The "eucharist" is unbiblical

[hobelim]

At last count there were over a billion Catholics in the world. I think that may qualify as a 'we.'

John 6:63 hammers home what Jesus said earlier. In earlier verses he was saying "my" flesh and "my" blood...In 6:63 it is 'the' flesh. Two different subjects.

Christ's words of eternal life were "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood", which he teaches is present in the bread and wine. There is no contradiction--and no condemnation.

Sorry but last I heard Catholics are hardly in agreement about any church sacrament or teaching and many have absolutely no idea what they are mixed up in or that the official infallible church teaching is that the eucharist becomes the flesh of Jesus in actuality.

BTW, whenever someone refers to themselves as a we, they either think of themselves as royalty or imagine they are speaking for a crowd. Either way, the implications are significant, the prognosis, not so good.

John 6;63 where Jesus says "the flesh" he was clarifying to his disciples what he meant by saying "my flesh.". They are not two different subjects. In 6:68 the disciples confirmed their acceptance of this explanation, that my flesh, the flesh, is irrelevant. The spirit alone gives life; the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are both spirit and life. No bread necessary, to hand out like a cheap snack food when the bread from heaven, the flesh of Jesus is simply a figurative expression for the words that he spoke, the teaching he received from God and gave for the life of the world that has to be spoken to be given and heard to be received.

"Lord to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life. We have faith and know that you are the Holy One of God."


When Jesus said, "do this in memory of me", was he telling people to eat him in the form of a matzo with blood in the form of wine during an irrational roman ritual ceremony, or was he commanding his disciples to bear witness to the truth, in memory of him, of the revelation he received from God and shared with them about the only righteous way to understand and comply with the divine commands that leads to eternal life even if it means you will die a horrible death?

"Take care then how you listen, for he who has will be given more and he who has not will lose even what he thinks he has."

That command, do this in memory of me, is a test that results in a curse if failed. " Why do you think Jesus kept pleading with his disciples to pray to be spared the test? as soon as Judas received the bread, Satan entered him."

"This, he told me, is the curse which is sent out over all the world; for by the writing on one side every thief shall be swept clean away, and by the writing on the other, every perjurer shall be swept clean away. I have sent it out, the Lord of Hosts has said, and it shall enter the house of the thief and the house of the man who has perjured himself in my name. It shall stay inside that house and demolish it, timbers and stones and all."

 

[guno]

Strong words from Jeremiah 25 you have cited, but can it be applied universally to all sinners and all times? I hope not. As far as the Holy Eucharist is concerned, here however, St. Paul speaks of partaking in the sacrament unworthily..

It is no small coincidence that Jeremiah is referring to a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine sent through the nations beginning in Jerusalem which parallels the words of Jesus in giving the so called great commission, not to mention the cup given at the last supper, and the verse also identifies the sword that Jesus said he came to bring as such, a curse.

The body of Christ, is a metaphor for the words that Jesus received from God like manna from heaven that became his flesh, a metaphor for teaching.

The Body of Christ, the words that Jesus received from God that form the body of his teaching, bread from heaven, the food of angels, must be " eaten by hearing and chewed over by the understanding and digested by faith." Tertullian.

Paul was referring to those who partake in a communal meal without discerning the subject of the body of Christ, (the divine revelation that Jesus received about how to correctly understand and comply with the divine commands that results in the eternal life promised), eat and drink judgment upon themselves and go mad by thinking and teaching others that the Body of Christ is something edible made by human hands, which is perjury in the name of God and a brazen desecration of the teachings of Jesus.

Paul wrote: --- “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” That is not referring to any common meal. Nor does one die because of their unworthiness by eating any old meal. This has no theological reason to it.

John 6 is pretty clear. --- Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?


The apostles would not be troubled if Jesus was speaking symbolically, nor would the “Jews” become disturbed by this preaching and leave Him. No, this is clear, Jesus said “unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”…. because…. “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” That is also what St. Paul was clearly speaking of as well.

“unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”

christer cannibals

 

[turzovka]

Strong words from Jeremiah 25 you have cited, but can it be applied universally to all sinners and all times? I hope not. As far as the Holy Eucharist is concerned, here however, St. Paul speaks of partaking in the sacrament unworthily..

It is no small coincidence that Jeremiah is referring to a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine sent through the nations beginning in Jerusalem which parallels the words of Jesus in giving the so called great commission, not to mention the cup given at the last supper, and the verse also identifies the sword that Jesus said he came to bring as such, a curse.

The body of Christ, is a metaphor for the words that Jesus received from God like manna from heaven that became his flesh, a metaphor for teaching.

The Body of Christ, the words that Jesus received from God that form the body of his teaching, bread from heaven, the food of angels, must be " eaten by hearing and chewed over by the understanding and digested by faith." Tertullian.

Paul was referring to those who partake in a communal meal without discerning the subject of the body of Christ, (the divine revelation that Jesus received about how to correctly understand and comply with the divine commands that results in the eternal life promised), eat and drink judgment upon themselves and go mad by thinking and teaching others that the Body of Christ is something edible made by human hands, which is perjury in the name of God and a brazen desecration of the teachings of Jesus.

Paul wrote: --- “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” That is not referring to any common meal. Nor does one die because of their unworthiness by eating any old meal. This has no theological reason to it.

John 6 is pretty clear. --- Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?


The apostles would not be troubled if Jesus was speaking symbolically, nor would the “Jews” become disturbed by this preaching and leave Him. No, this is clear, Jesus said “unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”…. because…. “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” That is also what St. Paul was clearly speaking of as well.

“unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”

christer cannibals

What do you think comes across our minds when we see your endless blindness?

Pity.

 

[hobelim]

What do you think comes across our minds when we see your endless blindness?

Pity.

How is it possible that you can openly profess beliefs and openly engage in practices that scripture clearly teaches results in 'the death', divine condemnation, and see nothing wrong with it at all and in fact claim that by doing so you will not die but live forever unless it is evidence that you are already under the condemnation of God..?

Talk about endless blindness....

You have your reward already!

 

[turzovka]

What do you think comes across our minds when we see your endless blindness?

Pity.

How is it possible that you can openly profess beliefs and openly engage in practices that scripture clearly teaches results in 'the death', divine condemnation, and see nothing wrong with it at all and in fact claim that by doing so you will not die but live forever unless it is evidence that you are already under the condemnation of God..

Talk about endless blindness....

You have your reward already!

I don't even know what you are talking about.

I don't even know what you believe, but I can see you are more than eager to try to slay Catholic teaching by finding a verse that tips over the whole apple cart. it doesn't work like that. You might be able to satisfy yourself by putting your finger in one hole in the dike, but you have a hundred other holes you have no answer for.

Your defense against the divinity of the Eucharist was underwhelming to say the least. Not unlike desperate attempts by you and others to explain away the miracle at Fatima, the miracle at Lourdes, the image of Guadalupe, the 250,000 Egyptians witnessing the Virgin atop the Cathedral at Zeitoun, and the holding onto a tree branch against a raging rapids by telling us "but the carbon dating said it was a fake" in reference to the divine image on the Shroud of Turin.

Catholicism does not need the Bible to witness to a rebellious world. God is witnessing for us in His signs and wonders. But as Jesus said --- "an evil age is eager for a sign, but no sign will be given it except for that of Jonah." In other words, signs are given but they refuse to believe because they do not want to believe.

 

[hobelim]

I don't even know what you are talking about.



Catholicism does not need the Bible to witness to a rebellious world. .

Damn.

The practice most central to Catholicism, Eucharistic adoration, the worship of a lifeless object made by human hands in the hope of receiving eternal life by eating it, is an act of open rebellion against God, a violation of his Law, and a desecration of the teachings of Jesus, the actual Body of Christ, not to mention insane.



It is a brazen violation of the first commandment and to teach others to do the same amounts to murder.

I don't have to prove anything that you openly admit to. That you fail to grasp the evil nature of what you are openly devoted to only confirms that the law of God remains in effect and is in full force.

And the fact that you have done absolutely nothing to save your soul from the deeper implications of present events suggests that you have already been abandoned to your folly like all those unfortunate souls who have confused faith with obstinate stupidity.

Unless you repent, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[guno]

Strong words from Jeremiah 25 you have cited, but can it be applied universally to all sinners and all times? I hope not. As far as the Holy Eucharist is concerned, here however, St. Paul speaks of partaking in the sacrament unworthily..

It is no small coincidence that Jeremiah is referring to a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine sent through the nations beginning in Jerusalem which parallels the words of Jesus in giving the so called great commission, not to mention the cup given at the last supper, and the verse also identifies the sword that Jesus said he came to bring as such, a curse.

The body of Christ, is a metaphor for the words that Jesus received from God like manna from heaven that became his flesh, a metaphor for teaching.

The Body of Christ, the words that Jesus received from God that form the body of his teaching, bread from heaven, the food of angels, must be " eaten by hearing and chewed over by the understanding and digested by faith." Tertullian.

Paul was referring to those who partake in a communal meal without discerning the subject of the body of Christ, (the divine revelation that Jesus received about how to correctly understand and comply with the divine commands that results in the eternal life promised), eat and drink judgment upon themselves and go mad by thinking and teaching others that the Body of Christ is something edible made by human hands, which is perjury in the name of God and a brazen desecration of the teachings of Jesus.

Paul wrote: --- “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” That is not referring to any common meal. Nor does one die because of their unworthiness by eating any old meal. This has no theological reason to it.

John 6 is pretty clear. --- Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?


The apostles would not be troubled if Jesus was speaking symbolically, nor would the “Jews” become disturbed by this preaching and leave Him. No, this is clear, Jesus said “unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”…. because…. “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” That is also what St. Paul was clearly speaking of as well.

“unless you eat the fles of the Son of man and drink his blood”

christer cannibals

What do you think comes across our minds when we see your endless blindness?

Pity.

So the cracker literally becomes jesus and you eat it, does that include his balls and anus?

 

[ninja007]

The other point I will address is that Jesus was speaking only figuratively or using metaphors when he commanded we eat his body (present in the bread) and drink his blood (present in the wine).

We can see in Old Testament writings that using such figurative language would mean to destroy a person. Is Jesus telling his disciples to destroy him, and to destroy him for eternal life at that?

so you are agreeing with me it is symbolic?

 

[ninja007]

[ Christ.... and this we believe. In it there is a lifting up, a transcendence, the life promised to us by Christ.

How many of you are there?

Y'all have confused being placed under the condemnation of God with an uplifting experience.

Nothing made by human hands could ever become the body, blood, soul or divinity of Christ.

Believing in such a thing does not make it less of a lie.

"Lord, to whom shall we go? your words are words of eternal life. We have faith and know that you are the Holy One of God."

What you believe contradicts the words of Jesus and what the disciples confirmed that they believed in john 6:68 about flesh and living bread from heaven being symbolic for the words that he spoke as Jesus clearly explained in John 6:63..

How could you possibly expect to avoid the condemnation of hell in either this world or the next?

At last count there were over a billion Catholics in the world. I think that may qualify as a 'we.'

John 6:63 hammers home what Jesus said earlier. In earlier verses he was saying "my" flesh and "my" blood...In 6:63 it is 'the' flesh. Two different subjects.

Christ's words of eternal life were "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood", which he teaches is present in the bread and wine. There is no contradiction--and no condemnation.

He is not speaking literally. Jesus was still with them. If He meant it literally, as you contend- they would have gladly started to eat Jesus.

