Taxes: 1%ers -> PAY UP!!!

[cad]

If the rich are not "keeping their money" why is their percentage of wealth increasing in a downward economy while the working class standard of living is diminishing? They are not creating more wealth for everyone, the rising tide is only lifting the yachts

Stop trying to make me feel sorry for the 1%

Not what I'm doing. I'm just curious why you think people should have to earn the right to keep what they already earned.

Its quite simple Dave...

We belong to a great society and draw much more off of that society than we contribute. As members of a society, we are expected to contribute. In return, we benefit from what that society has to offer.

i am just curious as to what you mean by "drawing" off of society?

how does one contribute to society?
how does one draw from society?

 

[daveman]

If the rich are not "keeping their money" why is their percentage of wealth increasing in a downward economy while the working class standard of living is diminishing? They are not creating more wealth for everyone, the rising tide is only lifting the yachts

Stop trying to make me feel sorry for the 1%

Not what I'm doing. I'm just curious why you think people should have to earn the right to keep what they already earned.

Its quite simple Dave...

We belong to a great society and draw much more off of that society than we contribute. As members of a society, we are expected to contribute. In return, we benefit from what that society has to offer.

That doesn't explain why you think people should have to earn the right to keep what they already earned.

 

[cad]

are you arguing that if someone has more, they've by definition drawn more from society?

 

[rightwinger]

Not what I'm doing. I'm just curious why you think people should have to earn the right to keep what they already earned.

Its quite simple Dave...

We belong to a great society and draw much more off of that society than we contribute. As members of a society, we are expected to contribute. In return, we benefit from what that society has to offer.

i am just curious as to what you mean by "drawing" off of society?

how does one contribute to society?
how does one draw from society?

You gain more from belonging to a group than you do trying to survive as an individual. It is called civilization. You would not have access to roads, sewers, clean water, schools, police and fire protection, hospitals....if it were not for society
That is what you draw off of society. And you receive much more than if you attempted to recreate it individually.
Now, lets look at the wealthy. What have they taken from society? They are provided with a free trade infrastructure that allows them to compete, they are provided with an educated workforce, they are protected internationally, they benefit more from our public infrastructure in order to make more money.

 

[cad]

Its quite simple Dave...

We belong to a great society and draw much more off of that society than we contribute. As members of a society, we are expected to contribute. In return, we benefit from what that society has to offer.

i am just curious as to what you mean by "drawing" off of society?

how does one contribute to society?
how does one draw from society?

You gain more from belonging to a group than you do trying to survive as an individual. It is called civilization. You would not have access to roads, sewers, clean water, schools, police and fire protection, hospitals....if it were not for society
That is what you draw off of society. And you receive much more than if you attempted to recreate it individually.
Now, lets look at the wealthy. What have they taken from society? They are provided with a free trade infrastructure that allows them to compete, they are provided with an educated workforce, they are protected internationally, they benefit more from our public infrastructure in order to make more money.

that doesn't show how a wealthy person draws MORE from society.
i work in restaurant industry. did the guy who runs a successful restaurant draw more from society than the guy whose place next store that failed did? they both had access to the same workforce, international protections adn public infrastructure.

i don't really get your argument.
the points you are making fit the debate, who has it better, the walthy in US or the wealthy in europe/latin america?

 

[rightwinger]

i am just curious as to what you mean by "drawing" off of society?

how does one contribute to society?
how does one draw from society?

You gain more from belonging to a group than you do trying to survive as an individual. It is called civilization. You would not have access to roads, sewers, clean water, schools, police and fire protection, hospitals....if it were not for society
That is what you draw off of society. And you receive much more than if you attempted to recreate it individually.
Now, lets look at the wealthy. What have they taken from society? They are provided with a free trade infrastructure that allows them to compete, they are provided with an educated workforce, they are protected internationally, they benefit more from our public infrastructure in order to make more money.

that doesn't show how a wealthy person draws MORE from society.
i work in restaurant industry. did the guy who runs a successful restaurant draw more from society than the guy whose place next store that failed did? they both had access to the same workforce, international protections adn public infrastructure.

i don't really get your argument.
the points you are making fit the debate, who has it better, the walthy in US or the wealthy in europe/latin america?

OK...lets look at the guy in the restaurant

- He gets uncontaminated food
- He gets police and fire protection
- He gets roads so that supplies and customers can reach his restaurant
- He gets sewers, water, electric, gas...
- he gets protection from unfair business practices from his competetors

That is what he gets from society. He does not get a right to succeed. The business that is successful pays taxes on its profits ....the business that fails, he gets the right to declare bankruptcy and blow off all his creditors and he will be protected by society

 

[Bern80]

I am perfectly willing to give the top 1% their tax cut back once the deficit has been paid down and the economy is on sound footing

Why is the deficit the responsibility of the rich? If you want to solve this problem you need to get to the root of it. Either one of two things are going on here; 1) Either our government is spending our money as frugally and wisely as they can and they still aren't generating enough revenue to do things it seems to thing it MUST do, or 2) It isn't.

