The Confederate Flag

[Boss]

The PC police seem to be gaining momentum with this issue of late. I see more and more commentary about it on the Internet and hear people commenting from time to time on television. So I decided maybe it's time to open a thread on the topic and deliver my personal views on the matter.

Let me begin by saying, I have done some pretty extensive research into my genealogy, as my family name is very rare and unusual. Before the Internet and boundless resources to discover this kind of information, we mostly relied on elder family members to tell us about our past. My grandmother used to say we were "Black Dutch" and for years, I had no idea what that meant or what it was. As it turns out, the term "Black Dutch" can mean almost anything. It is a 'catch-all' identifier that has been used by several mixed cultural groups through the years.

Interestingly enough, my ancestors were actually the original "Black Dutch" and they came from German peasantry living in the Black Forest from almost Biblical times. Seems some King, I think it was Otto II, wanted to exterminate all the poor people in society, as a means to raise the culture to a higher level. In order to escape persecution, many peasants in Germany fled into the Black Forest, and thus began the legacy of the Black Dutch. In the 17th and 18th centuries, it was also used by Jamaicans, Haitians, people of mixed Caribbean descent, and also by some Native Americans who married Europeans.

Much of my ancestry was hidden for many years out of fear of persecution. After years of research online through Ancestry.com and other sources, my sister and I have pieced together the colorful quilt of our personal lineage. I am largely Native American, with two great grandparents who were full blooded Cherokee and Choctaw. I have the German peasant Black Dutch, along with African, Creole and Asian ancestry as well. Now, the thread topic is not about my background, but I just wanted to stipulate this from the start, so as to avoid any misunderstanding as to my intentions or persuasions when it comes to the topic. For all intents and purposes, I am a Mutt. I'm probably less "white European" than anything, and what little bit I have in me is peasant class.

I've grown up in Alabama, the Heart of Dixie. All my life, I have seen the Confederate Flag. I have at least two ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War, fighting for the Confederacy. I've read countless books on the war, watched hours of documentaries, heard several lectures and I'm constantly digging for new information because it's a subject that has always interested me. I will say two things here, first... it is troubling to me how much 'disinformation' has been taught regarding the Civil War, and two... it is despicable how racist supremacist groups hijacked the battle flag of the Confederacy and made it into a symbol of hate. But even more disturbing to me is how uneducated people have bought into the image and view the flag as something offensive.

Regardless of whether some are offended by the flag, it is a part of American history and our past. I've never understood the mindset that seeks to ban the flag or remove it from view in public. Is this supposed to erase something or correct anything? Couldn't we just as easily make the same argument that we should pretend the Civil War never happened and we never had slavery in America? What about images of Dr. King, the police using firehoses in Birmingham, Bull Connor, George Wallace... why not erase them from memory as well?

There are many things in our past to be ashamed of. The fact that our founding fathers weren't compelled to end slavery at the onset of this nation and it's constitution is probably first and foremost to me, but also, the way Italian and Irish immigrants were treated, the way Asian immigrants were treated, the way many Latino immigrants are still being treated. To me, the battle flag of the Confederacy is kind of a trivial thing to get your panties in a wad about. Especially when it comes to the point about banning it and removing it from public view.

Why not instead, use it as a learning tool? Recognizing the significance in both the Southern and Northern viewpoints surrounding the Civil War and why it was fought? Acknowledging that we don't have a right to not be offended by something? Understanding that tolerance is accepting something that may bother you? Finally, realizing that hiding away our symbols of the past in a dark closet is never going to change our history.

