The End Of The Warrior Culture?

[SFC Ollie]

Callie is an aberration. Soldiers who show signs of abnormal desire for killing are subject to an evaluation and perhaps rehabilitation then if unresponsive discharge. For example:

"1-16. Counseling and rehabilitative requirements

a. General. Army leaders at all levels must be continually aware of their obligation to provide purpose, direction, and motivation to Soldiers. It is essential that Soldiers who falter, but have the potential to serve honorably and well, be given every opportunity to succeed. Effective leadership is particularly important in the case of Soldiers serving their initial enlistments. Except as otherwise indicated in this regulation, commanders must make maximum use of counseling and rehabilitation before determining that a Soldier has no potential for further useful service and, therefore, should be separated. In this regard, commanders will ensure that adequate counseling and rehabilitative measures are taken before initiating separation proceedings for the following reasons:



(2) Personality disorder. (See para 5-13.)

(3) Other designated physical or mental conditions. (See para 5-17)"

Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations

While not fool proof there are provisions which commanders must take into consideration.

Good old AR 635-200. I was a battery clerk in the army and I did the paper work for a many discharges under AR 635=208.

I realize I may sound disrespectful but that is not my intention.

The military, nowdays is put on a pedestal, mainly because of neocon propaganda. Most people nowdays are afraid to criticize the military.

Only now after many years are more female soldiers reporting rapes which they were afraid to do in the past because of retaliation from superior officers.

My whole feeling ion this subject is that this country is getting to be like the roman empire before it's fall.

There is nothing in the constitution about the US being the world's policeman.
I even think we should get rid of the all volunteer forces and bring back the draft before we become a banana republic.

"Neocon propaganda" is not the main cause for the the military's status today. The military was on a pedestal during and after WWII and enjoyed that until Vietnam. The current outflow of sentiment toward the military started after 9/11; people want and need to be protected, that is what the military represents. People celebrate and exalt their protectors, the public values their military.

Valid point....I retired in 93 after 22 years on active duty. The first time someone said thank you was after 9-11....

 

[Connery]

Good old AR 635-200. I was a battery clerk in the army and I did the paper work for a many discharges under AR 635=208.

I realize I may sound disrespectful but that is not my intention.

The military, nowdays is put on a pedestal, mainly because of neocon propaganda. Most people nowdays are afraid to criticize the military.

Only now after many years are more female soldiers reporting rapes which they were afraid to do in the past because of retaliation from superior officers.

My whole feeling ion this subject is that this country is getting to be like the roman empire before it's fall.

There is nothing in the constitution about the US being the world's policeman.
I even think we should get rid of the all volunteer forces and bring back the draft before we become a banana republic.

"Neocon propaganda" is not the main cause for the the military's status today. The military was on a pedestal during and after WWII and enjoyed that until Vietnam. The current outflow of sentiment toward the military started after 9/11; people want and need to be protected, that is what the military represents. People celebrate and exalt their protectors, the public values their military.

Valid point....I retired in 93 after 22 years on active duty. The first time someone said thank you was after 9-11....

I am on base everyday for one reason or another. The pride has never been higher and off post the gratitude from civilians never more heartfelt.

 

[regent]

"Neocon propaganda" is not the main cause for the the military's status today. The military was on a pedestal during and after WWII and enjoyed that until Vietnam. The current outflow of sentiment toward the military started after 9/11; people want and need to be protected, that is what the military represents. People celebrate and exalt their protectors, the public values their military.

Valid point....I retired in 93 after 22 years on active duty. The first time someone said thank you was after 9-11....

I am on base everyday for one reason or another. The pride has never been higher and off post the gratitude from civilians never more heartfelt.

Kipling wrote a poem about that gratitude, how it comes and goes with the danger felt. Old timers told me of bars before WWII with signs, No Dogs Or Soldiers.

 

[Mushroom]

Only now after many years are more female soldiers reporting rapes which they were afraid to do in the past because of retaliation from superior officers.

And never mind the fact that most victims of sexual assault in the military are men.

But in a debate that has focused largely on women, this fact is often overlooked: the majority of service members who are sexually assaulted each year are men.

In its latest report on sexual assault, the Pentagon estimated that 26,000 service members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2012, up from 19,000 in 2010. Of those cases, the Pentagon says, 53 percent involved attacks on men, mostly by other men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So maybe, just maybe, there has been no change in rape numbers at all, it is just that more men are coming out with what happened to them? Hmmm?

