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Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
More than 50 DGU make the news per year, they just do not make front page headlines.
The reason there are only about 230 criminals killed in firearm justifiable homicide cases is for a couple of reasons--- the first is not really relevant to your point(but I will mention it merely for your edification), but the second is...
1.) FBI stats are based upon initial police reporting. Almost all legitimate self defense killings are not classified as self defense by the police, instead they classify it as a criminal homicide and defer a decision to the District Attorney who may or may not recommend prosecution. Even if the DA does recommend prosecution they can and do lose at trial based upon self defense. It is estimated that if you include the number of persons who were not prosecuted by the DA because of a determination of self defense by the DA and if you add the number of acquittals based upon self defense the number would increase by at least 500 to 750.
2.)The 2nd reason for the low body count, and of prime importance is that you rarely have to fire your weapon for there to be an effective DGU, merely cycling your Joe Biden approved shotgun will oft times have the desired effect, which is why the police only have about 450 justifiable homicides per year.
The fact remains that almost all researchers believe there are at least 500,000 dgu's per year.
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Most people don't want to kill other people. The reason why there are so few DGU with fatalities I because people are nice and don't just shoot people because they can.
I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.
There is a dispute as to just how many DGU's occur per year. They range from a high of 3 million to a low of 500,000. Most researchers believe that there are at least 800,000 DGU's per year.
“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”
"PRIORITIES FOR RESEARCH TO REDUCE THE THREAT OF FIREARM-RELATED VIOLENCE" Report of CDC 2013 by the National Academy of Sciences.
I have supported all my numbers with links. Most of your studies are fantasy. Take your Kleck survey. 50 false positives on a survey turn into 2.5 million defenses. That is approximately 2.5 million imaginary defenses. They never actually happened. Even the 50 aren't confirmed in any way. And not an ounce of reality supports the huge numbers.
There is a dispute as to just how many DGU's occur per year. They range from a high of 3 million to a low of 500,000. Most researchers believe that there are at least 800,000 DGU's per year.
“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”
"PRIORITIES FOR RESEARCH TO REDUCE THE THREAT OF FIREARM-RELATED VIOLENCE" Report of CDC 2013 by the National Academy of Sciences.
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
Coward.....
Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...
Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....
Lying shows you are losing....
Brain, all you and your gun grabber buddies have are lies and emotion......Kleck is one of the best studies out there and his isn't even the only study...but since you can't touch his study you lie about it and then try to hide the number of studies actually done that show you are wrong...
I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC
And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
--------------------
Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)
Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)
Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)
Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....
And 11 of them say it is under 2 million. And the fact they all arrive at vastly different numbers shows how inaccurate a survey is for DGUs. If they were accurate they would all arrive at similar numbers. And again those numbers aren't supported by anything in reality. Only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 make the news a year. Your numbers have more crimes defended than committed...
Coward.....
Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...
Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....
Lying shows you are losing....
Brain, all you and your gun grabber buddies have are lies and emotion......Kleck is one of the best studies out there and his isn't even the only study...but since you can't touch his study you lie about it and then try to hide the number of studies actually done that show you are wrong...
I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC
And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
--------------------
Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)
Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)
Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)
Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....
And 11 of them say it is under 2 million. And the fact they all arrive at vastly different numbers shows how inaccurate a survey is for DGUs. If they were accurate they would all arrive at similar numbers. And again those numbers aren't supported by anything in reality. Only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 make the news a year. Your numbers have more crimes defended than committed...
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Most people don't want to kill other people. The reason why there are so few DGU with fatalities I because people are nice and don't just shoot people because they can.
On this very board there are people who can't wait to shoot a criminal. Certainly what you are saying is true for many people. To believe there are 2 million defenses each year you'd have to believe a criminal is shot and killed one out of every 8700 defenses. People just aren't that nice. Keep in mind that 500 people are accidently shot and killed each year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
More than 50 DGU make the news per year, they just do not make front page headlines.
The reason there are only about 230 criminals killed in firearm justifiable homicide cases is for a couple of reasons--- the first is not really relevant to your point(but I will mention it merely for your edification), but the second is...
1.) FBI stats are based upon initial police reporting. Almost all legitimate self defense killings are not classified as self defense by the police, instead they classify it as a criminal homicide and defer a decision to the District Attorney who may or may not recommend prosecution. Even if the DA does recommend prosecution they can and do lose at trial based upon self defense. It is estimated that if you include the number of persons who were not prosecuted by the DA because of a determination of self defense by the DA and if you add the number of acquittals based upon self defense the number would increase by at least 500 to 750.
2.)The 2nd reason for the low body count, and of prime importance is that you rarely have to fire your weapon for there to be an effective DGU, merely cycling your Joe Biden approved shotgun will oft times have the desired effect, which is why the police only have about 450 justifiable homicides per year.
The fact remains that almost all researchers believe there are at least 500,000 dgu's per year.
Even with the internet, the NRA can only dig up maybe 50 a year. There aren't more making the news.
I think I'll believe the FBI number. But please link a valid source for your claim.
So what from reality supports so many gun defenses?
Who are these researchers? Link? Hemenway certainly knows it is less.
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Most people don't want to kill other people. The reason why there are so few DGU with fatalities I because people are nice and don't just shoot people because they can.