 

[rightwinger]

There was nothing inherently offensive about the swastika either. It was used for centuries before being usurped by the Nazis
There is nothing inherently offensive about the name Adolph. But you don't see it used much anymore

The Confederate Battle flag was a symbol of the Southern Rebellion until it was usurped by the KKK as a symbol of black oppression. To many blacks that flag symbolizes the men who came in the night and burned and lynched. During the Civil Rights movement, that flag was waived as a reminder of the protesters slave roots

It may have been a perfectly acceptable symbol at one time....but it no longer is

 

[Howey]

The PC police seem to be gaining momentum with this issue of late. I see more and more commentary about it on the Internet and hear people commenting from time to time on television. So I decided maybe it's time to open a thread on the topic and deliver my personal views on the matter.

Let me begin by saying, I have done some pretty extensive research into my genealogy, as my family name is very rare and unusual. Before the Internet and boundless resources to discover this kind of information, we mostly relied on elder family members to tell us about our past. My grandmother used to say we were "Black Dutch" and for years, I had no idea what that meant or what it was. As it turns out, the term "Black Dutch" can mean almost anything. It is a 'catch-all' identifier that has been used by several mixed cultural groups through the years.

Interestingly enough, my ancestors were actually the original "Black Dutch" and they came from German peasantry living in the Black Forest from almost Biblical times. Seems some King, I think it was Otto II, wanted to exterminate all the poor people in society, as a means to raise the culture to a higher level. In order to escape persecution, many peasants in Germany fled into the Black Forest, and thus began the legacy of the Black Dutch. In the 17th and 18th centuries, it was also used by Jamaicans, Haitians, people of mixed Caribbean descent, and also by some Native Americans who married Europeans.

Much of my ancestry was hidden for many years out of fear of persecution. After years of research online through Ancestry.com and other sources, my sister and I have pieced together the colorful quilt of our personal lineage. I am largely Native American, with two great grandparents who were full blooded Cherokee and Choctaw. I have the German peasant Black Dutch, along with African, Creole and Asian ancestry as well. Now, the thread topic is not about my background, but I just wanted to stipulate this from the start, so as to avoid any misunderstanding as to my intentions or persuasions when it comes to the topic. For all intents and purposes, I am a Mutt. I'm probably less "white European" than anything, and what little bit I have in me is peasant class.

I've grown up in Alabama, the Heart of Dixie. All my life, I have seen the Confederate Flag. I have at least two ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War, fighting for the Confederacy. I've read countless books on the war, watched hours of documentaries, heard several lectures and I'm constantly digging for new information because it's a subject that has always interested me. I will say two things here, first... it is troubling to me how much 'disinformation' has been taught regarding the Civil War, and two... it is despicable how racist supremacist groups hijacked the battle flag of the Confederacy and made it into a symbol of hate. But even more disturbing to me is how uneducated people have bought into the image and view the flag as something offensive.

Regardless of whether some are offended by the flag, it is a part of American history and our past. I've never understood the mindset that seeks to ban the flag or remove it from view in public. Is this supposed to erase something or correct anything? Couldn't we just as easily make the same argument that we should pretend the Civil War never happened and we never had slavery in America? What about images of Dr. King, the police using firehoses in Birmingham, Bull Connor, George Wallace... why not erase them from memory as well?

There are many things in our past to be ashamed of. The fact that our founding fathers weren't compelled to end slavery at the onset of this nation and it's constitution is probably first and foremost to me, but also, the way Italian and Irish immigrants were treated, the way Asian immigrants were treated, the way many Latino immigrants are still being treated. To me, the battle flag of the Confederacy is kind of a trivial thing to get your panties in a wad about. Especially when it comes to the point about banning it and removing it from public view.

Why not instead, use it as a learning tool? Recognizing the significance in both the Southern and Northern viewpoints surrounding the Civil War and why it was fought? Acknowledging that we don't have a right to not be offended by something? Understanding that tolerance is accepting something that may bother you? Finally, realizing that hiding away our symbols of the past in a dark closet is never going to change our history.

My forebears were Dutch Jewish slave traders in Barbados.
Hope they didn't have contact with yours.

 

[sealybobo]

the term "Black Dutch" can mean almost anything. It is a 'catch-all' identifier that has been used by several mixed cultural groups through the years.

it is troubling to me how much 'disinformation' has been taught regarding the Civil War

There are many things in our past to be ashamed of. The fact that our founding fathers weren't compelled to end slavery at the onset of this nation and it's constitution is probably first and foremost to me, but also, the way Italian and Irish immigrants were treated, the way Asian immigrants were treated, the way many Latino immigrants are still being treated. To me, the battle flag of the Confederacy is kind of a trivial thing to get your panties in a wad about. Especially when it comes to the point about banning it and removing it from public view.

Why not instead, use it as a learning tool? Recognizing the significance in both the Southern and Northern viewpoints surrounding the Civil War and why it was fought? Acknowledging that we don't have a right to not be offended by something? Understanding that tolerance is accepting something that may bother you? Finally, realizing that hiding away our symbols of the past in a dark closet is never going to change our history.

Sort of like white trash.

What dis or misinformation?

I don't have a problem with the confederate flag. What is the state flag of Alabama? That is a symbol of bigoted racist hatred too. Did black people help design it? Then get rid of it and make a new one. If you want, go back to the confederate flag. Every southern state should have a state flag of the confederacy surrounded by the red white and blue because we own you after the civil war. Of course you guys have never gotten over the ass whipping you got.

Just like the Germans in WW2, you guys should have won, but you did not. Know why? God was on our side.

 

[Asclepias]

It has nothing to do with changing history. It has everything to do with not being constantly reminded. In the case of the traitor flag it is a reminder to Blacks of slavery and the south's wish to keep them enslaved. To others its is the symbol of a war that killed thousands of people. There is not much you can learn about history by flying that flag. its a symbol of hate. Its like wearing a t-shirt that applauds 9/11 as something good. Personally I think when people stop thinking they have the right to offend someone the world will be a much better place. There is nothing you gain by flying that flag that would make it a necessity.

 

[sealybobo]

I am a pure bred 100% Greek although it is possible my great great great great grandmothers were raped by Turks when they enslaved us for hundreds of years. I hear before that we were blonde haired and blue eyed. Sort of like when the Moors invaded Italy and turned their blonde hair black.

 

[Sunni Man]

I have a Confederate Flag bumper sticked on the back of my car.

To me it's a symbol of southern pride and represents the history of state's rights.

And has nothing to do with slavery. ...

 

[Friends]

Flying the Confederate flag in one of the eleven former Confederate states is an expression of local patriotism and respect for tradition. Flying the Confederate flag elsewhere in the United States is making a political statement that I disapprove of.

With the election of Barack Obama and the stagnant economy there is renewed support for secession. This disturbs me.

I only feel comfortable with the sight of the Confederate flag when it is displayed with the American flag in one of the former Confederate states. I see that as a symbol of national reconciliation.

 

[Boss]

There was nothing inherently offensive about the swastika either. It was used for centuries before being usurped by the Nazis
There is nothing inherently offensive about the name Adolph. But you don't see it used much anymore

The Confederate Battle flag was a symbol of the Southern Rebellion until it was usurped by the KKK as a symbol of black oppression. To many blacks that flag symbolizes the men who came in the night and burned and lynched. During the Civil Rights movement, that flag was waived as a reminder of the protesters slave roots

It may have been a perfectly acceptable symbol at one time....but it no longer is

And that would be a fair analogy had the Confederacy been about ethnic cleansing and white supremacy like Hitler and the Germans. Before it was a symbol of Southern rebellion or black oppression, it was the battle symbol of the Confederate Army. Under it, over 100,000 Southern Americans died fighting a war for their independence.

Instead of black people being offended by the flag, they should view it as an important and historic part of their past, where their ancestors ultimately won their emancipation. It is not often noted, but 65,000-100,000 southern blacks participated in the Confederate army as soldiers or other service personnel such as cooks, musicians, guards, and scouts. John Parker, a former slave reported that the "Richmond Howitzers were regiment partially manned by black people. They fought at the 1st Battle of Bull Run where they operated the second battery. A black regiment also fought for the confederates during this battle."

