Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[Pogo]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

 

[Pogo]

This one's for point 3:

 

[The Rabbi]

Who will fact check the fact checkers?
Number of mass shootings stopped by good guys with guns, Zero? Rly?
Hero guard shot thwarting attack at Family Research Council HQ | Fox News

 

[Pogo]

Well here it is -- it was only a matter of time:

Today, 12:16 AM

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -583 reputation points from The Rabbi.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
dunce

Regards,
The Rabbi

This is a first; I actually got negged for creating a topic. No discussion, no exchange, just a straight neg from a rhetorical pissant so drowning in his own insecurities that he just wants to shut people up. Too much of a spineless coward to debate. This is how afraid some people are of facing their hangups I guess.

Is this typical of the Right? Or of rabbis? Or just those who don't know baseball from their ass? You tell me.

Anybody else have the balls to discuss this without running to the neg machine like a little girl? (meant figuratively of course)

Actually this is illutrative; TheCrybabbi is illustrating the point that "gun nuts" go to their armamental paraphernalia to make up for the part of "gun nuts" that isn't "gun" -- and in the process demonstrate the whole fallacy of gun abuse: "shoot first, ask questions later". Literally.

 

[The Rabbi]

I point out only the most obvious fallacy and you go straight to ad hom.
You're a pitiful piece of shit.

 

[OKTexas]

Talk about a bunch of bull shit, the author can't even address conflicting stats with reality so I'm only going to point out one that jumped out at me but there are many more.

From your link:

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

Also from your link:

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

According to the CDC there are 11,032 homicides and 55,534 assaults by firearms which is no where close to the claimed 22.4 million.
According to the CDC there are only 19,392 gun suicides in the US no where close to the 35.2 million your author claims with his cherry picked stats.
The latest data I could find from the CDC on accident was for 1998 was about 15,000 once again no where close to the 12.8 million the author would indicate.

So your myths seem to myths themselves, care to try again?

 

[Saigon]

This really is an excellent thread - and nice to see facts rather than opinions.


bw. Congratulations on humiliating the Rabbi. Getting Neg Rep from him is life getting a card conceding defeat.

 

[Pogo]

I point out only the most obvious fallacy and you go straight to ad hom.
You're a pitiful piece of shit.

Wrong, asshole. You came in with neg guns blazing. I didn't even get to respond, you negged the thread itself. That's how insecure you are; you can't stand the thought that a dialogue might take place and you melt down in your diapers.

You can't "ad hominem" if you haven't even started a debate. Neg is not debate. Dumb shit.

Well Crybabbi, you go ahead and neg me every 48 hours for the rest of your life; this is the dialogue I came to this site to engage in and by god no pissant is going to intimidate that dialogue from happening. You don't like it-- there's the door. So go fuck yourself. With Stan Musial's baseball bat.

See that next guy OKTexas? Check his sig line; that's how a grownup handles it. Learn something.

 

[Ernie S.]

This really is an excellent thread - and nice to see facts rather than opinions.


bw. Congratulations on humiliating the Rabbi. Getting Neg Rep from him is life getting a card conceding defeat.

I'm sure OKTexas appreciates your congratulations on posting facts, though I fail to see how anyone has humiliated anyone but the data presented in the OP.

 

[Saigon]

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

No - because not all acts of self defense occur "in the home".

Two different stats there.

 

[Pogo]

Talk about a bunch of bull shit, the author can't even address conflicting stats with reality so I'm only going to point out one that jumped out at me but there are many more.

From your link:

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

Also from your link:

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

According to the CDC there are 11,032 homicides and 55,534 assaults by firearms which is no where close to the claimed 22.4 million.
According to the CDC there are only 19,392 gun suicides in the US no where close to the 35.2 million your author claims with his cherry picked stats.
The latest data I could find from the CDC on accident was for 1998 was about 15,000 once again no where close to the 12.8 million the author would indicate.

So your myths seem to myths themselves, care to try again?

I think you got some lines mixed up here OKT. When they said 1% of the pop reported using a gun in self defence, the point that flowed from that was "However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument." That's got nothing to do with how many assaults or suicides. Different point.

I know there' s a lot going on in there and the links are hard to see. Did you see the link for the NIH reports to support #5?

 

[Unkotare]

bw. Congratulations on humiliating the Rabbi. Getting Neg Rep from him is life [sic] getting a card conceding defeat.

Is that what it's "life"? It doesn't sound life you life him very much. You're not a very lifable person yourselk, you lnow.

 

[Ernie S.]

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up

But then:

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...

We don't know how many guns Americans own, but we know that an unknown number of Americans own 7.9 of them?

Did you even read this shit before you clicked send?

 

[OKTexas]

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

No - because not all acts of self defense occur "in the home".

Two different stats there.

Really, did you look at how they came up with the numbers, first they only used numbers from 3 cities and only the numbers where there was an injury or death. There are hunders of thousands if not millions of instances where a firearm is used for home defense where there are no injuries and their myth ingnores them. Just more proof that when you control the input you can make stats say anything you want. Care to try again.

 

[Pogo]

This really is an excellent thread - and nice to see facts rather than opinions.


bw. Congratulations on humiliating the Rabbi. Getting Neg Rep from him is life getting a card conceding defeat.

Oh I know, and he's got the quickest trigger finger in USMBdom, negging the second you own him, but wtf, he makes it so easy; he brings a rhetorical truck-sized hole marked "Drive through me". Who am I to deny his wish?

 

[Saigon]

We don't know how many guns Americans own, but we know that an unknown number of Americans own 7.9 of them?

Did you even read this shit before you clicked send?

Exactly...is this difficult to understand?

Research can determine how many guns the average person sampled owns (legaly).

From that we can extrapolate an estimate for the total, but it is impossible to determine how accurate that figure will be because gangs are rarely asked - and aren't likely to answer - poll questions.

 

[Saigon]

Really, did you look at how they came up with the numbers, first they only used numbers from 3 cities and only the numbers where there was an injury or death. There are hunders of thousands if not millions of instances where a firearm is used for home defense where there are no injuries and their myth ingnores them. Just more proof that when you control the input you can make stats say anything you want. Care to try again.

I am not going to say these figures are perfect because I haven't looked at the methodology - BUT, I have read research with excellent peer-reviewed statistical methodology conducted at Harvard - and the conclusions were broadly similar.

I suggest reading some of the Harvard research before attacking these too harshly.

 

[Pogo]

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

No - because not all acts of self defense occur "in the home".

Two different stats there.

Really, did you look at how they came up with the numbers, first they only used numbers from 3 cities and only the numbers where there was an injury or death. There are hunders of thousands if not millions of instances where a firearm is used for home defense where there are no injuries and their myth ingnores them. Just more proof that when you control the input you can make stats say anything you want. Care to try again.

No, you're not getting this...

They start with "In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property." ....

That's a base number, but it's not important because the point it's developing is this:

"a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument."

More than 50% of that group. It's got nothing to do with national totals of anything; you take the group you started with that reported defensive incidents ..... and it turned out that over 50% of those incidents just mentioned were not as they were initially described. See it now? Nothing to do with numbers of totals of anything; the point is that these casual reports, once examined. are not what they say they are.

 

[hortysir]

Talk about a bunch of bull shit, the author can't even address conflicting stats with reality so I'm only going to point out one that jumped out at me but there are many more.

From your link:

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

Also from your link:

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

Using their stats, if 1% (3.2 million) of the population used a gun in self defense and for every such use there are 7 assaults or murders, that would be 22.4 million assaults or murders, 11 suicides, that would be 35.2 million suicides and 4 accidents would equal 12.8 million accidents.

According to the CDC there are 11,032 homicides and 55,534 assaults by firearms which is no where close to the claimed 22.4 million.
According to the CDC there are only 19,392 gun suicides in the US no where close to the 35.2 million your author claims with his cherry picked stats.
The latest data I could find from the CDC on accident was for 1998 was about 15,000 once again no where close to the 12.8 million the author would indicate.

So your myths seem to myths themselves, care to try again?

Oh, stop it!!!

MotherJones said it so it's FACT

 

[Saigon]

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Homicide

While not all of these papers are available on the net, you can buy them in book form for a few bucks - I did, and found it well worth reading.