On this very board there are people who can't wait to shoot a criminal. Certainly what you are saying is true for many people. To believe there are 2 million defenses each year you'd have to believe a criminal is shot and killed one out of every 8700 defenses. People just aren't that nice. Keep in mind that 500 people are accidently shot and killed each year.
Not quite.Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Most people don't want to kill other people. The reason why there are so few DGU with fatalities I because people are nice and don't just shoot people because they can.
On this very board there are people who can't wait to shoot a criminal. Certainly what you are saying is true for many people. To believe there are 2 million defenses each year you'd have to believe a criminal is shot and killed one out of every 8700 defenses. People just aren't that nice. Keep in mind that 500 people are accidently shot and killed each year.
The majority of criminals fear armed citizens more than the police according to a study.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
The majority of criminals fear armed citizens more than the police according to a study.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
The majority of criminals fear armed citizens more than the police according to a study.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
And speaking as a member of the Sheriff's Auxiliary Volunteers, many police fear armed citizens more than they fear criminals.
The majority of criminals fear armed citizens more than the police according to a study.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
And speaking as a member of the Sheriff's Auxiliary Volunteers, many police fear armed citizens more than they fear criminals.
That doesn't make sense. Armed criminals are probably also armed citizens.
The majority of criminals fear armed citizens more than the police according to a study.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cl...72579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
And speaking as a member of the Sheriff's Auxiliary Volunteers, many police fear armed citizens more than they fear criminals.
Says the guy too scared to go anywhere without a gun...
Says the guy who wants women raped rather than allowing them to stop the rape with a gun....
Lying shows you are losing....
Brain, all you and your gun grabber buddies have are lies and emotion......Kleck is one of the best studies out there and his isn't even the only study...but since you can't touch his study you lie about it and then try to hide the number of studies actually done that show you are wrong...
I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC
And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
--------------------
Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)
Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)
Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)
Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....
And 11 of them say it is under 2 million. And the fact they all arrive at vastly different numbers shows how inaccurate a survey is for DGUs. If they were accurate they would all arrive at similar numbers. And again those numbers aren't supported by anything in reality. Only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 make the news a year. Your numbers have more crimes defended than committed...
They all arrive at numbers over 764,000....all 16 of them.....and then they fall between that and 3 million....
Yes we don't actually know how many there are. The NCVS says 108,000 per year which I think is the most accurate. Most gun surveys are tiny(5,000 or fewer surveyed) and filled with false positives. The NCVS study involves 90k households. There simply isn't any real world facts to support the huge numbers. You can't believe there are 800,000 DGUs a year, but only 230 criminals shot and killed in defense? Only about 50 make the news even though guns and crime make great stories?
The 1993 NCVS number is acknowledged by almost all researchers as understating the true number of DGU's because the participants in the study are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.
"Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
As I said, most researchers believe the actual number is at least 500,000 per year.
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
Most people don't want to kill other people. The reason why there are so few DGU with fatalities I because people are nice and don't just shoot people because they can.
On this very board there are people who can't wait to shoot a criminal. Certainly what you are saying is true for many people. To believe there are 2 million defenses each year you'd have to believe a criminal is shot and killed one out of every 8700 defenses. People just aren't that nice. Keep in mind that 500 people are accidently shot and killed each year.
You have no clue brain....using dudes posting on the internet as your source for the desire of real human beings....law abiding, normal, non sociopaths to shoot or not shoot violent criminals is how you measure it......as was pointed out even the police...who have to not just drive off an attack, but pursue the violent attacker and capture them don't kill that much considering the population size....and thanks for the number Legal Eagle.....
Well look at the facts we know. Only about 230 criminals killed in defense each year. Only about 50 defenses makes the news each year. People who have had a DGU are rare, I don't know anyone.
The NCVS asks about crime which is what you need to have a DGU. And it does ask what happened very clearly so DGUs would be noted.
More than 50 DGU make the news per year, they just do not make front page headlines.
The reason there are only about 230 criminals killed in firearm justifiable homicide cases is for a couple of reasons--- the first is not really relevant to your point(but I will mention it merely for your edification), but the second is...
1.) FBI stats are based upon initial police reporting. Almost all legitimate self defense killings are not classified as self defense by the police, instead they classify it as a criminal homicide and defer a decision to the District Attorney who may or may not recommend prosecution. Even if the DA does recommend prosecution they can and do lose at trial based upon self defense. It is estimated that if you include the number of persons who were not prosecuted by the DA because of a determination of self defense by the DA and if you add the number of acquittals based upon self defense the number would increase by at least 500 to 750.
2.)The 2nd reason for the low body count, and of prime importance is that you rarely have to fire your weapon for there to be an effective DGU, merely cycling your Joe Biden approved shotgun will oft times have the desired effect, which is why the police only have about 450 justifiable homicides per year.
The fact remains that almost all researchers believe there are at least 500,000 dgu's per year.
Even with the internet, the NRA can only dig up maybe 50 a year. There aren't more making the news.
I think I'll believe the FBI number. But please link a valid source for your claim.
So what from reality supports so many gun defenses?
Who are these researchers? Link? Hemenway certainly knows it is less.
Hemenway pushes the NCVS numbers because he is an anti gunner with ties to the anti gun lobby.....in the past he was closely connected with Hand Gun control Inc.
