to go through Hungary (which was an Axis Power), without also going through Yugoslavia (which was German Occupied).

Can you not comprehend such a basic and simple concept? Going through those countries would have not only put the US and UK behind the Soviets, they would have been going through some of the most inhospitable terrain for a modern army to fight in.

I can see that you have absolutely no grasp of anything military. Instead, you simply scream and toss around insults, failing to grasp why what you wanted to see happen was impossible.

 

[Mushroom]

Of course there are stupid right wingers everywhere that love joining dictator's armies

Oh dear me. Now I know you are completely off the rails.

First of all, I am not a "Right Winger". In fact, most who knew me in the military tended to call me a "Militant Moderate". I really do have no political axe to grind, and am not discussing anything even remotely close to political. I am talking about the logistics, the terrain, and other factors. What we in the military call "METT-TC".

Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops Available, Time, and Civilian Considerations. And as should be obvious, going through even just Italy was a failure. The Allied invaded almost a year before Normandy, and still had not occupied all of the country before the war ended. Yet somehow, they were going to just sail right on through, and then through German Occupied Yugoslavia, Hungary (why even go there I have no idea, but you are the one that insisted they invade and go through Yugoslavia), then Austria.

And somehow, they would have accomplished all that before the Soviets themselves took over Germany.

And apparently, I am a "Right Winger" because I know more than a little bit about the countries involved, the terrain, actual history, and military operations. Well, I can simply assume that anybody that does not agree with you and can prove how wrong you are is a "Right Winger" to you.

Tell me, cupcake. Exactly how much experience do you have in the military? And how long have you actually studied WWII? I think little to none, as I have been repeatedly showing how utterly wrong you are constantly. Like your little claim that "All of Yugoslavia hated Germany", never mind the large number of Divisions that were recruited from Yugoslavia. Not only Army Divisions, but entire SS Divisions.

With this, I am pretty much accepting that you have realized you have completely and utterly failed to prove any of your points, and are simply attacking me to attack me.

And I also laugh, as remember how I said I am a "Militant Moderate"? PoliticalChic has often accused me of being a "Far-Left Nut" because I take apart many of her arguments also. Funny, how can I be both "Far-Right" and "Far-Left" at the same time? In reality, I am a moderate. However, to anybody on the fringes of either side, I am sure I seem like a radical.

Meanwhile, I just sit back and laugh.

 

[Mushroom]

Link to that BS please?

Oh holy hell, you know NOTHING about WWII if you do not know that, and are demanding links.

Winter Line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now quite a while back I brought up the battle of Monte Cassino. Which deadlocked the Allied forces south of Rome from January to May 1944. It took over 210,000 Allied forces to finally break through that, at the loss of over 55,000. Meanwhile, the Germans lost less than 20,000 as once they started to lose ground they simply pulled back.

Almost all of Italy was a massive delaying action by the German Army. They did not care how many civilians were killed, how many Italian treasures of architecture and cultural importance were destroyed, it was not their country. They were willing to see all of it destroyed, if only to slow down the Allies and kill more of them.

Battle of Monte Cassino - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I normally do not use Wikipedia for a reference, but you seem to have forgotten everything I had ever said about the Invasion of Italy, and I am not willing to repeat it all over again. And obviously you have never learned of that part of the war, even through movies. Try watching The Audie Murphy Story, or The Big Red One. Both of which went over the Invasion of Italy.

Or you can simply look at this map. It shows the advancement through Italy, and even the territory the Allies held when the war ended when Der Paper Hangar ate a Walther Sandwich.

 

[Mushroom]

 

[westwall]

Can you comprehend that was just not possible?

There was the Alpine Range between Italy and Austria. So passage between them was impossible.

And since you are obviously geographically challenged, here is a map of Europe of the time.

Gee, look at that! Between Italy and Hungary was this country known as "Yugoslavia". And it was German Occupied.

So please tell us how they were going to go through Hungary (which was an Axis Power), without also going through Yugoslavia (which was German Occupied).

Can you not comprehend such a basic and simple concept? Going through those countries would have not only put the US and UK behind the Soviets, they would have been going through some of the most inhospitable terrain for a modern army to fight in.

I can see that you have absolutely no grasp of anything military. Instead, you simply scream and toss around insults, failing to grasp why what you wanted to see happen was impossible.

His geography knowledge is as lacking as his history.

 

[Stryder50]

Can you comprehend that was just not possible?

There was the Alpine Range between Italy and Austria. So passage between them was impossible.

And since you are obviously geographically challenged, here is a map of Europe of the time.

Gee, look at that! Between Italy and Hungary was this country known as "Yugoslavia". And it was German Occupied.

So please tell us how they were going to go through Hungary (which was an Axis Power), without also going through Yugoslavia (which was German Occupied).

Can you not comprehend such a basic and simple concept? Going through those countries would have not only put the US and UK behind the Soviets, they would have been going through some of the most inhospitable terrain for a modern army to fight in.

I can see that you have absolutely no grasp of anything military. Instead, you simply scream and toss around insults, failing to grasp why what you wanted to see happen was impossible.

Add to that the logistics complications and overly long supply lines, especially back to any adequate ports. Modern armies such as fielded by USA and UK at that time had huge supply demands, from 'bullets' and rations to POL to keep the tanks and trucks moving.

This is why Normandy was a problematic place to land/invade. NO close by ports large enough to supply the growing number of Allied divisions, and cumbersome to provide for all over beaches and improvised ones. Especially when a few days later a storm took out one of the two Mulberry's.

