Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[NoNukes]

Who will fact check the fact checkers?
Number of mass shootings stopped by good guys with guns, Zero? Rly?
Hero guard shot thwarting attack at Family Research Council HQ | Fox News

The people who should listen never will.

 

[NoNukes]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
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Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

Myth 10 Gun owners are intelligent, well informed people who will listen to the facts and then act with common sense.

 

[Sallow]

Talk about a bunch of bull shit, the author can't even address conflicting stats with reality so I'm only going to point out one that jumped out at me but there are many more.

From your link:

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

Also from your link:

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

According to the CDC there are 11,032 homicides and 55,534 assaults by firearms which is no where close to the claimed 22.4 million.According to the CDC there are only 19,392 gun suicides in the US no where close to the 35.2 million your author claims with his cherry picked stats.
The latest data I could find from the CDC on accident was for 1998 was about 15,000 once again no where close to the 12.8 million the author would indicate.

So your myths seem to myths themselves, care to try again?

CDC??

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?ref=us&pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Skull Pilot]

Quite frankly I put little stock in statistics when it comes to guns.

I grew up shooting with people who shoot and own guns and no one not one person I have ever met has injured himself or someone else with a gun. No one has brandished a gun at his or her spouse during a argument, no one has committed suicide etc.

Those numbers just don't jive with my life experience.

 

[The Rabbi]

This really is an excellent thread - and nice to see facts rather than opinions.


bw. Congratulations on humiliating the Rabbi. Getting Neg Rep from him is life getting a card conceding defeat.

Oh I know, and he's got the quickest trigger finger in USMBdom, negging the second you own him, but wtf, he makes it so easy; he brings a rhetorical truck-sized hole marked "Drive through me". Who am I to deny his wish?

You understand your thread is getting savaged by other posters, constantly pointing out even just the internal contradictions in what you posted, right? How this becomes some kind of "victory" is beyond me.

 

[The Rabbi]

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Homicide

While not all of these papers are available on the net, you can buy them in book form for a few bucks - I did, and found it well worth reading.

Yes, when criminals have guns they tend to shoot people with them. Blinding flash of the obvious.
Maye you'd like to read this Harvard study since you put so much faith in them.
Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive | The American Civil Rights Union

 

[The Rabbi]

OKTexas -

I don't know if the figures are reliable or not. Certainly it isn't hard to admit that they aren't the easiest to make sense of.

However, the conclusions are almost certainly correct, because multiple studies have reached much the same conclusion.

So you admit the figures are bogus but still think the conclusion is correct because other bogus studies confirm this conclusion? Rly?
Ever hear of "confirmation bias" Sparky?

 

[JoeB131]

Who will fact check the fact checkers?
Number of mass shootings stopped by good guys with guns, Zero? Rly?
Hero guard shot thwarting attack at Family Research Council HQ | Fox News

You see, Rabid, this is where you are being disingenous...

the fact checker said..

Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years

Not armed, trained security personnel.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

Myth 10 Gun owners are intelligent, well informed people who will listen to the facts and then act with common sense.

Rich irony. Many posters have pointed both internal and external contradictions to the OP and you ignore all of them.
Myth 11: Anti gunners are interested in truth and facts.

 

[JoeB131]

Quite frankly I put little stock in statistics when it comes to guns.

I grew up shooting with people who shoot and own guns and no one not one person I have ever met has injured himself or someone else with a gun. No one has brandished a gun at his or her spouse during a argument, no one has committed suicide etc.

Those numbers just don't jive with my life experience.

My next door neighbor shot himself after the police refused to confiscate his gun after a failed earlier attempt.

Umm... yeah, guns in the home are more dangerous to the people in them. Every collected stat has confirmed this.

But the gun makers are making big money, and that's the important thing.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

Of all of them, I find #8 is the "most mythic". We don't have but a few games/books/movies here that they don't have overseas. Yet we have a shocking gun killing about once a month. They don't seem to have as many overseas.

