That freak in Florida doesn't speak for me

[Trajan]

hello, the danish cartoons got several people killed in riots in if I recall Pakistan....is it a stretch to think that this won't provoke some of the same fervor?

I think this is an alike situation as to the un-released photos of abu-graib, why release more, 3-4 years after the fact? I think we were right to keep them sequestered. What would have been the teachable moment or constructive point?

It would have re-stirred the angst without adding anything to the conversation or repaired any of the damage. Same here.

In fact its worse, he has no point, not in my view, there is no gain in learning or knowledge there is no advance in any way shape or form.

Setting yourself on fire for instance just to prove you have the will and power to do it doesn't make sense, neither does this.

 

[007]

yes, he is making a political statement.

I disagree. He's maintained for quite some time now that he believes islam is of the devil, clearly a religious POV, not political.

This is in front of his church...

 

[Newby]

What really stinks is he failed to get the required permit for the bonfire so if and when he gets arrested over it he'll cry that his free speech has been violated and then perception will become a reality.

The Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., said it will burn the Islamic holy book on the ninth anniversary of the terror attacks. Local officials have denied a permit for the bonfire on the church's grounds. But the center, which made headlines last year by distributing T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil,'' insists it will go ahead with the plan.

About 3,000 members of a hard-line Islamic group marched Saturday to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Jakarta, waving banners and posters condemning the plan. The group organized similar rallies in five other cities across Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation.

Muslims Protest Plans to Burn Quran - WSJ.com

You don't have to like what he's saying, but you should agree that he has the right to say it. The minute a large group of us go down this road of what is 'right' speech or 'wrong' speech, you can kiss this republic and the rest of your rights good bye.

 

[jillian]

It is alway's going to be something.

yes... and i've never believed we can make terrible people nice. but... when general petraeus is telling them that this act endangers his troops, don't you think they should listen.... if they're sane.

you're not justifying what this so-called christian is doing, are you?

No, I don't support it, I tolerate it. You notice how much we are forced to tolerate it these days.

He's sinking to their level. I don't see him as non Christian, but misguided. Do you think his action's will have any effect on Iran's Nuclear Program or Hezbollah????? Is the West Bank somehow more unsafe?????

iran, hezbollah and israel are not the issues.

IED's in afghanistan are the issue... and the ability to recruit people to engage in terroristic acts here.

and you can smile all you want about 'tolerance', and i assume you're talking about the mosque... but comparing book burning that endangers people to the building of a building that does not is self-serving. in fact, i'd compare the book-burning more to the loons who think it's ok to desecrate someone else's temple. you know... like the people here who think it's ok to do things like put pig fat on a mosque if they don't like it.

religious tolerance doesn't just exist for when you like people. if it did, we wouldn't need a constitution.

this type of sickness is infecting the world... and i, for one, don't appreciate people trying to destroy everything good about my country while wrapping themselves in g-d and the flag.

 

[Newby]

yes, he is making a political statement.

I disagree. He's maintained for quite some time now that he believes islam is of the devil, clearly a religious POV, not political.

He may think it's religious, but his right to speak about how he feels about it is political.

 

[martybegan]

Contact | Dove World Outreach Center

I have written to Pastor Jones as follows.

Sir,

I have seen news reports of your proposed burning of the Koran on 9/11/2010. I am writing to respectfully request that you do not undertake this symbolic gesture. Those of us with family and friends in the military - no matter what country they serve - suffer daily strain and concern about our loved ones who risk their lives to defend us. What is a symbolic gesture to you, may result in yet more dead US and other servicemen and women.

Your 'gesture' sickens real Christians, Jews and any other faith, as well as those of no faith. I was raised to ask one question when it comes to making big decisions in life: "What would Jesus do?". The Jesus I know would not burn the holy book of another faith. Nor is it the American way. We are not a nation of book burners - we are a nation of free people, we do not burn books - we embrace them. We embrace anyone, of whatever faith, who comes to us in peace. What you seek to do further drives a wedge between Christians and Muslims.

In the name of Christ, I ask you to reconsider. Please do not put my family, my friends, and the family and friends of other Americans, and other nations, in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere else around the world in further danger.

Thank you.

A well thought and written memorandum to the pastor in question. My main quibble is still the whole "your actions may cause others to be harmed, which would place part of the blame on you" direction of part of your post. Again, to me when it comes to legal speech it is "all on them, none on us." By even giving a smidge of respectability to extrimist behavior via "well, we made them do it by saying bunnies aren't fluffy" allows said extrimists to avoid responsibility for their asshattery.

I cannot change the minds of extremists - of any religion. If there are increased attacks on innocent civilians around the world in response to this stupid gesture... then that Pastor will have their blood on his hands as much as those who harm innocents. 'But for your actions'.... There is nothing to be gained by burning books - any books. It is pointless, stupid and meaningless.... but I travel around Europe... I would prefer that people like me not become targets for extremists because some fucking asshole who's probably never stepped outside the fucking country does something stupid. I don't mind having my life put at risk for the right reason - say, because of Afghanistan or Iraq.... but not for some publicity whore of a Pastor.

First of all, wow an actual discussion. Second, in my opnion the people who would carry out attacks would do it regardless. They would just use the pastors action as a sop to the media and the useful idiots who are swayed by them. In my opinon, resorting to "this will make them angry" to stop the guy from the Koran BBQ is an endorsement of people who are offended by it resorting to violence. If you want him not to do it, quote christian scripture, point out it will offend those of muslim faith, but dont say "if you do it, the next attack on X" is your fault.

 

[strollingbones]

i think the outer factions are just protecting themselves.....he plans to burn with a permit...that will cancell any insurance he has....why should the insurance companies be libal for an illegal event?
what if the dumbass falls in the fire and sues?

has any church ever really lost the tax emp? its threatened all the time but is it done?

again he has ever right to do this...and he has ever right to face the consequences of his actions

 

[Newby]

yes... and i've never believed we can make terrible people nice. but... when general petraeus is telling them that this act endangers his troops, don't you think they should listen.... if they're sane.

you're not justifying what this so-called christian is doing, are you?

No, I don't support it, I tolerate it. You notice how much we are forced to tolerate it these days.

He's sinking to their level. I don't see him as non Christian, but misguided. Do you think his action's will have any effect on Iran's Nuclear Program or Hezbollah????? Is the West Bank somehow more unsafe?????

iran, hezbollah and israel are not the issues.

IMD's in afghanistan are the issue... and the ability to recruit people to engage in terroristic acts here.

and you can smile all you want about 'tolerance', and i assume you're talking about the mosque... but comparing book burning that endangers people to the building of a building that does not is self-serving. in fact, i'd compare the book-burning more to the loons who think it's ok to desecrate someone else's temple. you know... like the people here who think it's ok to do things like put pig fat on a mosque if they don't like it.

religious tolerance doesn't just exist for when you like people. if it did, we wouldn't need a constitution.

this type of sickness is infecting the world... and i, for one, don't appreciate people trying to destroy everything good about my country while wrapping themselves in g-d and the flag.

book burning endangers people???

Okay, there's a ton of potential for people getting hurt at demonstrations too, let's ban them as well.

 

[goldcatt]

He isn't making a religious statement, but a political one.

He's a nut, for sure, but he is using what religious clout he has to express his political opinion.

And yes, he's a complete loon.

yes, he is making a political statement. if i recall correctly, i believe that should result in him losing his sweet little tax exemption on the property the church sits on.

that, combined with the mortgage being pulled...

and the fire insurance being canceled...

and the fire marshalls going to arrest them the minute they set fire to something that isn't twigs and branches....

and still the loon is going to do this.

you'd think if he was really listening for a sign from G-d... he'd be looking at the above.

*shrug*

That's right, because if you can't legally take away his free speech, just get him in any other way you can. Unbelieveable. This isn't about religion at all, it doesn't matter that he's a pastor or minister or whatever he is, he's a US citizen and has rights.

If he violates a pre-existing law in the course of exercising speech, being punished for breaking that law is not taking away his free speech. He can speak any way he pleases so long as in doing so he doesn't break other laws. It doesn't matter whether it's a local burn ordinance or laws against rape, kidnapping and murder, the same principle applies.

 

[007]

yes, he is making a political statement.

I disagree. He's maintained for quite some time now that he believes islam is of the devil, clearly a religious POV, not political.

He may think it's religious, but his right to speak about how he feels about it is political.

Irrelevant. His message is religious, and that's the point.

 

[Newby]

yes, he is making a political statement. if i recall correctly, i believe that should result in him losing his sweet little tax exemption on the property the church sits on.

that, combined with the mortgage being pulled...

and the fire insurance being canceled...

and the fire marshalls going to arrest them the minute they set fire to something that isn't twigs and branches....

and still the loon is going to do this.

you'd think if he was really listening for a sign from G-d... he'd be looking at the above.

*shrug*

That's right, because if you can't legally take away his free speech, just get him in any other way you can. Unbelieveable. This isn't about religion at all, it doesn't matter that he's a pastor or minister or whatever he is, he's a US citizen and has rights.

If he violates a pre-existing law in the course of exercising speech, being punished for breaking that law is not taking away his free speech. He can speak any way he pleases so long as in doing so he doesn't break other laws. It doesn't matter whether it's a local burn ordinance or laws against rape, kidnapping and murder, the same principle applies.

You don't get the simple point here, you are all against his right to free speech. You want to take that right away from because you don't agree with it, very dangerous. What's next?

 

[007]

religious tolerance doesn't just exist for when you like people.

Show me the tolerance...

 

[Newby]

I disagree. He's maintained for quite some time now that he believes islam is of the devil, clearly a religious POV, not political.

He may think it's religious, but his right to speak about how he feels about it is political.

Irrelevant. His message is religious, and that's the point.

But it doesn't matter what his message is, it's about his right to voice it, which it seems that several in here would be all in favor of taking away that right from him because they don't agree with him.

 

[martybegan]

His book burning will get soldiers killed just like the protests of a prayer center near GZ will.

