Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[OKTexas]

OKTexas -

I don't know if the figures are reliable or not. Certainly it isn't hard to admit that they aren't the easiest to make sense of.

However, the conclusions are almost certainly correct, because multiple studies have reached much the same conclusion.

Maybe the author shouldn't have been so lazy and cited better studies. I am only addressing the OP.

 

[Saigon]

OKTexas -

Speaking as a journalist, it is very difficult to put together a story like this and have it both be reliable and transparent, but not confusing. It's difficult because the journalist wants to pack in the facts and numbers, but in doing so has to use multiple references, and then it's difficult to know what numbers come from what source. I think the main issue is how the information is organised.

 

[Bfgrn]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

This is the cognitive level you are dealing with:

"People are not on unemployment for 2 years because there are no jobs. There are no jobs because people are on unemployment for 2 years."
The Rabbi

 

[OKTexas]

OKTexas -

Speaking as a journalist, it is very difficult to put together a story like this and have it both be reliable and transparent, but not confusing. It's difficult because the journalist wants to pack in the facts and numbers, but in doing so has to use multiple references, and then it's difficult to know what numbers come from what source. I think the main issue is how the information is organised.

Well I'll never claim to be a journalist but I know spin when I see it, and the OP is packed with it, drawing conclusions the references don't support. As I stated in my reply above, concerning no civilians have stopped mass shootings. There have been many shooters stopped by civilians at schools and other public places before they reached the level of mass shooting which is usually 5 or more victims. I used the Oregon mall shooter as an example.

 

[Bfgrn]

1) They are Coming for your guns.

You are right, at the CURRENT MOMENT, this is a myth. First they will have us law abiding citizens sign onto a National Gun Registry. Once they have acquired our names and addresses, they will use blatantly false arguments and take advantage of more tragedies to use that Registrar to then confiscate our guns.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."

-Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

There are two common "strains" of the Sarah Brady bogus quote, one short, one long.

BOGUS, FAKE & QUESTIONABLE QUOTES FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO THE ANTI-GUNNERS

 

[Saigon]

OKTexas -

The information is correct.

It does not make any claims about POTENTIAL mass shootings. I am sure we'd all agree that in some cases a potential mass shooting has been avoided due to a shooter figuring the odds were against him, but what the journalist means is that there has never been a mass shooting where an armed civilian has shot the assailant and thus prevented MORE deaths.

Given the NRA claim arming everyone would reduce mass shootings - I think it's a valid point.

'In the wake of the massacres this year at a Colorado movie theater, a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, and Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. And in other recent (but less lethal) rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, those civilians not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public places, including bars, parks, and schools.'

More Guns, More Mass Shootings?Coincidence? | Mother Jones

 

[The2ndAmendment]

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."

Starting off your argument with an unsourced, fictitious quote doesn't speak well of your reliability.

The citation is directly below, did you miss:

-Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

????

However, I'll allow you to fix your post, since it is very possible that you missed the citation, since it wasn't the quote box. If you don't' fix it, prepare yourself Mr Journalist for A LOT of Neg rep.

Also, you didn't' address the problem with Myth Number 7. The US Department of Justice clearly said that women who are armed have a 2.5 times greater survival rate. It also says that over 2 million crimes are stopped each year by simply showing a gun.

 

[Saigon]

2nd Amendement -

The quote is (obviously) entirely bogus.

But by all means produce a quote, video clip, audio bite or verifiable source for it. Or, perhaps save time and just admit that it's entirely fictitious.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

2nd Amendement -

The quote is (obviously) entirely bogus.

But by all means produce a quote, video clip, audio bite or verifiable source for it. Or, perhaps save time and just admit that it's entirely fictitious.

1) Google search it

2) YOu still haven't acknowledged the US Department of Justice findings.

Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter i

Replies



Why do conservatives think that Democrats want to completely ban the weapons? - Yahoo! Answers

If you can however find conclusive evidence that this IS a BOGUS quote, then by all means do so. Saying that something is a BOGUS quote is very convenient.

Also, how are those DOJ findings doing? Also, since you gave me neg rep, I'm going to humiliate you everywhere you go now, and get everyone to neg rep you.

 

[Saigon]

2nd Amendment -

Your quote is fictitious.

I'm happy to look at some of your other points once you have admitted and apologised for posting it. Not before.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

2nd Amendment -

Your quote is fictitious.

Can you provide a link showing that is is fictitious? The most I found was that she has never sued for libel, after reading several pages claiming this quote to be Bogus.
Also, by the chance that it was Bogus, why else would the left seek to disarm law abiding citizens?

Also, how are those Department of Justice statistics holding up for you?

However, since I cannot confirm the quote, I will remove it from this thread.