 

[Mushroom]

The Military doesn't need propaganda. Forty years ago the radical left was spitting on and assaulting Soldiers in uniform. Now it seems that political expediency or guilt has caused the left to pretend that they support the Military as long as a radical leftie is in the White House.

What do you mean 40 years ago? It still happens today. Almost every other day I get some comment about "butcher", "killer", or "what is it like to rape and kill innocent women?" (yes somebody actually asked me that a few weeks ago). I even had one come up to me after seeing my Right Shoulder Sleeve Insignia (commonly called the "Combat Patch) and proceeded to chew me out for operating "nuclear missiles".

I tried to explain to her I worked in missile defense, and ran a PATRIOT missile launcher, and she proceeded to say that was even worse, and that PATRIOT missile systems are killing innocent women and children all over Afghanistan.

Of course, I also work in the wonderfully tolerant bastion of Liberalism, Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco), so it never really surprises me.

I have been spit upon and assaulted, a few weeks ago somebody was riding less then 10 feet from my back tire flashing his headlights and honking as he was giving me the middle finger and shouting. All while going 60 mph on the freeway. Of course, I remember that before I passed him the back of his car was full of the expected hippie-dippie bumperstickers that told me he was a member of the braindead left.

I could literally fill a book of stories of all the morons like that I have run into over the last 6 years (and even more in the last 2). And like so many in uniform as well as veterans, when I hear a liberal say they "support the troops", 80% of the time I want to reach back and cover my butt because I know they want to screw me.

And to be fair, there are however some who I do actually trust on the Left. Joe Lieberman is an example, which is probably why the Democrats threw him out of their party.

 

[Snookie]

Only now after many years are more female soldiers reporting rapes which they were afraid to do in the past because of retaliation from superior officers.

And never mind the fact that most victims of sexual assault in the military are men.

But in a debate that has focused largely on women, this fact is often overlooked: the majority of service members who are sexually assaulted each year are men.

In its latest report on sexual assault, the Pentagon estimated that 26,000 service members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2012, up from 19,000 in 2010. Of those cases, the Pentagon says, 53 percent involved attacks on men, mostly by other men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So maybe, just maybe, there has been no change in rape numbers at all, it is just that more men are coming out with what happened to them? Hmmm?

Perverts.

 

[Snookie]

The Military doesn't need propaganda. Forty years ago the radical left was spitting on and assaulting Soldiers in uniform. Now it seems that political expediency or guilt has caused the left to pretend that they support the Military as long as a radical leftie is in the White House.

What do you mean 40 years ago? It still happens today. Almost every other day I get some comment about "butcher", "killer", or "what is it like to rape and kill innocent women?" (yes somebody actually asked me that a few weeks ago). I even had one come up to me after seeing my Right Shoulder Sleeve Insignia (commonly called the "Combat Patch) and proceeded to chew me out for operating "nuclear missiles".

I tried to explain to her I worked in missile defense, and ran a PATRIOT missile launcher, and she proceeded to say that was even worse, and that PATRIOT missile systems are killing innocent women and children all over Afghanistan.

Of course, I also work in the wonderfully tolerant bastion of Liberalism, Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco), so it never really surprises me.

I have been spit upon and assaulted, a few weeks ago somebody was riding less then 10 feet from my back tire flashing his headlights and honking as he was giving me the middle finger and shouting. All while going 60 mph on the freeway. Of course, I remember that before I passed him the back of his car was full of the expected hippie-dippie bumperstickers that told me he was a member of the braindead left.

I could literally fill a book of stories of all the morons like that I have run into over the last 6 years (and even more in the last 2). And like so many in uniform as well as veterans, when I hear a liberal say they "support the troops", 80% of the time I want to reach back and cover my butt because I know they want to screw me.

And to be fair, there are however some who I do actually trust on the Left. Joe Lieberman is an example, which is probably why the Democrats threw him out of their party.

So sad for you.

 

[Snookie]

Only now after many years are more female soldiers reporting rapes which they were afraid to do in the past because of retaliation from superior officers.

And never mind the fact that most victims of sexual assault in the military are men.

But in a debate that has focused largely on women, this fact is often overlooked: the majority of service members who are sexually assaulted each year are men.

In its latest report on sexual assault, the Pentagon estimated that 26,000 service members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2012, up from 19,000 in 2010. Of those cases, the Pentagon says, 53 percent involved attacks on men, mostly by other men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So maybe, just maybe, there has been no change in rape numbers at all, it is just that more men are coming out with what happened to them? Hmmm?