Burning a book or protesting a mosque is not a reason for murder. Anyone who believes that is an asshole nutjob.

I can understand the concept of the anger over the book burning (any Koran is considered a holy item, not just a book) but anyone who thinks killing is a proper response for this needed a JDAM dropped on thier head.

I infer you believe there is a good reason(s) for murder. What are they?

This is a tough question, but for one, murder is illegal all the time. lets talk about when it is justified to kill someone. We have the obvious ones, in war time, in self defense, as the result of a legal process for execution (i know people disagree on that one.)

The tough issue is when we take a person, as an example, who believes that since pastor X burned some Korans, therefore someone has to pay with thier life. If the person takes this into thier own hands, the answer to me is simple, (see JDAM to the head as above.) The question becomes harder for a person who does not take it into thier own hands, but then provides support to people who can/will. Is this person not just as guilty as the person they supported? What about a person who advocates "Person X needs to die because of reason Y." If person X dies, is the advocate just as responsible? And what if the advocate isn't within reach of your juristiction, but is standing outside his cave, and you have him in the sights of said JDAM?

Again, I havent really decided what is the right move here, my JDAM comment was a little flippiant, to be honest.

 

[007]

He may think it's religious, but his right to speak about how he feels about it is political.

Irrelevant. His message is religious, and that's the point.

But it doesn't matter what his message is, it's about his right to voice it, which it seems that several in here would be all in favor of taking away that right from him because they don't agree with him.

Very dangerous, but two completely separate issues.

 

[jillian]

i can't see your images. they seem to be blocked at work.

but i'll take a wild guess and bet they show muslim intolerance.

and?

so because some people are scum, we should be scum?

if that's the case, then we aren't different from iran so why bother fussing about terrorists at all... may as well just give them the keys and close up shop.

 

[martybegan]

Contact | Dove World Outreach Center

I have written to Pastor Jones as follows.

Sir,

I have seen news reports of your proposed burning of the Koran on 9/11/2010. I am writing to respectfully request that you do not undertake this symbolic gesture. Those of us with family and friends in the military - no matter what country they serve - suffer daily strain and concern about our loved ones who risk their lives to defend us. What is a symbolic gesture to you, may result in yet more dead US and other servicemen and women.

Your 'gesture' sickens real Christians, Jews and any other faith, as well as those of no faith. I was raised to ask one question when it comes to making big decisions in life: "What would Jesus do?". The Jesus I know would not burn the holy book of another faith. Nor is it the American way. We are not a nation of book burners - we are a nation of free people, we do not burn books - we embrace them. We embrace anyone, of whatever faith, who comes to us in peace. What you seek to do further drives a wedge between Christians and Muslims.

In the name of Christ, I ask you to reconsider. Please do not put my family, my friends, and the family and friends of other Americans, and other nations, in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere else around the world in further danger.

Thank you.

A well thought and written memorandum to the pastor in question. My main quibble is still the whole "your actions may cause others to be harmed, which would place part of the blame on you" direction of part of your post. Again, to me when it comes to legal speech it is "all on them, none on us." By even giving a smidge of respectability to extrimist behavior via "well, we made them do it by saying bunnies aren't fluffy" allows said extrimists to avoid responsibility for their asshattery.

I can understand that sentiment....

However, actions bring reactions....and these people have not been reared in the same manner as us, they have been taught revenge is holy, a whole nuther thing...and since they are our enemy, we should know them and their antics, and know that they will USE something like this, to further their own asshattery.

They will use anything, hell even the fact that he MIGHT do it. These are the same people who saw some squiggle in a nike shoe pattern that looked like the word for Allah and freaked out. Pandering to them only lessens our own sense of morals, and does nothing to change thiers.

That being said, people should keep writing the pastor, hell even show up for a counter demonstration. I have no issue with that, even if I think you are using the wrong points.

 

[xotoxi]

But it doesn't matter what his message is, it's about his right to voice it, which it seems that several in here would be all in favor of taking away that right from him because they don't agree with him.

Has anyone here actually advocated that the right be taken away from him?

Or are people advocating that he choose not to do it?

 

[jillian]

But it doesn't matter what his message is, it's about his right to voice it, which it seems that several in here would be all in favor of taking away that right from him because they don't agree with him.

1. he does not have the right to use a church for politcal purpose and avail himself of our tax laws.

2. where do you see anyone 'taking away' his right of free speech. people are opining that he's a disgusting, immoral fake christian who SHOULDN'T burn books.

3. Would you be defending the right to free speech of some muslim to stand in front of your church and burn bibles?

i'm gonna bet the answer is no.

why does someone's RIGHT to say something mean I can't call them a piece of garbage for saying it?

 

[jillian]

But it doesn't matter what his message is, it's about his right to voice it, which it seems that several in here would be all in favor of taking away that right from him because they don't agree with him.

Has anyone here actually advocated that the right be taken away from him?

Or are people advocating that he choose not to do it?

but... but... he's a christian, so he must be being victimized by the godless hoardes.

and no... no one is 'taking away' his right to speech.

they're just calling him the loser he is.