That freak in Florida doesn't speak for me

[xotoxi]

I think someone should show up at the Koran burning, and chuck a Bible on the fire.

While there at it, chuck a copy of Catcher in the Rye.

I'm ashamed to confess that I would find it really, really, really funny if someone burned his fucking church down - before 9/11. My bad. As long as no one was hurt.

Since it is not really a church in the eyes of Christ, and no one lives there, and I'm sure it is insured, then it's not a bad wish.

 

[xotoxi]

I'd like him to eat some tainted eggs on 9/10 and have massive diarrhea on 9/11.

 

[goldcatt]

That's right, because if you can't legally take away his free speech, just get him in any other way you can. Unbelieveable. This isn't about religion at all, it doesn't matter that he's a pastor or minister or whatever he is, he's a US citizen and has rights.

If he violates a pre-existing law in the course of exercising speech, being punished for breaking that law is not taking away his free speech. He can speak any way he pleases so long as in doing so he doesn't break other laws. It doesn't matter whether it's a local burn ordinance or laws against rape, kidnapping and murder, the same principle applies.

You don't get the simple point here, you are all against his right to free speech. You want to take that right away from because you don't agree with it, very dangerous. What's next?

Bullshit. Read my previous posts on this thread again and then tell me I'm advocating abridging anybody's right to free speech. What you don't understand is the nature of the First Amendment, but typing it all out for somebody who can't or won't read it is a waste of time.

 

[xotoxi]

I think someone should show up at the Koran burning, and chuck a Bible on the fire.

While there at it, chuck a copy of Catcher in the Rye.

I'm ashamed to confess that I would find it really, really, really funny if someone burned his fucking church down - before 9/11. My bad. As long as no one was hurt.

It would be very fitting if the church got struck by lightning.

Or better yet...a beautiful day on 9/11. They light the fire. It's massive. Then a freak wind comes up and blows the fire to the church and burns it to the ground.

God has spoken.

 

[Newby]

who says they want to take away his free speech?

you keep repeating the same silliness.

What exactly are you arguing then?

She's simply exercising her right to speak out against his reckless foolishness.

She's gone further than that, but you're welcome to your opinion as well.

 

[xotoxi]

What exactly are you arguing then?

She's simply exercising her right to speak out against his reckless foolishness.

She's gone further than that, but you're welcome to your opinion as well.

Where did she go further than that?

 

[Newby]

Has anyone here actually advocated that the right be taken away from him?

Or are people advocating that he choose not to do it?

Seems like the first option to me. Using intimidation or whatever other means necessary to make it painful for him to exercise his rights? I don't see that as any different than advocating that they just simply be taken from him.

So instead you advocate silencing his opposition?

...just to make it less painful for him to exercise his right?

Where did I say that? I'm not the one advocating anything here. I'm defending his right to free speech, whether I agree with it or not.

 

[Sarah G]

I'm not so sure he has a right to incite violence in this way especially when it's aimed at another country and we happen to be at war in the vicinity.

This man is a nutcase, he has a very tiny group supporting his extremist pov and he is all over the news right now, why allow him to take his hatred just another step further?

We have a KKK march in my hometown from time to time and it takes extra police, people to control their urge to slug these baiters and for everyone else to swallow it and call it peaceful protest and KKK rights just because they aren't hanging someone from the highest tree.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Would you all allow the bible to be burned in protest without a fight?

 

[jillian]

What exactly are you arguing then?

She's simply exercising her right to speak out against his reckless foolishness.

She's gone further than that, but you're welcome to your opinion as well.

no i haven't. i have every right to avail myself of every legal means to state my objection to the pathetic loons who believe in burning books

 

[Sky Dancer]

Seems like the first option to me. Using intimidation or whatever other means necessary to make it painful for him to exercise his rights? I don't see that as any different than advocating that they just simply be taken from him.

really? intimidation like this?

When the Guardian reported the Dixie Chicks' attack on George Bush at a London gig in March, all hell broke loose in their homeland. They were branded 'Saddam's Angels' and their records were burned.

Free the Dixie Three | Music | The Guardian

i have every right to stand up and say that someone is a pathetic piece of garbage who SHOULDN'T do something.... which has NOTHING to do with their right TO do it.

Yes they did have that right, I'm not sure what your point is? I didn't advocate that they be strung up and told to shut up or they were going to face consequences as you are doing here.

Defending the Qu'ran burners? Wow. American Muslims have had a peaceful response to this by inviting the public to an open meeting to learn about the Qu'ran on the proposed day of the book burning.

 

[Newby]

She's simply exercising her right to speak out against his reckless foolishness.

She's gone further than that, but you're welcome to your opinion as well.

Where did she go further than that?

yes, he is making a political statement. if i recall correctly, i believe that should result in him losing his sweet little tax exemption on the property the church sits on.

that, combined with the mortgage being pulled...

and the fire insurance being canceled...

and the fire marshalls going to arrest them the minute they set fire to something that isn't twigs and branches....

and still the loon is going to do this.

you'd think if he was really listening for a sign from G-d... he'd be looking at the above.

*shrug*

Sounds like she wants more than to just voice her opposition.

 

[Newby]

really? intimidation like this?



Free the Dixie Three | Music | The Guardian

i have every right to stand up and say that someone is a pathetic piece of garbage who SHOULDN'T do something.... which has NOTHING to do with their right TO do it.

Yes they did have that right, I'm not sure what your point is? I didn't advocate that they be strung up and told to shut up or they were going to face consequences as you are doing here.

Defending the Qu'ran burners? Wow. American Muslims have had a peaceful response to this by inviting the public to an open meeting to learn about the Qu'ran on the proposed day of the book burning.