Obviously the culture is NOT to blame, it's our ordinances and laws...unless you just think that Americans are more homicidal than others

Clearly that is not the case.
Memphis TN and Knoxville TN operate under exactly the same laws. According to you they should have exactly the same rate of violent crime involving guns. In fact Memphis has 80% more than Knoxville.
Mexico has very strict gun regulation. Switzerland does not. Illinois has very strict gun regulation. Vermont does not. We could go on and on showing counter examples.

 

[The Rabbi]

Quite frankly I put little stock in statistics when it comes to guns.

I grew up shooting with people who shoot and own guns and no one not one person I have ever met has injured himself or someone else with a gun. No one has brandished a gun at his or her spouse during a argument, no one has committed suicide etc.

Those numbers just don't jive with my life experience.

My next door neighbor shot himself after the police refused to confiscate his gun after a failed earlier attempt.

Umm... yeah, guns in the home are more dangerous to the people in them. Every collected stat has confirmed this.

But the gun makers are making big money, and that's the important thing.

One anecdote does not mean evidence. Fail.

 

[Saigon]

Myth 10 Gun owners are intelligent, well informed people who will listen to the facts and then act with common sense.

It does seem that way, at times.

Which is a shame for the millions of American gun owners who are sane, caring and sensible in their gun use and in their attitudes towards guns.

On this thread it's easy to get the idea that the average gun owner still thinks the US murder rate is about average.

 

[Saigon]

2nd Amendement -

The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey reports that the probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller: offering no
resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than resisting with a gun.

Can we see a link for thi study?

 

[NoNukes]

Who will fact check the fact checkers?
Number of mass shootings stopped by good guys with guns, Zero? Rly?
Hero guard shot thwarting attack at Family Research Council HQ | Fox News

Do you even bother to read your own links? Yeah.............it WAS a security guard that stopped the gunman, but he didn't shoot him, he wrestled him to the ground and took his gun away from him, which is why the guard was shot.

You'd have a point if the guard drew down on the gunman and shot him, but ANYONE who is unarmed can wrestle someone to the ground and take their weapon away.

Sorry, but no points for guns this round.

You are letting the facts get in the way.

 

[NoNukes]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

That's because Rabbi's always been a gutless piece of shit. Right, Rabbi?

He negs people whenever he gets his ass handed to him (which is often since he's a mental lightweight).

True.

 

[NoNukes]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

That's because Rabbi's always been a gutless piece of shit. Right, Rabbi?

He negs people whenever he gets his ass handed to him (which is often since he's a mental lightweight).

If I am not mistaken, doesn't the Rabbi own a gun shop? Someone in here from Texas said that they owned one, and I think that it is the Rabbi. If so, he would be biased against this survey whether he thought it was true or not.

Rabbi- my apologies if you are not the one Ivam thinking of.

 

[Old Rocks]

seems to me these statistics say it all for gun ownership in the US;

American Gun Deaths to Exceed Traffic Fatalities by 2015 - Bloomberg

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah we all know how accurate projections are.

 

[skookerasbil]

This thead is gay........

Who cares? In the end, Congress MIGHT end up passing federal background checks, but thats about it. 100% certain.

The limpwristers out there think this is all NRA, as if the NRA didnt represent people. The limpwristers have no clue how infinately important hunting season is to tens of millions of Americans ( second only to Christmas ). You fuck with that, your ass gets thrown out of office. These people you dont fuck with as compared to the masses of Dem voters who dont give a flying fuck about virtually anything until a general election requires them to show up to ensure they continue to get the free stuff.

The whole gun issue is a ruse for the Dems and they know it.........putting up a dog and pony show right now for the base they need to show up in 2014.


Anyway.........notice those on the left never post up any threads that speak to how gun bans dramatically increase gun crime, as if there is no necessary tradeoff for banning guns. To them, public policy "results" is always looked at as a zero sum game.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm