The collapse of Europe

Discussion in 'Economy' started by Neubarth, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Neubarth
    Offline

    Neubarth At the Ballpark July 30th

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    3,751
    Thanks Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South Pacific
    Ratings:
    +199
    The European economy is collapsing even faster than that of the United States. That is really bad, because the rate of collapse here is greater than that of the Great Depression.

    I have a close friend in Germany, Thomas Wilpert who is like a son to me. He tells me that most of the major European banks are insolvent, propped up only by Government stimulus packages. Sound familiar?

    Supposedly, most of the countries of the former Communist block went to the Western European banks to fund their development. That, of course, was where the money was.

    Along the way, all of the mortgages of the people buying homes for the first time as well as start up businesses were funded from the West. Now, as the currencies of those former Communist countries collapse, they can not pay the Euro Dollar or Swiss Frank denominated loans. Most people or businesses can not even afford to pay one fifth of the mortgage.

    The degree of the default is greater than our mortgage crisis. There is no way out of this crisis. Germany is considering withdrawing from the Euro confederation since they were the least involved in Eastern Europe lending. They will take a hit if they do withdraw from the Euro, but they will take a far bigger hit if they stay and try to prop it up.

    Europe is a goner economically. Only Germany might come out of this crisis within five years. The rest are ruined, but miraculously still standing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  2. elvis
    Offline

    elvis BANNED Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    25,882
    Thanks Received:
    4,303
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +4,303
    It sounds familiiar, but hopefully, the class divisions that were present in the 1930s Germany are gone now. The Nazis only garnered 37 percent of the vote in 1932, so anything can happen.
     
  3. PoliticalChic
    Online

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,918
    Thanks Received:
    15,698
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +25,052

    I am sooo glad whenever I see a post dealing with the world outside of the US. Most on this board, as Democrats, are only interested in domestic policy.

    I think that Germany will emerge as the leader in the EU, and even under Bush the US was betting on Germany. That is why the US under Clinton went with Germany against our two-war ally, Serbia. The US also went along with the Germany vs. Russia to open ports in Georgia.

    The economic crisis in EU will strengthen Germany's control of the EU, and the Obama administration will be happy to back Germany as it will allow us to complete operations in Afghanistan. A re-emerging Russia would have been a problem here.

    BTW, have you seen that in the last decade, more and more Germans have become dissatisfied with Democracy as their form of government?
     
  4. BrianH
    Offline

    BrianH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,520
    Thanks Received:
    238
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Texas
    Ratings:
    +238
     
  5. auditor0007
    Offline

    auditor0007 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    12,566
    Thanks Received:
    2,255
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Location:
    Toledo, OH
    Ratings:
    +3,218
    As much as many people in the US bitch about our two party system, I am thankful that we avoided the parliamentary system that most other democracies have chosen. While we fight between our two parties, it is easier to get things done.

    When you have three to sometimes ten or more parties in a parliamentary system, it is awfully hard to build a coalition government, and all it takes to destroy a coalition, once one exists, is for one or two of the smaller parties to change sides. And this can happen at any time. Those parties don't have to wait until election time.

    In order to build a coalition, many times favors must be done to get one of the smaller parties to become part of the coalition, so special interests play an even bigger role than in our government. Considering all these things, I can see how some people could get fed up with this type of system after a long period of time.
     
  6. Diuretic
    Offline

    Diuretic Permanently confused

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2006
    Messages:
    12,653
    Thanks Received:
    1,397
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South Australia est 1836
    Ratings:
    +1,397
    That's interesting. But what about the complaints that there's no difference between the two major parties? I read it a lot in the US context. It would be easier though if it were a one-party state wouldn't it?
     
  7. editec
    Offline

    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    41,427
    Thanks Received:
    5,598
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings:
    +5,618
    Western Civilization is basically losing its former dominance of the world.

    In 1500 the world was basically five great cultures: European (Christian), Chinese (Confusism) , Indian (Hindu) and Middle Eastern (Islamic) and Amerindian.

    From 1500 onward through 2000 European culture slowly dominated all others.

    It practically wiped out the AmerIndian cultures in the process of taking over the Western Hemipshere

    By 1900 most of the world was under direct control of the European colonial powers.

    Their combined mercantile powers also held sway over the emerging one world (as opposed to the five somewhat isolated worlds of 1500) economy.

    Then Europe's major monachical (and colonial) powers, Germany, Russia, England France and Austra-Hapsburg began that internacine battle for dominance of world power, which we call World Wars I and II.

    By the end of those wars the battle for final domination of the European powers continued through the cold war, but the colonial system power of the Europeans held over most of the world -- a power that was once unassailable -- was essentially shattered.

    After the end of the cold war, Western Anglo European power, dominated the world through mercantilism.

    And so, since 1945 we have witnessed the resurgence of three of the original five great human cultures: the Islamic culture, the Chinese culture, and the Central Asian Hindu/Indian culture.

    And now, that Western system of world domaination by international economic mercantilism is on the wane.

    First we gave up our industrial domination, thinking that we could control the world through banking domination

    But as we can see even that is floundering right now. We presume it is doing so for purely technical reasons, but I have my doubts.

    The genie is out of the bottle. We are no longer the rich guys who control the world through manipulation of currency, either.

    Neither China, nor India are ever, I think, likely to return to those vassels states of European mercantilism that they were in our lifetimes.

    Further, due to the decline in population of the Europeans, a combination of both a slower birth rate and the slaughter of tens of millions of the best and brightest of the Europeans in two successsive generation during the twentith century, the other cultures are winning the war of demographics, too.

    In this sense, my friends, William Joyce's oft times expressed concern that the WHITE WORLD is losing it are essantially correct.

    World Power appears to be shifting to the East.

    We are, I think but on the cusp of the decline, right now, but that decline appears as if it will be swift and dramatic.

    What emerges, either a one world state or some domination of one of the other great cutlures, remains to be seen.
     
  8. PoliticalChic
    Online

    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    55,918
    Thanks Received:
    15,698
    Trophy Points:
    2,190
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Ratings:
    +25,052

    Nice work.

    I think that the end or the "white" world is, as Mark Twain so famously said:“Reports of my Death Are Greatly Exaggerated.”

    I agree re: dramatic shift in power in this world, and it is happening as we speak. EU in the form of Germany will be the power. The US has tacitly agreed to this, as we see as far back as the attacks on Serbia, which Germany wanted.

    Russia and Germany have a (silent) pact, which became visible after Russia shut off the gas/oil to EU. From Stratfor:
    “First, as we noted while following the negotiations, this energy crisis was never about the big public summits involving the Russian and Ukrainian leaders and the EU, but the behind-the-scenes deals being struck by the real power brokers: Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and German Chancellor Angela Merkel” (January 19).

    I think there will be an axis of Germnay-Russia, with US signing on. (Did you notice how quickly President Obama returned the Churchill bust to UK? He has shifted allegiance from UK to Germany).

    I doubt that either China or Iran-led Middle East will be as powerful.

    But if Stratfor is correct that the US will be able to co-opt energy from the sun via satellites that will beam it back by microwaves, in about 50 years, that would be a game changer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2009
  9. Neubarth
    Offline

    Neubarth At the Ballpark July 30th

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    3,751
    Thanks Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    South Pacific
    Ratings:
    +199
    Though I read your post with interest, the fact is that you have hijacked the original thought of the post.

    I will honor your hijack and comment that things are not quite as bad as you think.

    Economically, the Western Cultured Countries going to collapse and things might be tough for a dozen years, but they will revive. China is good at copying us but will not lead us out of the Depression. Our cost and effect structure is going to drastically change and we will be competitive with China, because we have the resources.

    I will start my economic discussion on the European collapse on another thread, as this one should continue in the present direction. It is a good talk.
     
  10. auditor0007
    Offline

    auditor0007 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    12,566
    Thanks Received:
    2,255
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Location:
    Toledo, OH
    Ratings:
    +3,218
    There are differences between the two parties. Each party also has it's fringe elements. Depending on the thinking of the country in general, even the parties move in one direction or another within each party. In the long run, it is true that both parties tend to lean more toward the center.

    It's not about being easier; it's about having workable choices. A one party state is not a democracy. But yes, a one party state does have it easier accomplishing it's goals. The problem is that all too often those goals become something other than what freedom loving people would want.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1

Share This Page