I'm defending his right to free speech, Sky, not the act itself. I'm surprised that would have to be explained to you.

 

[strollingbones]

i defend his right to speak freely and the right of others to react....

 

[Newby]

I'd bet a million dollars that if this were a Muslim wanting to burn a Bible, all the people in here arguing against this man would be taking my position that we can't violate rights and that a muslim would have every right to burn a bible. If this guy weren't a self professed 'christian', there would barely be a wimper from those outraged over it.

 

[rhet 2]

Or 99.999% of Christians.

He is someone that has distorted views of what it is to be a Christian, and doesn't hold OUR viewpoints. He is the same as Fred Phelps, with an agenda of hate to spread.


And if ANY soldiers or innocent people are killed because of what he wants to do, the blood is on HIS HANDS, and anyone else that participates in this sideshow of burning the Koran.


This is my opinion. -EZ

There's no such thing as an innocent American, you all have iraqi and palestinian blood on your hands.

And they have American blood on their's.

Many billions of dead, murdered people to account for through centuries of endless wars of conquest -- of intolerance -- of scorn for the Law of Moses: "thou shalt NOT murder" for ANY reason -- including lust for political power and stolen gold. Includes a wife gutted because she looked at what her husband was REALLY doing in his garden -- and includes a poetess named Marwan.

"Thou shalt NOT steal" includes the gold earned by others being shipped to other places near Mecca. AND it includes land owned by Jews, greenhouses built by Jews, farms planted and watered by the sweat of Jews.

"Thou shalt NOT bear false witness" includes LYING about the helpless little girl you just raped so that SHE gets murdered as a whore --- when the only whoring was the male controlled by his own pecker so that his honor and his integrity drown in the seas of his own semen spewed wherever he can find a victim to stomp shit out of.

"Thou shalt NOT lust after another man's wife" includes the wife of your adopted son, taken by force because your adopted son is too stupid and too TERRORIZED to defend the honor of his own wife and lets her pay the price for his own political advancement in the Empire of Mo the apostate who DID violate every single one of the Laws of Moses.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If I were a Christian I would disown this group of extremists in Florida instead of defending their free speech rights.

Just because we have free speech doesn't mean we should use it to incite ill will.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'd bet a million dollars that if this were a Muslim wanting to burn a Bible, all the people in here arguing against this man would be taking my position that we can't violate rights and that a muslim would have every right to burn a bible. If this guy weren't a self professed 'christian', there would barely be a wimper from those outraged over it.

Then you'd be paying me a lot of money. I would feel the same if Muslims were burning the Bible. Christians are not persecuted minorities in this country.

 

[Newby]

If I were a Christian I would disown this group of extremists in Florida instead of defending their free speech rights.

Just because we have free speech doesn't mean we should use it to incite ill will.

You don't get to decide when someone chooses to express their speech, and I will defend that regardless of the topic at hand.

 

[jillian]

She's gone further than that, but you're welcome to your opinion as well.

Where did she go further than that?

yes, he is making a political statement. if i recall correctly, i believe that should result in him losing his sweet little tax exemption on the property the church sits on.

that, combined with the mortgage being pulled...

and the fire insurance being canceled...

and the fire marshalls going to arrest them the minute they set fire to something that isn't twigs and branches....

and still the loon is going to do this.

you'd think if he was really listening for a sign from G-d... he'd be looking at the above.

*shrug*

Sounds like she wants more than to just voice her opposition.

no. but freedom of speech doesn't exempt you from breach of contract or violation of law.

1. there are tax laws that religions avail themselves of by virtue of being religious organizations. it is unlawful for any religious group to act politically in this fashion. now, churches are given huge leeway in this regard because there is great hesitation in interfering with religious speech...and as it should be. burning korans is not religious speech... it is a political statement about another group which probably crosses the line vis a vis the tax laws.

2. by burning books, they are endangering the property. as a result of them being, essentially, arsonists, their fire insurance was canceled (or i believe will be canceled if they do this). the insurance company has every right not to pay out a claim resulting from someone's own intentional and negligent acts.

3. they do not own the property. a bank does. by burning illegally on the premises, they are endangering the bank's investment. the bank has every right to demand that they repay the mortgage prior to the 11th if they anticipate their investment being endangered.

4. there are laws about lawful and permitted bonfires.... these do not include burning books.

are you suggesting that their freedom of speech exempts them from violation of the law? or from endangering the property of others?

 

[goldcatt]

I'm not so sure he has a right to incite violence in this way especially when it's aimed at another country and we happen to be at war in the vicinity.

This man is a nutcase, he has a very tiny group supporting his extremist pov and he is all over the news right now, why allow him to take his hatred just another step further?

We have a KKK march in my hometown from time to time and it takes extra police, people to control their urge to slug these baiters and for everyone else to swallow it and call it peaceful protest and KKK rights just because they aren't hanging someone from the highest tree.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Would you all allow the bible to be burned in protest without a fight?

There is a line. But burning books, any books, no matter how distasteful doesn't come anywhere near the standard required to remove speech from First Amendment protection. Neither does a peaceful rally even if there are calls for violence without more. I've posted it so many times I should have it bookmarked but your line falls where the violent behavior is both likely AND imminent. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.

Neither the Florida freaks nor your average KKK rally meet that definition. Nor do groups like WBC or talking heads on tv. BUT they can be punished if they break other laws in the process of speaking. Which is why you get trespassing or drunk and disorderly or vandalism arrests at rallies. It's not the speech being punished, it's the behavior that's against other laws. Speech doesn't make one immune from the consequences of other illegal behavior.