Your post is a perfect example of deception.

Pentagon report: Sexual assault in the military up dramatically

14% of the services, only, are women. How misleading can you get?

 

[Mushroom]

So sad for you.

You know what is really funny? You seem to think I give a shit.

And yea, that moron on the freeway really did scare the crap outta me. When you are on a motorcycle and it looks like somebody is going to run you over, it is not something we find funny. And having to suddenly start splitting lanes at 70 mph to put some safety distance between yourself and the crazy person is not fun either.

But let me guess, I should crawl into the "military closet" so things like this do not happen to me again, right?

 

[Snookie]

So sad for you.

You know what is really funny? You seem to think I give a shit.

And yea, that moron on the freeway really did scare the crap outta me. When you are on a motorcycle and it looks like somebody is going to run you over, it is not something we find funny. And having to suddenly start splitting lanes at 70 mph to put some safety distance between yourself and the crazy person is not fun either.

But let me guess, I should crawl into the "military closet" so things like this do not happen to me again, right?

I don't give a shit.

 

[Mushroom]

Your post is a perfect example of deception.

OK, let me get this straight... you are taking a blurb from a politician over a year ago, over Pentagon released statistics from 3 months ago?

When the Defense Department released the results of its anonymous sexual abuse survey this month and concluded that 26,000 service members were victims in fiscal 2012, which ended Sept. 30, an automatic assumption was that most were women. But roughly 14,000 of the victims were male and 12,000 female, according to a scientific survey sample produced by the Pentagon.

Victims of sex assaults in military are mostly men - Washington Times

Now please tell us again how 95% are female, and that we should believe anything you say? This is a perfect example of cherry picking facts to support your claim, and completely ignoring much more recent facts.

Oh, and seeing as I was one of my unit's Sexual Assault Representatives, let me fill you in a little more on these statistics and what they mean.

First of all, the military does not track them by sex most of the time. This is because the majority of the reports are "Restricted", which means only the individual, medical personnel, and who it was reported through (like myself or the chaplain) ever know. No reports of the perp's name is ever made. And this is at the request of the victim!

Also, these reported sexual assaults are only filed if the victim who is raped is in the military. If a civilian rapes somebody in the military, it is a "military rape". We had one in my last unit (I can talk about it - he filed unrestricted) who was slipped a drug cocktail in a club, and woke up while he was being raped in his car a few miles away. He got away, the cops got the rapist (a male gang member). Guess how this was reported?

Yep, you got it, a "military rape". Never mind that the rapist was a civilian, it is the victim that is tracked as military.

And on at least 3 occasions I screened reports that were spousal rape, male boyfriend/husband who is a civilian, female soldier who was raped. Yep, military rape.

We also had a serial rapist they were trying to catch when I was deployed. He was responsible for at least 15 rapes (if I remember 10 women and 5 men), and all reported as once again "military rapes in a war zone". However, they suspect he was a TCN because he was Middle Eastern and had a beard.

And they did catch one guy who had raped at least 3 women on base, a civilian contractor.

I suggest you take some time and familiarize yourself with how the military does things today. This is no longer 1967, and you are apparently working with 40 year old knowledge and inaccurate information.

Reporting Option | Military Rape Crisis Center

 

[SFC Ollie]

I was a Platoon Sergeant for three different platoons during my career. And I cannot tell you how careful we had to be to be certain that sexual charges could not and would not be brought against us.

During an in ranks inspection we had to request permission from the soldier to touch their uniform to make an adjustment, male or female. There is a regulation that states how high above the knee a female Dress uniform skirt can be. As a male platoon Sergeant i had to have a female Sergeant measure the skirts because i was not permitted to touch them.

 

[Samson]

So sad for you.

You know what is really funny? You seem to think I give a shit.

And yea, that moron on the freeway really did scare the crap outta me. When you are on a motorcycle and it looks like somebody is going to run you over, it is not something we find funny. And having to suddenly start splitting lanes at 70 mph to put some safety distance between yourself and the crazy person is not fun either.

But let me guess, I should crawl into the "military closet" so things like this do not happen to me again, right?

I don't give a shit.

(just in case everyone hasn't already figured this out)

Snookie....hmmmmmm.......sound like Snouter to me...up to your old tricks, huh....



I won't tell.

