The 2017 tax reform from an economic point of view

[Foxfyre]

I wish I could have been blessed with an economics class or two taught by Walter E. Williams PhD, long time tenured profession of economics at George Mason University, best selling author, syndicated columnist, and occasional guest talk show host or television commentator.

Dr, Williams, whether on paper, on the radio/TV and I imagine in the classroom, doesn't teach via mind numbing charts, graphs, pointy headed academic language, or high sounding terms used by people who want others to admire them for their superior intellect. He uses familiar imagery, illustrations, logic, reason to drill home important lessons that actually teach economics as a practical subject instead of an academic exercise.

Today I ran across one of my favorite columns of his that has most often been entitled "An Economic Miracle."

He used an amazing illustration of an Adam Smith principle by explaining how no person, group of people, or government would have the insight, knowledge, or ability to stock the average American super market with 10,000+ different items at a price people can afford to buy. It is rather millions of people looking to their own interests that create that miracle. No government would likely have the resources to put a single product on the shelf at the grocery store.

He closed the column with this provocative observation:

If you have doubts about Adam Smith's prediction, ask yourself which areas of our lives are we the most satisfied and those with most complaints. Would they be profit motivated arenas such supermarkets, video or clothing stores, or be nonprofit motivated government-operated arenas such as public schools, postal delivery or motor vehicle registration? By the way, how many of you would be in favor of Congress running our supermarkets?​

Economic Miracle, by Walter E.Williams

The lesson would be very good for the American people to consider when evaluating the merits of the tax reform just passed by Congress and signed into law by the President. There is much criticism of the lion's share of tax relief going to business and industry or as some characterize it: 'the wealthy.' But is that something to criticize? Or commend?

As Dr. Williams would probably say (and may already have), overall, what benefits the people the most? Encouraging a profit motive in commerce and industry? Or the government directing money/resources/opportunity to those demographics that the government decides should have it?

The poll is multiple choice and you can change your answer should you rethink your initial choices

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

 

[bendog]

I totally agree that the gop should have ended corporate tax expenditures in exchange for corp tax cuts, but Wall St didn't want that

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I totally agree that the gop should have ended corporate tax expenditures in exchange for corp tax cuts, but Wall St didn't want that

I totally agree that the gop should have ended corporate tax expenditures

Sounds like a good idea. Any specifics?

 

[Foxfyre]

I totally agree that the gop should have ended corporate tax expenditures in exchange for corp tax cuts, but Wall St didn't want that

What are you thinking of when you say 'corporate tax expenditures'? How would ending corporate tax expenditures have been beneficial to the American people as a whole?

Same question to Toddsterpatriot

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't? And will the direction you think it will go be beneficial to the American people as a whole or not?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours.

I trust China's economic data slightly less than I trusted Obama.

The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt.

The USA holds Chinese bonds? Link?

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

Nope.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours.

I trust China's economic data slightly less than I trusted Obama.

The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt.

The USA holds Chinese bonds? Link?

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

Nope.

Here's part of the back story of what China owes the USA and why:
It's Time for China to Pay Its Debts to the United States

https://www.quora.com/What-countries-owe-the-U-S-money

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours.

I trust China's economic data slightly less than I trusted Obama.

The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt.

The USA holds Chinese bonds? Link?

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

Nope.

Here's part of the back story of what China owes the USA and why:
It's Time for China to Pay Its Debts to the United States

https://www.quora.com/What-countries-owe-the-U-S-money

Sounds like baloney.

 

[Brain357]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

China has a huge pollution mess to clean up.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

China has a huge pollution mess to clean up.

So have we had huge pollution messes to clean up, but prosperity tends to give people the time, wherewithall, and will to clean up their environment where those who are struggling just to make ends meet or even survive mostly put the environment way down on their list of concerns. All the more reason to encourage prosperity.

Which is, in a way, what this thread could be about. But the question is, what economic initiatives or principles in our society encourages the most benefit to the people overall?

 

[task0778]

Hey Foxy! Check this out:

The Free Market Beats Government Planning Every Time

Excerpt:

The average well-stocked supermarket carries 60,000 to 65,000 different items. Walmart carries about 120,000 different items.

Let’s suppose Congress puts you in total control of getting just one item to a supermarket—say apples. Let’s not make it easy by having the help of apple wholesalers. Thus, you would have to figure out all of the inputs necessary to get apples to your local supermarket.

Let’s look at just a few. You need crates to ship the apples. Count all the inputs necessary to produce crates. There’s wood, but you need saws to cut down trees. The saws are made of steel, so iron ore must be mined, and mining equipment is needed. The workers must have shoes.

The complete list of inputs to get apples to the market comes to a very large, possibly an unknowable, number. Forgetting any one of them, such as spark plugs, would probably mean no apples at your supermarket.

The beauty of market allocation of goods and services, compared with government fiat, is no one person needs to know all that’s necessary to get apples to your supermarket. Free markets, accompanied by free trade, including international free trade, make us richer by economizing on the amount of knowledge or information needed to produce things.

AND, this is without the politics getting involved with the corruption that goes with that.

 

[Brain357]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018

Only by people who can't add.

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

China has a huge pollution mess to clean up.

So have we had huge pollution messes to clean up, but prosperity tends to give people the time, wherewithall, and will to clean up their environment where those who are struggling just to make ends meet or even survive mostly put the environment way down on their list of concerns. All the more reason to encourage prosperity.