Frederick Douglass reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels." James Washington was a black confederate non-commissioned officer. He was the 4th Sergeant in a rec Co. D 35th in the Texas Cavalry in the Confederate Army. Freeman blacks were used in the Louisiana Native Guards, know in French as the Corps d’Afrique. On Nov. 23, 1861, the Louisiana Native guards fought along the Mississippi next to the white regiments. The Guards consisted of at least 33 black officers and 731 black enlisted men.

So while it was uncommon, less than 1.5% of the Confederate Army, there were some blacks who also fought and died under the Southern Cross. And while we are all familiar with the abhorrent racist symbolism the flag has been hijacked to represent, it has also been historically used as a symbol of pride... During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines).

 

[Mr. H.]

I'd rather see the Confederate flag properly displayed than see the American flag flown upside down in an expression of protest.

 

[rightwinger]

There was nothing inherently offensive about the swastika either. It was used for centuries before being usurped by the Nazis
There is nothing inherently offensive about the name Adolph. But you don't see it used much anymore

The Confederate Battle flag was a symbol of the Southern Rebellion until it was usurped by the KKK as a symbol of black oppression. To many blacks that flag symbolizes the men who came in the night and burned and lynched. During the Civil Rights movement, that flag was waived as a reminder of the protesters slave roots

It may have been a perfectly acceptable symbol at one time....but it no longer is

And that would be a fair analogy had the Confederacy been about ethnic cleansing and white supremacy like Hitler and the Germans. Before it was a symbol of Southern rebellion or black oppression, it was the battle symbol of the Confederate Army. Under it, over 100,000 Southern Americans died fighting a war for their independence.

Instead of black people being offended by the flag, they should view it as an important and historic part of their past, where their ancestors ultimately won their emancipation. It is not often noted, but 65,000-100,000 southern blacks participated in the Confederate army as soldiers or other service personnel such as cooks, musicians, guards, and scouts. John Parker, a former slave reported that the "Richmond Howitzers were regiment partially manned by black people. They fought at the 1st Battle of Bull Run where they operated the second battery. A black regiment also fought for the confederates during this battle."

Frederick Douglass reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels." James Washington was a black confederate non-commissioned officer. He was the 4th Sergeant in a rec Co. D 35th in the Texas Cavalry in the Confederate Army. Freeman blacks were used in the Louisiana Native Guards, know in French as the Corps d’Afrique. On Nov. 23, 1861, the Louisiana Native guards fought along the Mississippi next to the white regiments. The Guards consisted of at least 33 black officers and 731 black enlisted men.

So while it was uncommon, less than 1.5% of the Confederate Army, there were some blacks who also fought and died under the Southern Cross. And while we are all familiar with the abhorrent racist symbolism the flag has been hijacked to represent, it has also been historically used as a symbol of pride... During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines).

If the flag of rebellion were anything else but a flag to protect the rights of whites to enslave other human beings, you might have a point

The confederate flag was chosen by the KKK for a reason. It represented that time when blacks were owned and had no rights as humans.

 

[whitehall]

The inconvenient truth is that the Confederate flag only existed for four years as a battle flag. The flag that flew over the 200 years of the abominable system of slavery in the New World was the Union Jack and the American flag. The flag that flew off the stern of New England slave ships was the Mass state flag or the American flag or the Union Jack

 

[Boss]

If the flag of rebellion were anything else but a flag to protect the rights of whites to enslave other human beings, you might have a point

The confederate flag was chosen by the KKK for a reason. It represented that time when blacks were owned and had no rights as humans.