 

[R.C. Christian]

You know what is really funny? You seem to think I give a shit.

And yea, that moron on the freeway really did scare the crap outta me. When you are on a motorcycle and it looks like somebody is going to run you over, it is not something we find funny. And having to suddenly start splitting lanes at 70 mph to put some safety distance between yourself and the crazy person is not fun either.

But let me guess, I should crawl into the "military closet" so things like this do not happen to me again, right?

I don't give a shit.

(just in case everyone hasn't already figured this out)

Snookie....hmmmmmm.......sound like Snouter to me...up to your old tricks, huh....



I won't tell.

FAIL^^^Tracey Andrus.

 

[Snookie]

Your post is a perfect example of deception.

OK, let me get this straight... you are taking a blurb from a politician over a year ago, over Pentagon released statistics from 3 months ago?

The report I linked to was from the Pentagon.

When the Defense Department released the results of its anonymous sexual abuse survey this month and concluded that 26,000 service members were victims in fiscal 2012, which ended Sept. 30, an automatic assumption was that most were women. But roughly 14,000 of the victims were male and 12,000 female, according to a scientific survey sample produced by the Pentagon.

Victims of sex assaults in military are mostly men - Washington Times

Now please tell us again how 95% are female, and that we should believe anything you say? This is a perfect example of cherry picking facts to support your claim, and completely ignoring much more recent facts.

Oh, and seeing as I was one of my unit's Sexual Assault Representatives, let me fill you in a little more on these statistics and what they mean.



Also, these reported sexual assaults are only filed if the victim who is raped is in the military. If a civilian rapes somebody in the military, it is a "military rape". We had one in my last unit (I can talk about it - he filed unrestricted) who was slipped a drug cocktail in a club, and woke up while he was being raped in his car a few miles away. He got away, the cops got the rapist (a male gang member). Guess how this was reported?

Yep, you got it, a "military rape". Never mind that the rapist was a civilian, it is the victim that is tracked as military.

And on at least 3 occasions I screened reports that were spousal rape, male boyfriend/husband who is a civilian, female soldier who was raped. Yep, military rape.

We also had a serial rapist they were trying to catch when I was deployed. He was responsible for at least 15 rapes (if I remember 10 women and 5 men), and all reported as once again "military rapes in a war zone". However, they suspect he was a TCN because he was Middle Eastern and had a beard.

And they did catch one guy who had raped at least 3 women on base, a civilian contractor.

I suggest you take some time and familiarize yourself with how the military does things today. This is no longer 1967, and you are apparently working with 40 year old knowledge and inaccurate information.

Reporting Option | Military Rape Crisis Center

First of all, the military does not track them by sex most of the time. This is because the majority of the reports are "Restricted", which means only the individual, medical personnel, and who it was reported through (like myself or the chaplain) ever know. No reports of the perp's name is ever made. And this is at the request of the victim!

"Military does not track them by sex most of the time". How convenient!

 

[Mushroom]

First of all, the military does not track them by sex most of the time. This is because the majority of the reports are "Restricted", which means only the individual, medical personnel, and who it was reported through (like myself or the chaplain) ever know. No record of the perp's name is ever made. And this is at the request of the victim!

"Military does not track them by sex most of the time". How convenient!

Are you honestly this stupid, or being purposefully ignorant?

When somebody comes to me and says they wanted to make a restricted report, the only thing I put down on the paperwork which goes up the Chain of Command is that somebody was sexually assaulted.

Period.

No name, no sex, no location, nothing that could identify the perp or victim to anybody. It is impossible for the military to keep a record simply because there is no record to keep track of!

Now if you have an issue with this, then we can go back to the old way, would that make you happier? No more restricted reports, the moment somebody is sexually assaulted the only way they can get help (physical or psychological) is to make a full report through JAG and up the chain of command. Then everybody and their brother knows who was assaulted, when, where, and by who.

We have seen that the restricted reporting system has gown at an alarming rate over the last few years, but we think it is more a situation of more people coming forward, not that the incidents are getting any more common. And most of these reports are restricted, because the people do not want the shame of having this become public knowledge.

Did you even bother to look at the link I gave you earlier?

No, of course you did not. Why bother, since you so obviously know everything, right?

When somebody comes to me to report such an incident, and they inform me they want the report restricted, I can't ask them anything. I can't tell anybody else other then the other SARC-VA, the senior medical officer of the unit, and the Chaplain who the victim is. And the only thing I tell the Chain of Command is that a sexual assault had happened.