Which is, in a way, what this thread could be about. But the question is, what economic initiatives or principles in our society encourages the most benefit to the people overall?

We have never been as polluted as China. They can't see the sky.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hey Foxy! Check this out:

The Free Market Beats Government Planning Every Time

Excerpt:

The average well-stocked supermarket carries 60,000 to 65,000 different items. Walmart carries about 120,000 different items.

Let’s suppose Congress puts you in total control of getting just one item to a supermarket—say apples. Let’s not make it easy by having the help of apple wholesalers. Thus, you would have to figure out all of the inputs necessary to get apples to your local supermarket.

Let’s look at just a few. You need crates to ship the apples. Count all the inputs necessary to produce crates. There’s wood, but you need saws to cut down trees. The saws are made of steel, so iron ore must be mined, and mining equipment is needed. The workers must have shoes.

The complete list of inputs to get apples to the market comes to a very large, possibly an unknowable, number. Forgetting any one of them, such as spark plugs, would probably mean no apples at your supermarket.

The beauty of market allocation of goods and services, compared with government fiat, is no one person needs to know all that’s necessary to get apples to your supermarket. Free markets, accompanied by free trade, including international free trade, make us richer by economizing on the amount of knowledge or information needed to produce things.

AND, this is without the politics getting involved with the corruption that goes with that.

Yes, Dr. Williams is making pretty much the same argument here, but using apples as his illustration rather than tuna that he used in the initial essay that I linked in the OP.

The point of course is that an unknowable number of people--possibly millions--contributed to putting a can of tuna on our local supermarket shelf. Many of them were mostly likely people who know nothing about us or, if they do, they don't like us very much or care about us at all and/or actually wish us nothing good whatsoever. Nevertheless, just in the process of living their lives and looking to their own interests and well being, they contribute something that made that can of tuna possible even if it was nothing more than cutting the hemp that would eventually become part of a rope used on a fishing boat.

Take the profit or selfish motive completely out of the picture, and also eliminate an economic climate in which it can prosper, there would be far less to contribute to quality of life possible out there.

 

[gipper]

So do you think it will happen? Or won't?

Eventually, if their house of cards doesn't collapse, their 1.38 billion people will produce more than our 327 million people. But not next year.

The 'house of cards' metaphor is one I can relate to in a discussion like this. But I also look at China's roughly 4 trillion dollar national debt in an economy very close to the size of ours. The USA holds a little over $1 trillion or so of that debt. The USA national debt is over $20 trillion and counting with China holding roughly $1 trillion or so of our debt. So the amount we owe each other is roughly the same, but the USA national debt is four times that of China's.

So when it comes to houses of cards, ours looks a little shakier maybe?

China has a huge pollution mess to clean up.

So have we had huge pollution messes to clean up, but prosperity tends to give people the time, wherewithall, and will to clean up their environment where those who are struggling just to make ends meet or even survive mostly put the environment way down on their list of concerns. All the more reason to encourage prosperity.

Which is, in a way, what this thread could be about. But the question is, what economic initiatives or principles in our society encourages the most benefit to the people overall?

We have never been as polluted as China. They can't see the sky.

Detroit in the 1960s was very close, if not worse

 

[Foxfyre]

Hey Foxy! Check this out:

The Free Market Beats Government Planning Every Time

Excerpt:

The average well-stocked supermarket carries 60,000 to 65,000 different items. Walmart carries about 120,000 different items.

Let’s suppose Congress puts you in total control of getting just one item to a supermarket—say apples. Let’s not make it easy by having the help of apple wholesalers. Thus, you would have to figure out all of the inputs necessary to get apples to your local supermarket.

Let’s look at just a few. You need crates to ship the apples. Count all the inputs necessary to produce crates. There’s wood, but you need saws to cut down trees. The saws are made of steel, so iron ore must be mined, and mining equipment is needed. The workers must have shoes.

The complete list of inputs to get apples to the market comes to a very large, possibly an unknowable, number. Forgetting any one of them, such as spark plugs, would probably mean no apples at your supermarket.

The beauty of market allocation of goods and services, compared with government fiat, is no one person needs to know all that’s necessary to get apples to your supermarket. Free markets, accompanied by free trade, including international free trade, make us richer by economizing on the amount of knowledge or information needed to produce things.

AND, this is without the politics getting involved with the corruption that goes with that.

I also note that the article I linked was back in 2009, the first year of the Obama administration. This one you linked is 2017, the first year of the Trump administration.

I suspect we have a President now who better understands the concept that Dr. Williams is teaching than did President Obama and the people surrounding him.

 

[Slade3200]

Thanks you for the post. You appear to have put a lot of thought into it and have posed some great topics for discussion.

I think our tax system needed reform so I’d say this bill is a net positive but I am very disappointed as I think it fell short in many areas. I wish it would have concentrated the majority of its energy into the middle class and small businesses. The extreme wealthy and corporations should get deductions for investments that help our economy, but for profits that they stuff in their bank accounts I’m more than fine taxing. Things are trending towards the top dogs owning everything in the future and then our “free market capitalistic society” turns into corporate/buerocratic socialism as they will run the show. Us citizens will then be mostly comprised of renters and employees. It is a very dangerous trend and this bill didn’t do much to help that problem, it may have even enabled it.