 

[hobelim]

He is not speaking literally. Jesus was still with them. If He meant it literally, as you contend- they would have gladly started to eat Jesus.

If one takes into account that immediately before, according to the story, Jesus was trying to tell his disciples that the jig was up and he was about to be taken away and killed and they started arguing among themselves about who was going to be the greatest in some earthly government, that told Jesus two things, they didn't understand a word of what he had said and they didn't give a flying fuck about him which gives this "Here, eat this," command a whole nother meaning...


"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

 

[ninja007]

Matthew 26:29 ►

New International Version
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

 

[Meriweather]

so you are agreeing with me it is symbolic?

Quite the opposite. I am pointing out why Jesus would not use symbolic language. This metaphor was already in use, and it meant eternal destruction.

 

[hobelim]

so you are agreeing with me it is symbolic?

Quite the opposite. I am pointing out why Jesus would not use symbolic language. This metaphor was already in use, and it meant eternal destruction.

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language;" John 16:25

Jesus said this after the last supper and after all that talk about flesh and blood, raising the dead, restoring sight to the blind, living bread from heaven, etc.

I think you really need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Meriweather]

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language;" John 16:25

Jesus said this after the last supper and after all that talk about flesh and blood, raising the dead, restoring sight to the blind, living bread from heaven, etc.

I think you really need to go back to the drawing board.

First: While the other Gospel writers used the word, "Parable", John used another word, which we translate as "figure of speech." Their meaning is close to the same.

He first used figurative in 10:6, when he was speaking about the Good Shepherd. This was four chapters after the Bread of Life discourses. Six chapters later (ten chapters after the Bread of Life discourses), John uses the term again. Jesus had been speaking of the Vine and the Branches, and a woman in labor.

I understand that you see more of John's Gospel as figuratively, but I suspect you do not see the entire Gospel as figurative. Jesus was well-known for speaking in parables, but the Bread of Life discourses do not follow his usual parable format. Nor, do the other three accounts of the Last Supper treat, "This is my body" and "This is my blood" the way they treated other parables.

 

[hobelim]

I understand that you see more of John's Gospel as figuratively, but I suspect you do not see the entire Gospel as figurative. Jesus was well-known for speaking in parables, but the Bread of Life discourses do not follow his usual parable format. Nor, do the other three accounts of the Last Supper treat, "This is my body" and "This is my blood" the way they treated other parables.

Just as in the Law, how one interprets the meaning determines the way in which it is applied, right or wrong, and consequently receive a blessing or a curse.

There is the superficial literal interpretation of the words which define the subjects accordingly and there are the deeper implications that define subjects that are hidden and not directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used.

Here lies the test.



That Jesus established bread as figurative for teaching well before the last supper is shown in Matthew 16:6-12;

Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And they began discussing it among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.” But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


The metaphor for bread as teaching is further buried and figuratively transformed into flesh in John 6:51:


"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

bread= teaching = flesh..... and in John 6:63 Jesus restores flesh into words. and equates those words with life. "The flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken are both spirit and life."


Hear if you have ears to hear.

"The kingdom of Heaven is like treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it, buried it again."

 

[ninja007]

SO a sinful man (Priest) can do this, eh? How and where in the Bible does it mention this?



Acts 1:11-

New International Version

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

There is no need for Jesus to "come down" and be resacrificed again and again....


"...Jesus [also] became the guarantee of an [even] better covenant...He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for His own sins and then for those of the people; He did that once for all when He offered Himself". (Hebrews 7:22.


To have Priests call down Jesus (they cannot) shows that they do not believe enough in Jesus' one time, perfect sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

 

[ninja007]

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God" (2 Corinthians 3:5).

 

[guno]

"How many Christians realize that when they eat that wafer and drink the wine during communion service that they, in effect, practice cannibalism by the partaking in the eating of human flesh and blood?

