The End of the Culture War

[doeton]

The fact that there's no reference to our Christianity or our God in a TREATY WITH FUCKING TRIPOLI does not support your initial inanity,

oh it support my inanity.

 

[Truthmatters]

The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

 

[AllieBaba]

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the SUPREME JUDGE OF THE WORLD for the rectitude of our intentions....."

More of that non-religious stuff that our forefathers believed in.

 

[doeton]

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the SUPREME JUDGE OF THE WORLD for the rectitude of our intentions....."

the supreme judge of the world?

lol. so the founding fathers belonged to the church of the flying spaghetti monster.

i never knew. thanks allie.

 

[KittenKoder]

The culture wars (really, war again?) are what made this country and what keep it strong. Without differing views and ideas then we would just be another extremist country like so many others. It's not the differing or dividing ideas that weaken us, it's the inability for so many people to listen and work together with those who disagree that weakens us. Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative ... they're all just descriptions on your general leanings, they are not who or what you are, nor are they who or what this country is individually. It's the whole, the combination of them, that's what America has been and will be about. The best policies are those with a little from everything, the policies that work are those which enact ideals from all sides of the political disc (spectrum is that whole "black and white" idiocy). To follow one group or leader blindly without question and without consideration for the other groups is anti-American, it goes against all we stand for, but to ignore out differences is even more anti-American than that. Question all authority, but also tell it how you think it might be better and offer it solutions that may or may not work, but don't just repeat what it says, don't imitate it, and don't ignore the opposition just because they disagree. It's in the middle that works and has worked in the past, it's the extremism that has been hurting us recently, and the extremists are those who ignore our differences.

 

[doeton]

it's the inability for so many people to listen and work together with those who disagree that weakens us.

did you miss the part about it being A WAR?

 

[Ravi]

But, the very core of what our country was founded on comes fromt he belief that our RIGHTS are bestowed from a higher power, and not any individual, group, or governnment entity. If you start to say that individual rights stem from any form of human organization or thought, then you are taking out the very heart of what this country was founded on, and you're heading down a very dangerous road. This country was founded on the rights of the individual, period.

wrong.

this country was founded to escape religious persecution.



all that god crap came later...god in the oath, god in the pledge all later.

do some research.

No, you're wrong. Yes, the US was developed as a country where religious freedom was guaranteed, without a doubt, regardless of who you were...

And the people who want that the most are those who have been persecuted,and therefore are religious themselves.

THe founding fathers believed that rights were bestowed by God.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed BY THEIR CREATOR with certain inalienable Rights...."

Gosh, that reference to the "Creator" is right there in the Declaration of Independence.

You're right about the creator bit but wrong to assume they meant a particular God. Those tricky bastards, always playing around with language.

 

[KittenKoder]

it's the inability for so many people to listen and work together with those who disagree that weakens us.

did you miss the part about it being A WAR?

Look at the first part of my post again. Then look back at how I hate that every tiny thing is now called a 'war', all one person has to do is disagree with something and suddenly there is a 'war on this' or a 'war on that'. It's stupid, just plain stupid. A war is with guns and violence, a war is where the opposition is at least strong enough to fight against each other, and a war is where both sides want to conquer each other. Disagreements are NOT wars.

 

[DiamondDave]

Our Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

Please do not like that oft used opinion piece as any proof as to the religions held by the founding fathers....Did the founding fathers want to ensure that there was not a state religion or similar freedom of and from forced specific religion in government? Yes... but this oft used piece of shit page jumps around like a cat on a wet floor with a mild electric short on it

isn't the question were the founding father trying to build a CHRISTIAN nation?

and the answer is clearly no.

Not that I saw.... the discussion was on the inane concept of a collectivist society... when the founding of this country was based on individual freedoms and not some collectivist hive mentality...

And while a creator is mentioned many times in the forming documentation of this country, and while our base of law (as most of western civilization is) has some roots in the Judaic/Christian 'law' concepts... there was nothing stated to make this a 'Christian' government, even if the vast majority of persons in the country at the founding were indeed deemed as Christian... the founding fathers saw many things wrong in how England, and the Church of England, caused much persecution and infringement on individual freedoms.. which is why there were safeguards taken into account in the government formation...

This, however, does not preclude that some/most of the founding fathers were not Christian.. even if in many statements they have attributed to them speak against affiliation to specific churches, etc... much of the pretext was taken in terms (and very carefully) of the formation of government and how the leaders would be perceived if specific religious or church references would be openly remarked upon in the documents or in conversations and debates about the formation of government

 

[KittenKoder]

wrong.

this country was founded to escape religious persecution.



all that god crap came later...god in the oath, god in the pledge all later.

do some research.

No, you're wrong. Yes, the US was developed as a country where religious freedom was guaranteed, without a doubt, regardless of who you were...

And the people who want that the most are those who have been persecuted,and therefore are religious themselves.

THe founding fathers believed that rights were bestowed by God.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed BY THEIR CREATOR with certain inalienable Rights...."

