The British Empire Shame Thread

[ChrisL]

Deny the British empire's crimes? No, we ignore them | George Monbiot

Spreading the love in Kenya.

Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were anally raped, using knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels, snakes and scorpions. A favourite technique was to hold a man upside down, his head in a bucket of water, while sand was rammed into his rectum with a stick. Women were gang-raped by the guards. People were mauled by dogs and electrocuted. The British devised a special tool which they used for first crushing and then ripping off testicles. They used pliers to mutilate women's breasts. They cut off inmates' ears and fingers and gouged out their eyes. They dragged people behind Land Rovers until their bodies disintegrated. Men were rolled up in barbed wire and kicked around the compound.

Even Guantanamo isnt quite that bad.

What's your point dude? If it is in the past then how this generation could possibly be responsible for it?

There are several points but I suppose the main one is that people are very quick to condemn one group in society for the actions of a few whilst ignoring the actions of others. Are the awful actions of ISIS any worse than those of the British, or American governments ?
I hate hypocrisy although I accept that much of it is based on ignorance.

Yes!

 

[boedicca]

Google is a 21st Century Empire which is should feel Shame, but is incapable of such honest introspection.


7264 by boedicca on US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Challenger]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

I think the point is "the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". The 18th and 19th centuries were ages of European empires and the technical dominance of Europe as a whole. Colonies provided raw materials and ready markets for what Europe produced. Were natives exploited? Yes, undoubtedly but they were also given access to western education, medicine and science. There was also outward investment in the colonies including infrastructure projects that benefited both colonisers and colonised. Benefits may have been "incidental" but that made them no less real or ultimately valuable to the colonies themselves.

I agree however with your comments regarding the "shit sandwich" that was left when the colonial empires were dismantled after WW2, but here our American cousins must bear their share of responsibility as they have taken over the role of "world policeman" only to find it's not that easy a role to fulfill.

 

[Drummond]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

I am not supportive of any terrorist group. Why do you twist my words in this way ?

 

[Mindful]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

I am not supportive of any terrorist group. Why do you twist my words in this way ?

He said *Muslim* terrorist group.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

I am not supportive of any terrorist group. Why do you twist my words in this way ?

He said *Muslim* terrorist group.

That would probably come under the catch all of "any terrorist group".

 

[Mindful]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

I am not supportive of any terrorist group. Why do you twist my words in this way ?

He said *Muslim* terrorist group.

That would probably come under the catch all of "any terrorist group".

Why didn't you say it?

 

[idb]

Interesting thread but I'm struggling to find the point of it.
Are you suggesting that committing atrocities in the name of creating an empire is historically justified?

 

[ChrisL]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

I think the point is "the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". The 18th and 19th centuries were ages of European empires and the technical dominance of Europe as a whole. Colonies provided raw materials and ready markets for what Europe produced. Were natives exploited? Yes, undoubtedly but they were also given access to western education, medicine and science. There was also outward investment in the colonies including infrastructure projects that benefited both colonisers and colonised. Benefits may have been "incidental" but that made them no less real or ultimately valuable to the colonies themselves.

I agree however with your comments regarding the "shit sandwich" that was left when the colonial empires were dismantled after WW2, but here our American cousins must bear their share of responsibility as they have taken over the role of "world policeman" only to find it's not that easy a role to fulfill.

A lot of us do NOT want America to take such a role. I would rather let the Europeans deal with it.

 

[Steven_R]

The Europeans no longer have the capability, let along the will. WW1 just destroyed Europe and WW2 just finished off the job.

I actually just finished The First World War by John Keegan. It was excellent. If you have the time, check out this Youtube channel The Great War and Dan Carlin's podcast Blueprint for Armeggedon Hardcore History 50 – Blueprint for Armageddon I

 

[Drummond]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

Not only isn't it a 'competition', it can't meaningfully be one, either.

ISIS has, according to you, a long way to go to match the curse of the Empire ??? I see. You're seriously telling me that ISIS, when they behead captives, when they destroy cultural heritages, when they enslave womenfolk, when they commit their terrorist acts and take over territory by force, give the populations they meet a BETTER time of it than our old Empire did ?

They introduce a kinder, more law-abiding regime, than the Empire ever did ?

Tommy - you'll doubtless leap on this post and make all sorts of accusations which insult our long-dead past, and favour ISIS !! But the fact of the matter is that, comparatively speaking, YOU ARE FAVORING ISIS !

In passing -- would you care to provide a list of any other Muslim terrorist groups you'd like to be supportive of ?

I am not supportive of any terrorist group. Why do you twist my words in this way ?

Islamic terrorists are the lowest of the low, Tommy. So low are they, that I struggle to even see them as 'human' at all (I usually fail, in fact). In the face of this reality, you have the gall to so much as hint that ISIS is better than the British Empire was.

What else can that add up to, than an attempt to sanitise peoples' perception of ISIS ? And why else would you do that, unless you want to suggest that ISIS is more deserving of being seen favourably, than our old - AND LONG DEAD !!! - British Empire !

The very fact of resurrecting something long dead and buried, so you are then able to introduce any laughable case for saying that the most vicious Islamic terrorists around today are perceivable as 'better' (!!!) ... cannot be anything but a considerable stretch made to view them with unsupportable favour.

I suggest this: your hatreds, your prejudices, have led you to this. To exercise them is an exercise in extremist thought, as well as total illogic. The British Empire is dead.So is the dodo - dead. So are dinosaurs - dead. Why not make a case for saying that ISIS behave better than a Tyrannosaurus Rex usually did, if he was having an 'off' day .. ?

Start a thread on it ... 'ISIS v Jurassic Era: a critique'. See for yourself how much sense that would make to anyone.

 

[Mindful]

God save the Queen and the flat hats!

 

[yiostheoy]

As a US citizen I am pleased and proud that we were a British colony. They certainly had the recipe for success. The alternative was to be a Spanish or Dutch colony and we have seen how that has turned out in Central America.

To shame the British empire is ridiculous. Without them our world would look much darker and worse off.

Correct. The Brit's at least treated their overseas subjects no worse than their homeland subjects in London or Dublin.

The Americans actually had it quite good.

I'm still surprised they rebelled at all.

It was expensive for the King to defend his worldwide colonies against the French and Indians.

Perhaps he just hit the colonists too hard all at once with his taxation ?!

The USA would have gotten their freedom eventually. Heck even Canada got theirs and they were loyalists to the very end.

 

[yiostheoy]

God save the Queen and the flat hats!

Since her son the Crown Prince is such a fokking philanderer, I hope that God saves her until Charles is too feeble to ascend the thrown over there.

 

[frigidweirdo]

On Australia Day, Google is giving the country a reminder of its dark history

The actions of the British Empire brought shame on Britain.

I am sure that you can find other examples.

The same with any superpower, they get there by trampling on others.

The US, the USSR, England, Spain, France, Portugal, the Dutch, the Germans, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese, and all the others.

 

[yiostheoy]

Any benefits of the empire were incidental. Countries exploited for their assets,people slaughtered, and so on.

The real damage of the empire is in the shit sandwich it has left the world to deal with today. Not least the risible pride that the english blimps take in it.

It is where the racist attitudes of today come from.

Isis has a long way to go to match the curse of the empire, but its not a competition is it ?

The benefits of colonization were massive for the English.

It gave them a place to escape to from England where they could start over, clear land, build homes, plant farms, raise livestock, eat, drink, and be Merry Olde Englishmen.

Of course the Native Americans were pissed about losing their land. And that created the need for militias.

And being in communications with each other, the settlers needed a Congress of some kind to govern themselves.

This all led to an American tax revolt in 1775 and their Declaration Of Independence in 1776 with its Locke-esque "natural philosophy" built into it.

The rest is history.

Since then almost all monarchies have been discarded and representative government with all its drawbacks and weaknesses is the norm everywhere.

Think again. The impact was astronomical.

 

[Mindful]

As a US citizen I am pleased and proud that we were a British colony. They certainly had the recipe for success. The alternative was to be a Spanish or Dutch colony and we have seen how that has turned out in Central America.

To shame the British empire is ridiculous. Without them our world would look much darker and worse off.

Correct. The Brit's at least treated their overseas subjects no worse than their homeland subjects in London or Dublin.

The Americans actually had it quite good.

I'm still surprised they rebelled at all.

It was expensive for the King to defend his worldwide colonies against the French and Indians.

Perhaps he just hit the colonists too hard all at once with his taxation ?!

The USA would have gotten their freedom eventually. Heck even Canada got theirs and they were loyalists to the very end.

Just because you wouldn't foot the bill for the French/Indian War.

What do you mean, Freedom? You weren't Americans then. And becoming them was a long process.

 

[yiostheoy]

On Australia Day, Google is giving the country a reminder of its dark history

The actions of the British Empire brought shame on Britain.

I am sure that you can find other examples.

The same with any superpower, they get there by trampling on others.

The US, the USSR, England, Spain, France, Portugal, the Dutch, the Germans, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese, and all the others.

I have a better list that goes back all the way to the beginning of history:

Akkadians
Assyrians
Babylonians
Egyptians
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Byzantines
Arabs
Venetians
Portuguese
Spanish
English
French
Germans
Russians
Japanese
Americans
Chinese
North Koreans
Israelis
Palestinians
Arabs again

Conspicuously absent from this list is India. India has never hurt anybody else.

 

[Mindful]

On Australia Day, Google is giving the country a reminder of its dark history

The actions of the British Empire brought shame on Britain.

I am sure that you can find other examples.

The same with any superpower, they get there by trampling on others.

The US, the USSR, England, Spain, France, Portugal, the Dutch, the Germans, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese, and all the others.

I have a better list that goes back all the way to the beginning of history:

Akkadians
Assyrians
Babylonians
Egyptians
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Byzantines
Arabs
Venetians
Portuguese
Spanish
English
French
Germans
Russians
Japanese
Americans
Chinese
North Koreans
Israelis
Palestinians
Arabs again

Conspicuously absent from this list is India. India has never hurt anybody else.

They beat us at cricket.