Period.

But if it makes Snooky happy, let's just throw away the entire Restricted Reporting system, eh? Now when somebody reports a rape, everybody knows about it.

You sit on your goddam high horse, acting like a pompous jackass, and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And when I try to inform you and tell you how it works, you give some kind of smart ass comment like that. And yes, it pisses me the fuck off. Because I have been such a counselor for my unit, and I have helped these people after something like that happened to them. And most of these cases I could never discuss because at the victims request they were restricted reports.

And one of the most frustrating parts was knowing that one person had assaulted at least 3 others, but not being able to say anything about it because none of them would file unrestricted reports.

 

[Snookie]

First of all, the military does not track them by sex most of the time. This is because the majority of the reports are "Restricted", which means only the individual, medical personnel, and who it was reported through (like myself or the chaplain) ever know. No record of the perp's name is ever made. And this is at the request of the victim!

"Military does not track them by sex most of the time". How convenient!

Are you honestly this stupid, or being purposefully ignorant?

When somebody comes to me and says they wanted to make a restricted report, the only thing I put down on the paperwork which goes up the Chain of Command is that somebody was sexually assaulted.

Period.

No name, no sex, no location, nothing that could identify the perp or victim to anybody. It is impossible for the military to keep a record simply because there is no record to keep track of!

Now if you have an issue with this, then we can go back to the old way, would that make you happier? No more restricted reports, the moment somebody is sexually assaulted the only way they can get help (physical or psychological) is to make a full report through JAG and up the chain of command. Then everybody and their brother knows who was assaulted, when, where, and by who.

We have seen that the restricted reporting system has gown at an alarming rate over the last few years, but we think it is more a situation of more people coming forward, not that the incidents are getting any more common. And most of these reports are restricted, because the people do not want the shame of having this become public knowledge.

Did you even bother to look at the link I gave you earlier?

No, of course you did not. Why bother, since you so obviously know everything, right?

When somebody comes to me to report such an incident, and they inform me they want the report restricted, I can't ask them anything. I can't tell anybody else other then the other SARC-VA, the senior medical officer of the unit, and the Chaplain who the victim is. And the only thing I tell the Chain of Command is that a sexual assault had happened.

Period.

But if it makes Snooky happy, let's just throw away the entire Restricted Reporting system, eh? Now when somebody reports a rape, everybody knows about it.

You sit on your goddam high horse, acting like a pompous jackass, and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And when I try to inform you and tell you how it works, you give some kind of smart ass comment like that. And yes, it pisses me the fuck off. Because I have been such a counselor for my unit, and I have helped these people after something like that happened to them. And most of these cases I could never discuss because at the victims request they were restricted reports.

And one of the most frustrating parts was knowing that one person had assaulted at least 3 others, but not being able to say anything about it because none of them would file unrestricted reports.

According to you, secrecy is the answer. Sure to protect the guilty.

This type of incident should be reported on the "Morning Report".

 

[Mushroom]

According to you, secrecy is the answer. Sure to protect the guilty.

This type of incident should be reported on the "Morning Report".

The incident itself is reported, but not the victim or the perp at the victim's own request.

So to you, the wishes of the victim are irrelevant, right? You do not care at all for the victims of sexual assault.

That is sad.

 

[Snookie]

According to you, secrecy is the answer. Sure to protect the guilty.

This type of incident should be reported on the "Morning Report".

The incident itself is reported, but not the victim or the perp at the victim's own request.

So to you, the wishes of the victim are irrelevant, right? You do not care at all for the victims of sexual assault.

That is sad.

Your words not mine. To the contrary, sweeping the problem under the rug, like the military, does not solve a thing.

 

[Mushroom]

According to you, secrecy is the answer. Sure to protect the guilty.

This type of incident should be reported on the "Morning Report".

The incident itself is reported, but not the victim or the perp at the victim's own request.

So to you, the wishes of the victim are irrelevant, right? You do not care at all for the victims of sexual assault.

That is sad.

Your words not mine. To the contrary, sweeping the problem under the rug, like the military, does not solve a thing.

Hey, then let's mandate that all victims of sexual assault file full reports, how about that!

No more anonymity, if you are assaulted you get no privacy. And let's put some real teeth in it, if you refuse to say who assaulted you, we put you in jail!

Thank you for the inquisition Snookie. You have just rolled the clock back 40 years on how we handle these things, and made these people victims all over again.