You are expressing a view that is totally ignorant of history. The Civil War was not about whites protecting their rights to enslave other human beings. The Supreme Court and law of the land in the United States was that you could own slaves, and it had been the law for 85 years before the war, since the very inception of the nation. The United States Congress and 15 previous US Presidents had every opportunity to end slavery and they didn't. The war was about Southern states protecting their rights as sovereign states. The North was not fighting to end slavery, by their own accounts, they fought to preserve the Union. It wasn't until late in the war, when public support was fading, Lincoln rallied behind the cause of abolition. Because of that, many ignorant people assume this was what the war was about.

 

[whitehall]

If it's about the flag, the 200 years of the "rights to enslave human beings" that flew over the New World was the Union Jack and the American flag. New Jersey outlawed slavery a scant 15 years before the Civil War.

 

[OnePercenter]

The confederate flag is the redneck Swastika.

O beautiful, for racist skies
For white supremacy
For Rush and Glenn
Our favorite guys
and NASCAR fantasy!
America! America!
The immigrant expel
Protect us good white Christian folk,
the rest condemn to hell.

 

[Moonglow]

Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Arabs, Africans and more were all involved in slavery......At the time as in the past slavery was a way of life for many nations and cultures....You can't try to pick and choose whom you want to be guilty since they were all guilty of slavery. It was not just blacks that were slaves, there were white, yellow, brown, red, you name it they all were slaves at one time, either by a foreign nation or the ones they lived in by feudal order..
You can't just pick and choose those you wish to condemn because that is not logical....

 

[whitehall]

The confederate flag is the redneck Swastika.

O beautiful, for racist skies
For white supremacy
For Rush and Glenn
Our favorite guys
and NASCAR fantasy!
America! America!
The immigrant expel
Protect us good white Christian folk,
the rest condemn to hell.

Silly hate filled bigots. Does anybody really want to live with pop-culture generated hatred?

 

[Mr. H.]

Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Arabs, Africans and more were all involved in slavery......At the time as in the past slavery was a way of life for many nations and cultures....You can't try to pick and choose whom you want to be guilty since they were all guilty of slavery. It was not just blacks that were slaves, there were white, yellow, brown, red, you name it they all were slaves at one time, either by a foreign nation or the ones they lived in by feudal order..
You can't just pick and choose those you wish to condemn because that is not logical....

America's first slave owner was a black man.

 

[Boss]

Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Arabs, Africans and more were all involved in slavery......At the time as in the past slavery was a way of life for many nations and cultures....You can't try to pick and choose whom you want to be guilty since they were all guilty of slavery. It was not just blacks that were slaves, there were white, yellow, brown, red, you name it they all were slaves at one time, either by a foreign nation or the ones they lived in by feudal order..
You can't just pick and choose those you wish to condemn because that is not logical....

To expound further, there were not many actual soldiers, infantrymen dying in battle, who owned slaves. Only 2% of the Southern population were landowners of large plantations where most of the slaves were, and none of those wealthy plantation owners fought in the general army. If there were any serving at all, it was as generals or officers. Most of their sons never served, back then they had an "in-proxy" policy by which a person could send someone to fight in their place. Many of the wealthy southerners did just that. So when we talk about the actual men who died fighting the Civil War for the South, very few if any were actual slave owners and most of them didn't even know anyone who owned slaves.

In the North, the State of New York actually contemplated seccession. They did not approve of sending their sons off to fight this war, particularly if it was over the issue of slavery. Many cities actually flew the Confederate Flag in defiant protest and boycott of the war.

Lincoln himself stated; "If I can preserve the Union by keeping slavery, I will do that. If I can preserve the Union by getting rid of slavery, I will do that." So we see by his very words, the issue of the war was not slavery but the preservation of the Union.

 

[OnePercenter]

The confederate flag is the redneck Swastika.

O beautiful, for racist skies
For white supremacy
For Rush and Glenn
Our favorite guys
and NASCAR fantasy!
America! America!
The immigrant expel
Protect us good white Christian folk,
the rest condemn to hell.

Silly hate filled bigots. Does anybody really want to live with pop-culture generated hatred?

So racism ISN'T wrong?