Gosh, that reference to the "Creator" is right there in the Declaration of Independence.

You're right about the creator bit but wrong to assume they meant a particular God. Those tricky bastards, always playing around with language.

They took particular care in using non-affiliated language on purpose, to keep us from this whole mess in the first place. I only wish it had worked. Creator and judge means different beings to different people. For instance in my religion, Ptah was the creator and Anpu is the judge, while Ra is the provider, etc..

 

[Newby]

Where do you believe your rights extend from? The government?

they don't come from the christian god that's for sure.

Where do they come from then? You're trying to turn this into a religious discussion when what I said has nothing to do with religion, but has everything to do with limiting the power of the federal government. You just don't get it apparently. I don't care what religion you are or what your beliefs are, but as soon as you determine that man or an organization of man has power over your individual rights, you have given up all of your power to that organization. The point of the founding fathers stating that rights are endowed by man's creator was to protect those rights from being changed or taken away by man or any of his institutions, it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[doeton]

isn't part of it too that the prior to the u.s. kings claimed to derive their power directly from the almighty.

The founders simply took smaller step of saying the people rights come directly from the God.

Which going back to Newby's original statement I'll admit is on the face of it correct.

It's just that I don't think it was as much to we get our rights from God as some original idea, but rather simply to say we don't need a king

 

[doeton]

Where do they come from then?

seriously?

us?

it's pretty fricking obvious to me.

shit you think George washington could have just sat back and god would taken care of it.

the fxcking german? the japs?

shxt we the people.

that's were our rights come from.


hello.

 

[doeton]

"as soon as you determine that man or an organization of man has power over your individual rights, you have given up all of your power to that organization."

ah, have you tried speeding lately?

 

[Sky Dancer]

There will always be a small minority who dont want the country to come together.

Many of these people answering this thread daily told us to "stop whining" when we questioned the government of Bush.

They now question everything the president does. Fine with me. They will hate him no matter what he does. When his policies succeed they will hate him more. They also loved Bush the more he divided the country. They dont want a united states, they want a divided states.


Some people cant get along with anyone who doesnt agree with them wether they are wrong or right.
They want it THEIR way even when their way distroys anything of value.

Not all people are rational.

It's interesting how few people are actually interested in pulling together to tackle the big jobs--the economy--healthcare--the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan--international relations--immigration--terrorism--education.

They just want to bicker about abortion and gay rights and what if any holiday greetings to say.

 

[Newby]

Where do they come from then?

seriously?

us?

it's pretty fricking obvious to me.

shit you think George washington could have just sat back and god would taken care of it.

the fxcking german? the japs?

shxt we the people.

that's were our rights come from.


hello.

You simply are not comprehending what I am saying, so we'll just call it quits I think.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Andrew Sullivan wrote this more than a year ago in The Atlantic:

"At its best, the Obama candidacy is about ending a war — not so much the war in Iraq, which now has a momentum that will propel the occupation into the next decade — but the war within America that has prevailed since Vietnam and that shows dangerous signs of intensifying, a nonviolent civil war that has crippled America at the very time the world needs it most. It is a war about war — and about culture and about religion and about race. And in that war, Obama — and Obama alone — offers the possibility of a truce."http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama

 

[KittenKoder]

isn't part of it too that the prior to the u.s. kings claimed to derive their power directly from the almighty.

The founders simply took smaller step of saying the people rights come directly from the God.

Which going back to Newby's original statement I'll admit is on the face of it correct.

It's just that I don't think it was as much to we get our rights from God as some original idea, but rather simply to say we don't need a king

Pretty much, that's what they were likely trying ti affirm to the rest of the world, that we govern ourselves because it is our right to do so and that no one can grant to take that right. By using a deity basically says that unless you are one such being then there is no way you can take that right from us. Since no one really knows what deities exist and no one can agree on who actually knows what they say, there is no way anyone could change that right. Assurance based on a lack of belief really.

 

[Newby]

There will always be a small minority who dont want the country to come together.

Many of these people answering this thread daily told us to "stop whining" when we questioned the government of Bush.

They now question everything the president does. Fine with me. They will hate him no matter what he does. When his policies succeed they will hate him more. They also loved Bush the more he divided the country. They dont want a united states, they want a divided states.


Some people cant get along with anyone who doesnt agree with them wether they are wrong or right.
They want it THEIR way even when their way distroys anything of value.

Not all people are rational.

It's interesting how few people are actually interested in pulling together to tackle the big jobs--the economy--healthcare--the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan--international relations--immigration--terrorism--education.

They just want to bicker about abortion and gay rights and what if any holiday greetings to say.

Okay, why don't the two of us pull together to 'solve' the healthcare issue? We're on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum, so how do you propose we start? I am completely against any government intervention into health care whatsoever, so what is your solution?

 

[doeton]

You simply are not comprehending what I am saying, so we'll just call it quits I think.

ok, i think that's obama's plan too chief.