Because we are borrowing money to pay for a tax cut that provided no jobs and a crashed economy

How is that the fault of the rich? You really believe the tax cut is why the economy crashed?

P.S. an interesting article about the wealthy

millionaire-myths: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

We all have are preconceptions about millionaires: they're tax evaders who just inherited their money from rich Aunt Flo, and they hang around the golf course all day with their snobby, elitist friends. So what's the average millionaire really like? Here are seven millionaire myths, and the real facts about the ones who seem to have it all.

investomillionaire.jpg

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

2. Millionaires Just Inherited Their Money
According to Thomas J. Stanley's book, "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy," only 20% of millionaires inherited their riches. The other 80% are what you'd call nouveau riche: first-generation millionaires who earned their cash on their own. Many millionaires simply worked, saved, and lived within their means to generate their wealth -- think accountants and managers: regular people going to work every day. Most millionaires didn't get their riches overnight when a rich relative died -- they worked for the money.

More from Investopedia:

• 6 Millionaire Traits That You Can Adopt

• 10 Steps to Retire a Millionaire

• 6 Biggest Millionaire Flops

3. Millionaires Feel Rich
From the outside looking in, you would think that millionaires feel rich and secure, but that's not so. Most millionaires worry about retirement, their kids' college fund and the mortgage just like the rest of us. Those worries are greatest among new millionaires, the people who just recently acquired their wealth.

[Click here to check savings products and rates in your area.]

4. Millionaires Have High-Paying Jobs
It certainly doesn't hurt to be gainfully employed, but half of all millionaires are self-employed or own a business. It does help to have a college degree, as about 80 percent are college graduates, though only 18% have master's degrees.

5. Millionaires All Drive Fancy Cars
You can get that idea of the rich guy in a fancy German car out of your head when you think of a millionaire: They actually drive a Ford, with the carmaker topping the millionaire preferred car list at 9.4 percent. Cadillacs run second on the millionaires' favorite car list, and Lincolns third according to onmoneymaking.com.

[See the Rare $100,000 Bill]

Car payments are an investment with little return, which is why someone looking to grow wealth avoids high-priced vehicles in favor of a more economical set of wheels.

6. Millionaires Hang Around the Golf Course All Day
Those millionaires are all retired, with nothing else to do but hang around the golf course, right? Wrong. Only 20 percent of millionaires are retirees, with a full 80 percent still going to work. It's not as glamorous or fun, but millionaires go to work just like you do; it's how the money gets in the bank.

7. Millionaires Are Elitists
We've already established that most millionaires earned their money and not inherited it, still go to work, drive a Ford, and worry about their kids' college expenses. Sounds a lot like the rest of America, right? Millionaires come in all shapes and sizes -- some may be elitists, but most are just regular Joes who successfully managed their money.

[5 Billionaire Habits That Can Make You Richer]

The Bottom Line
Maybe you see a pattern here: Today's millionaires are people who live within their means, budget and spend wisely, and focus on financial independence first. These are habits that take discipline, but ones we can all adopt to begin growing wealth. If these facts prove anything, it's that every one of us can strive to become a millionaire -- you can start by driving your old car with pride.

 

[rightwinger]

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

If they pay 40% of the taxes it only means they are taking 40% of the income.......sounds fair doesn't it?

Its not that they don't pay taxes, its that the tax code is written by millionairs for millionaires. Its what they don't report and what is not taxable where the money is.

This article seems old. We are talking about the 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth. Think hundreds of millions. Even i qualify as a millionaire...its not that big a deal anymore

 

[Bern80]

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

If they pay 40% of the taxes it only means they are taking 40% of the income.......sounds fair doesn't it?

Its not that they don't pay taxes, its that the tax code is written by millionairs for millionaires. Its what they don't report and what is not taxable where the money is.

This article seems old. We are talking about the 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth. Think hundreds of millions. Even i qualify as a millionaire...its not that big a deal anymore

Really? You have a net worth figuring all of your assetts that equal a million dollars. You own your home outright? Your car? Do you own a small business or some business? What are you saying, the article is inaccurate? If so, show your evidence.

You still haven't made your argument. Why is it FAIR for the rich to have to pay even more taxes? They already pay the bulk of them. Here's a hint 'becuse they have more' is NOT an argument that can be defined as fair.

 

[daveman]

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

If they pay 40% of the taxes it only means they are taking 40% of the income.......sounds fair doesn't it?

Its not that they don't pay taxes, its that the tax code is written by millionairs for millionaires. Its what they don't report and what is not taxable where the money is.

This article seems old. We are talking about the 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth. Think hundreds of millions. Even i qualify as a millionaire...its not that big a deal anymore

I believe I said earlier in this thread that liberals believe the point at which someone is considered "rich" is always "just a little bit more than what I make".

And you didn't let me down.

 

[cad]

You gain more from belonging to a group than you do trying to survive as an individual. It is called civilization. You would not have access to roads, sewers, clean water, schools, police and fire protection, hospitals....if it were not for society
That is what you draw off of society. And you receive much more than if you attempted to recreate it individually.
Now, lets look at the wealthy. What have they taken from society? They are provided with a free trade infrastructure that allows them to compete, they are provided with an educated workforce, they are protected internationally, they benefit more from our public infrastructure in order to make more money.

that doesn't show how a wealthy person draws MORE from society.
i work in restaurant industry. did the guy who runs a successful restaurant draw more from society than the guy whose place next store that failed did? they both had access to the same workforce, international protections adn public infrastructure.

i don't really get your argument.
the points you are making fit the debate, who has it better, the walthy in US or the wealthy in europe/latin america?

OK...lets look at the guy in the restaurant

- He gets uncontaminated food
- He gets police and fire protection
- He gets roads so that supplies and customers can reach his restaurant
- He gets sewers, water, electric, gas...
- he gets protection from unfair business practices from his competetors

That is what he gets from society. He does not get a right to succeed. The business that is successful pays taxes on its profits ....the business that fails, he gets the right to declare bankruptcy and blow off all his creditors and he will be protected by society

everyone,poor or rich, gets uncontaminated food.
everyone, poor or rich, gets police/fire protection.
everyone,poor or rich, gets roads,
everyone, poor or rich, gets sewers, water, electirc, gas

i really don't understand the point you're making. how does that show that the rich aren't paying enough in taxes?

so in your opinion, the guy who owns a restaurant, employs 15 people and makes 200K a year, draws more from society than the line cook who makes 10 buck an hour, gets food stamps, takes public transporation to work and doesn't pay any income tax?

 

[rightwinger]

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

If they pay 40% of the taxes it only means they are taking 40% of the income.......sounds fair doesn't it?

Its not that they don't pay taxes, its that the tax code is written by millionairs for millionaires. Its what they don't report and what is not taxable where the money is.

This article seems old. We are talking about the 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth. Think hundreds of millions. Even i qualify as a millionaire...its not that big a deal anymore

Really? You have a net worth figuring all of your assetts that equal a million dollars. You own your home outright? Your car? Do you own a small business or some business? What are you saying, the article is inaccurate? If so, show your evidence.

You still haven't made your argument. Why is it FAIR for the rich to have to pay even more taxes? They already pay the bulk of them. Here's a hint 'becuse they have more' is NOT an argument that can be defined as fair.

Sewer work pays really well and we find alot of coins. Accumulating a Mil over 30 plus years is not that hard. Home, retirement fund, investments....it all adds up over time

They pay the bulk of the taxes because they have the bulk of the income......sounds fair to me. They also benefit more from society.
As the Golden Rule says....He who has the gold makes the rules

In this case, the rules were changed to allow the wealthy to pay at a lower tax rate. The justification was...more jobs, trickle down, rising tide lifts all boats, more jobs, stimulate the economy, trickle down

Guess what? It never happened....Was that FAIR?

 

[rightwinger]

that doesn't show how a wealthy person draws MORE from society.
i work in restaurant industry. did the guy who runs a successful restaurant draw more from society than the guy whose place next store that failed did? they both had access to the same workforce, international protections adn public infrastructure.

i don't really get your argument.
the points you are making fit the debate, who has it better, the walthy in US or the wealthy in europe/latin america?

OK...lets look at the guy in the restaurant

- He gets uncontaminated food
- He gets police and fire protection
- He gets roads so that supplies and customers can reach his restaurant
- He gets sewers, water, electric, gas...
- he gets protection from unfair business practices from his competetors

That is what he gets from society. He does not get a right to succeed. The business that is successful pays taxes on its profits ....the business that fails, he gets the right to declare bankruptcy and blow off all his creditors and he will be protected by society

everyone,poor or rich, gets uncontaminated food.
everyone, poor or rich, gets police/fire protection.
everyone,poor or rich, gets roads,
everyone, poor or rich, gets sewers, water, electirc, gas

i really don't understand the point you're making. how does that show that the rich aren't paying enough in taxes?

so in your opinion, the guy who owns a restaurant, employs 15 people and makes 200K a year, draws more from society than the line cook who makes 10 buck an hour, gets food stamps, takes public transporation to work and doesn't pay any income tax?

Yes he does...The owner of the restaurant needs roads for his customers and supplies to reach his store....the worker only needs to get to work
If the worker buys contaminated food, his family gets sick....If the restaurant owner buys contaminated food....he is out of business
The restaurant owner needs police protection more than the worker...Theives know where the money is

 

[cad]

so you're admitting the rich don't draw more from society than the poor?

thank you.

 

[rightwinger]

1. Millionaires Don't Pay Their Taxes
Fact: It is estimated that millionaires, those in the top 1% of earners, pay about 40 percent of all taxes. Current tax regulation shifts may change these numbers to make this even larger than that -- so think twice before accusing the millionaires in America of not paying taxes.

If they pay 40% of the taxes it only means they are taking 40% of the income.......sounds fair doesn't it?

Its not that they don't pay taxes, its that the tax code is written by millionairs for millionaires. Its what they don't report and what is not taxable where the money is.

This article seems old. We are talking about the 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth. Think hundreds of millions. Even i qualify as a millionaire...its not that big a deal anymore

I believe I said earlier in this thread that liberals believe the point at which someone is considered "rich" is always "just a little bit more than what I make".

And you didn't let me down.

We are not talking about people who make 20-30% more than you or I. We are talking people who make a thousand times what we make.

We are talking about the top 1% of the country who control 35% of the wealth. They are beyond rich. They control enough money to influence the processs. Literally "He who has the gold, makes the rules"

 

[rightwinger]

so you're admitting the rich don't draw more from society than the poor?

thank you.

The key is that they benefit more from the society. They also use more than the common worker. A worker has one car using the road. Your restaurant owner has trucks delivering food and supplies, customers...all using the roads to make him money

 

[chopcrazy]

Does anyone have research that shows where people by income group spends there money?

For millionaire wage earners...

Income = 1,000,000
tax = 400,000 (for arguments sake)
food = ?
shelter = ?
transportation = ?
vacation = ?
entertainment = ?
charity = ?
investments?
etc.

do the same for the average worker ($50,000)

Would not make sense to know what each person spends by pie slice? If a person is keeping there earned money all to themselves, then the argument might be made that if the governement were to take it; then the govt could spend it on something to help others. If the person has s[emt all their money; then if the govt were to take more of the earned money, the person would have to reduce spending from the non "tax" expenditures which would not help society, imo.

 

[boedicca]

We are not talking about people who make 20-30% more than you or I. We are talking people who make a thousand times what we make.

We are talking about the top 1% of the country who control 35% of the wealth. They are beyond rich. They control enough money to influence the processs. Literally "He who has the gold, makes the rules"

That's not the level that the Dems have targeted as being The Rich and deserving of the punitive taxes for The Rich.

Families making $250K only make about 5 times the median income in the U.S., which is a far cry from 1,000s of times more. Why are they targeted? Because the truly Rich are untouchable by the government and even if all of their wealth were confiscated, it would not make much of a difference to the government budget problem. The real money is in bleeding out those who have no choice but to continue drudging along in their jobs so that they can make their mortgage payments and send their kids to college.

 

[cad]

so you're admitting the rich don't draw more from society than the poor?

thank you.

The key is that they benefit more from the society. They also use more than the common worker. A worker has one car using the road. Your restaurant owner has trucks delivering food and supplies, customers...all using the roads to make him money

as far as i can tell, the same restaurant is providing both their salaries. so those trucks bringing beef and vegetables and toilet paper, and those customers buying burgers pay for both the owners and the dishwashers salary. without the suppliers and customers, neither would get a paycheck.
one just happens to be bigger than the others.

which is really what you have a problem with, isn't it?

 

[kyzr]

You guys are getting off-topic. This post by rightwinger nailed it /thread


US Wealth Distribution
One way to ‘see’ the distribution of wealth in the U.S. is to imagine a group of 100 people who have a $100 between them. Evenly distributed each would have one dollar of wealth. Alas, that is far from the actual distribution. According to the most recent study, Currents and Undercurrents, by the Survey of Consumer Finance (Federal Reserve, Department of Treasury, 2006) wealth is distributed accordingly:

50 individuals at the bottom have a nickel. ($0.05 times 50 = $2.50)

The next 40 each have $0.70 of wealth (40 times $0.70 - $28.00).

The next 9 each have $4.00 of wealth (nine times $4.00 = $36.00)

The last richest individual has $33.40 (one time $33.40).

Combined, you have $100.00.

In looking to raise more revenue, why would you go after the people who only have 5 cents of available wealth instead of the 1% of the population that has $33.40 of the available wealth?