 

[MeBelle]

With all due respect, the studies you cite are 10+ years old.
How about something more relevant to what is happening with society today?

Point #5:

Read More: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

There seem to be several sources for that point - this is only one of them.

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Homicide

While not all of these papers are available on the net, you can buy them in book form for a few bucks - I did, and found it well worth reading.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

2nd Amendment -

Your quote is fictitious.

I'm happy to look at some of your other points once you have admitted and apologised for posting it. Not before.

I will remove it, I will not apologize for it, unless you can actually prove it is a bogus quote.

Now let's move onto Myth Number 7.

 

[Saigon]

MeBelle -

Yes, the studies are now quite old - although I don't see that this makes the results of the research much less useful. It would be nice to have an update, of course.

But it seems unlikely that the ratio of something like suicides/gun ownership will have changed radically in the past 10 years.

2nd Amendment -

Yes, fair enough.

 

[jtpr312]

It took me to get as far as Fact #1 to realize your "Fact Check" was full of crap, so therefore the rest of your post must be more crap. Specifically; "never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this" in regards to disarming citizens/confiscating firearms.


On January 13, 2013, H.R. 226 was introduced in the House of Representatives by Connecticut Democrat Rep. Rosa DeLauro (IRS credit to citizens who allow government to confiscate their firearms)

Diane Fiensein says her goal is to disarm all Americans.
http://Video: Dianne Feinstein Says Her Goal is to Disarm All Americans ...►►www.infowars.com/video-dianne-feinstein-says-prepar...


We won't even get into all the Socialist Democrats at the state level that are proposing gun confiscation laws, with an end goal of totally disarming it's citizens. Places like MO., MN, OR, NY, CA and WA to name a few.

 

[Unkotare]

Speaking as a journalist...

 

[Saigon]

Myth #7:

A little more info on one of the studies cited:

Objectives. This 11-city study sought to identify risk factors for femicide in abusive relationships.

Methods. Proxies of 220 intimate partner femicide victims identified from police or medical examiner records were interviewed, along with 343 abused control women.

Results. Preincident risk factors associated in multivariate analyses with increased risk of intimate partner femicide included perpetrator’s access to a gun and previous threat with a weapon, perpetrator’s stepchild in the home, and estrangement, especially from a controlling partner. Never living together and prior domestic violence arrest were associated with lowered risks. Significant incident factors included the victim having left for another partner and the perpetrator’s use of a gun. Other significant bivariate-level risks included stalking, forced sex, and abuse during pregnancy.

Conclusions. There are identifiable risk factors for intimate partner femicides.

Risk Factors for Femicide in Abusive Relationships: Results From a Multisite Case Control Study

It's not a massive sample, but the research looks solid to me, and the conclusions reasonable. More info in the link.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Myth #7:

A little more info on one of the studies cited:

Objectives. This 11-city study sought to identify risk factors for femicide in abusive relationships.

Methods. Proxies of 220 intimate partner femicide victims identified from police or medical examiner records were interviewed, along with 343 abused control women.

Results. Preincident risk factors associated in multivariate analyses with increased risk of intimate partner femicide included perpetrator’s access to a gun and previous threat with a weapon, perpetrator’s stepchild in the home, and estrangement, especially from a controlling partner. Never living together and prior domestic violence arrest were associated with lowered risks. Significant incident factors included the victim having left for another partner and the perpetrator’s use of a gun. Other significant bivariate-level risks included stalking, forced sex, and abuse during pregnancy.

Conclusions. There are identifiable risk factors for intimate partner femicides.

Risk Factors for Femicide in Abusive Relationships: Results From a Multisite Case Control Study

It's not a massive sample, but the research looks solid to me, and the conclusions reasonable. More info in the link.

The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey reports that the probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller: offering no resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than resisting with a gun.

Also, let's debunk hidden myth number 11:

"An armed population cannot fight a tyrannical government."


Why this hidden myth? Because even if all of the OP's arguments were true, IT WOULD NOT CHANGE MY THOUGHTS ON THE 2nd AMENDMENT AT ALL. The 2nd Amendment is a deterrent to tyranny, and in 1946, the only practical way to regain their liberties. Crime, on the other hand, is an afterthought.

 

[editec]

This board seems to be morphing into an "All gun threads all the time" model.

And people wonder why I call some people gun queer?

Incidently you're gun queer if you:

1. obsess about people taking away your guns, or;

2. obsess about the people who have guns.

 

[candycorn]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

Of all of them, I find #8 is the "most mythic". We don't have but a few games/books/movies here that they don't have overseas. Yet we have a shocking gun killing about once a month. They don't seem to have as many overseas.

Obviously the culture is NOT to blame, it's our ordinances and laws...unless you just think that Americans are more homicidal than others