I certainly did not know that when I underwent communion in my religious days. It sounds so innocent and benign; "Communion" imparts the concept of sharing thoughts and feelings, or so I thought. Oh how the priests fooled me. They used other obscure terms too, like "Eucharist" and "Sacrament of the Last Supper." At no time did a priest or deacon explain to me that I would share in the communal eating of the human flesh and blood of Jesus.

Cannibal: A person who eats the flesh of human beings.

Since Jesus represents an actual human being, and I ate him, that made me a cannibal. And if you have ever undergone communion, then you too fall into that category.

The Church tricked me and turned me into a cannibal!

Not only did I drink blood and eat flesh, but they made me do it in front of a statue of a bloody corpse hanging by nails on two pieces of lumber, a representation of the human whom I had just eaten. (Imagine eating a hamburger in front of an image of a freshly slain cow.)"

Christian Cannibals

 

[Meriweather]

"How many Christians realize that when they eat that wafer and drink the wine during communion service that they, in effect, practice cannibalism by the partaking in the eating of human flesh and blood?

I certainly did not know that when I underwent communion in my religious days. It sounds so innocent and benign; "Communion" imparts the concept of sharing thoughts and feelings, or so I thought. Oh how the priests fooled me. They used other obscure terms too, like "Eucharist" and "Sacrament of the Last Supper." At no time did a priest or deacon explain to me that I would share in the communal eating of the human flesh and blood of Jesus.

Cannibal: A person who eats the flesh of human beings.

Since Jesus represents an actual human being, and I ate him, that made me a cannibal. And if you have ever undergone communion, then you too fall into that category.

The Church tricked me and turned me into a cannibal!

Not only did I drink blood and eat flesh, but they made me do it in front of a statue of a bloody corpse hanging by nails on two pieces of lumber, a representation of the human whom I had just eaten. (Imagine eating a hamburger in front of an image of a freshly slain cow.)"

Be at ease. By definition a cannibal consumes dead flesh, and then that flesh is no more.

Christ said he would nourishes us with his living flesh, and of course, remains just as alive after he has fed us as he is before. His body, blood, soul, and divinity nourishes us. Would you call a nursing baby a cannibal? After nourishing the baby isn't the mother just as alive before as after?

The picture of a mother nourishing her infant is a more accurate picture of the Eucharist than envisioning cannibals. (Didn't say it was the most accurate...just more accurate than cannibals. )

 

[ninja007]

"How many Christians realize that when they eat that wafer and drink the wine during communion service that they, in effect, practice cannibalism by the partaking in the eating of human flesh and blood?

I certainly did not know that when I underwent communion in my religious days. It sounds so innocent and benign; "Communion" imparts the concept of sharing thoughts and feelings, or so I thought. Oh how the priests fooled me. They used other obscure terms too, like "Eucharist" and "Sacrament of the Last Supper." At no time did a priest or deacon explain to me that I would share in the communal eating of the human flesh and blood of Jesus.

Cannibal: A person who eats the flesh of human beings.

Since Jesus represents an actual human being, and I ate him, that made me a cannibal. And if you have ever undergone communion, then you too fall into that category.

The Church tricked me and turned me into a cannibal!

Not only did I drink blood and eat flesh, but they made me do it in front of a statue of a bloody corpse hanging by nails on two pieces of lumber, a representation of the human whom I had just eaten. (Imagine eating a hamburger in front of an image of a freshly slain cow.)"

Be at ease. By definition a cannibal consumes dead flesh, and then that flesh is no more.

Christ said he would nourishes us with his living flesh, and of course, remains just as alive after he has fed us as he is before. His body, blood, soul, and divinity nourishes us. Would you call a nursing baby a cannibal? After nourishing the baby isn't the mother just as alive before as after?

The picture of a mother nourishing her infant is a more accurate picture of the Eucharist than envisioning cannibals. (Didn't say it was the most accurate...just more accurate than cannibals. )

He nourishes us with His Word.