Not to mention, if no other operations such as in Normandy and later Southern France to distract and draw German forces/reserves, then the Allies will be a long way in space and time getting up through Italy and into Eastern Europe.

Also, it had been established at early conferences from 1942 onward that the main concentrated effort to defeat Germany would have to go through northern France.

 

[westwall]

Add to that the logistics complications and overly long supply lines, especially back to any adequate ports. Modern armies such as fielded by USA and UK at that time had huge supply demands, from 'bullets' and rations to POL to keep the tanks and trucks moving.

This is why Normandy was a problematic place to land/invade. NO close by ports large enough to supply the growing number of Allied divisions, and cumbersome to provide for all over beaches and improvised ones. Especially when a few days later a storm took out one of the two Mulberry's.

Not to mention, if no other operations such as in Normandy and later Southern France to distract and draw German forces/reserves, then the Allies will be a long way in space and time getting up through Italy and into Eastern Europe.

Also, it had been established at early conferences from 1942 onward that the main concentrated effort to defeat Germany would have to go through northern France.

What's funny, is if you look at the amount of supply being brought in, the US Quartermaster Corps. landed more equipment than the Brits did while the Mulberry's were active.

Yanks know how to move stuff!

 

[francoHFW]

Oh holy hell, you know NOTHING about WWII if you do not know that, and are demanding links.

Winter Line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now quite a while back I brought up the battle of Monte Cassino. Which deadlocked the Allied forces south of Rome from January to May 1944. It took over 210,000 Allied forces to finally break through that, at the loss of over 55,000. Meanwhile, the Germans lost less than 20,000 as once they started to lose ground they simply pulled back.

Almost all of Italy was a massive delaying action by the German Army. They did not care how many civilians were killed, how many Italian treasures of architecture and cultural importance were destroyed, it was not their country. They were willing to see all of it destroyed, if only to slow down the Allies and kill more of them.

Battle of Monte Cassino - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I normally do not use Wikipedia for a reference, but you seem to have forgotten everything I had ever said about the Invasion of Italy, and I am not willing to repeat it all over again. And obviously you have never learned of that part of the war, even through movies. Try watching The Audie Murphy Story, or The Big Red One. Both of which went over the Invasion of Italy.

Or you can simply look at this map. It shows the advancement through Italy, and even the territory the Allies held when the war ended when Der Paper Hangar ate a Walther Sandwich.

Of course I know all about the Italian campaign, and of course it is irrelevant to a hypothetical attack through Austria and Hungary with a full effort.

 

[francoHFW]

Can you comprehend that was just not possible?

There was the Alpine Range between Italy and Austria. So passage between them was impossible.

And since you are obviously geographically challenged, here is a map of Europe of the time.

Gee, look at that! Between Italy and Hungary was this country known as "Yugoslavia". And it was German Occupied.

So please tell us how they were going to go through Hungary (which was an Axis Power), without also going through Yugoslavia (which was German Occupied).

Can you not comprehend such a basic and simple concept? Going through those countries would have not only put the US and UK behind the Soviets, they would have been going through some of the most inhospitable terrain for a modern army to fight in.

I can see that you have absolutely no grasp of anything military. Instead, you simply scream and toss around insults, failing to grasp why what you wanted to see happen was impossible.

And all of them wanted to surrender to Americans rather than Russians DUHH. ... Churchill was still pushing the southern strategy in 1943 at Casablanca. That was when he got the attack on Italy and Sicily approved. Your problem is you are English speaking conservative haters who don't give a damn about the French lol... The Americans were a few miles from Austria on that map. A full effort... Churchill was not an idiot. There weren't that many Germans in Yugoslavia Greece Bulgaria etcetera and the puppet RW swine were ready to quit. Churchill was wanting to stop the Russians from taking over all the Balkans....

 

[Stryder50]

Though this thread starts with a focus on Operation Overlord/Normandy of WW2, there is a lot to consider for context and continuity, etc.

This first link gives some of the scope of MTO as part of the ETO, showing the time line spanned almost the entire of WW2 and the geographic scope as larger than the Eastern Front~Russia.

Mediterranean and Middle East theatre of World War II​

This one provides a list of 31 articles focusing on various themes and topics about the MTO;

Mediterranean Theater of Operations - The National WWII Museum​

A short item highlighting the US Army role in the MTO;

Mediterranean Theater of Operations, United States Army​

A handy reference item here showing who was where, US Army wisw;

Mediterranean Theater in World War II — US Army Divisions​

And the 'images' page resulting from the duckduckgo search page;

WW2 - Mediterranean theater of operations at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[francoHFW]

If Rommel hadn't gone home, D-Day might have looked foolish also... Or they had woken up Hitler LOL...

 

[Stryder50]

One of Churchill's "cigar dreams~schemes" that didn't work out. Underscores one of many issues complicating a shift of focus of the MTO to a 'Balkans Strategy'.
...
The Dodecanese campaign of World War II was an attempt by Allied forces to capture the Italian Dodecanese islands in the Aegean Sea following the Armistice with Italy in September 1943, and use them as bases against the German-controlled Balkans. Operating without air cover, the Allied effort was a costly failure, the whole of the Dodecanese falling to the Germans within two months.[6] The Dodecanese campaign, lasting from 8 September to 22 November 1943, resulted in one of the last major German victories in the war.[7]
...

Dodecanese campaign - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org