CDZ Stabbings in Israel

[Billo_Really]

The last time I was in Israel was 1978 and I have been to Pakistan as well. Will post the pictures one day. What I learned about the middle east was the Sunni controlled areas were more peaceful then the Shia.

And to be honest I think its the Shia that is causing the problems.

The occupation is the cause of all the violence.

How would you like it if a foreign army came into your neighborhood and set up so many checkpoints that a 15 minute trip to the local market, now takes over 2 hours, provided, they allow you to proceed at all?

 

[DarkFury]

The last time I was in Israel was 1978 and I have been to Pakistan as well. Will post the pictures one day. What I learned about the middle east was the Sunni controlled areas were more peaceful then the Shia.

And to be honest I think its the Shia that is causing the problems.

The occupation is the cause of all the violence.

How would you like it if a foreign army came into your neighborhood and set up so many checkpoints that a 15 minute trip to the local market, now takes over 2 hours, provided, they allow you to proceed at all?

I lived over there I KNOW what the roll is. Judging rental houses by how good the bomb shelters were I REMEMBER okay?

 

[TemplarKormac]

You cannot be world wide terrorists on a Monday and expect mercy on a Tuesday.

Palestinian's are not terrorists. They have a legal right to resist the occupation of their land by a foreign force.

The UN codified this right in 1973...

[In 1973]...the General Assembly recognized that armed struggle was a legitimate part of a liberation movement, declaring that the Assembly:

1. Reaffirms the inalienable right of all people under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation to self-determination, freedom and independence ...;

"2. Also reaffirms the legitimacy of the peoples' struggle for liberation from colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation by all available means, including armed struggle;
​

All this unrest is a direct result of the illegal and immoral occupation and blockade. For it to stop, the occupation must end.

Might I ask how they are "resisting" when they are crossing the border into Israel and knifing people? How does that work out?

 

[Indofred]

If I had been the cop in BOTH I would have killed BOTH. Period.

Fine, but how would you feel if you were applauded for one killing, but investigated for another that was essentially the same situation?

 

[Indofred]

The man wins a coconut.
It's that difference I'm attempting to explore.

It is a systemic problem due to the fact that we now have an entire generation of Israeli's who have grown up learning to hate and dehumanize Palestinian's.

We also have an entire generation of Palestinian's, who have grown up living under a brutal occupation their entire lives.

We also have a least a section of the Palestinian community trained to hate Jews.
However, IF your assertion is correct, that would explain the difference in attitudes towards the two killings.

 

[Indofred]

The usual crop of hate posts is just an attempt to derail the thread.
I want to explore the differences in attitudes towards the two killing.

Of course, if there is a hatred built into a community, or both communities, that would explain it.
So, is that hate trained into Israel's kids?
If so, is that the reason for the differences in reactions to these killings?

Any reply should be backed up with evidence or indications, not just blind hatred.
We are aware the Arab knife attackers hate Israelis or they wouldn't do it, so that's a pointless argument.

 

[Indofred]

And to be honest I think its the Shia that is causing the problems.

How does that explain the differences in attitudes held by some Jews?

 

[Billo_Really]

We also have a least a section of the Palestinian community trained to hate Jews.
However, IF your assertion is correct, that would explain the difference in attitudes towards the two killings.

I don't think they hate Jews. They hate Israeli's, because they're taught to hate Israeli's, by Israeli's.

 

[Billo_Really]

Might I ask how they are "resisting" when they are crossing the border into Israel and knifing people? How does that work out?

The majority of Palestinian deaths are the case where the Israeli police cross the border and kill them on land that isn't Israel's and on land they [the Israeli's] have no legal right to be on and on land where they [the Israeli's] have no jurisdiction to enforce the law.

 

[Billo_Really]

The usual crop of hate posts is just an attempt to derail the thread.
I want to explore the differences in attitudes towards the two killing.

Of course, if there is a hatred built into a community, or both communities, that would explain it.
So, is that hate trained into Israel's kids?
If so, is that the reason for the differences in reactions to these killings?

Any reply should be backed up with evidence or indications, not just blind hatred.
We are aware the Arab knife attackers hate Israelis or they wouldn't do it, so that's a pointless argument.

The media has a lot to blame for that on how they report the story's. The Israeli's are always portrayed as the "victims" and the Palestinian's are always portrayed as "terrorists".

Cultures of Hate: Israelis, not Palestinians, Excel at Vengeance
Shock and anger have engulfed Israeli and Palestinian societies since they learnt last week of the barbarous murder of children from their communities. Hours after three Israeli teenagers’ bodies were located, long after their abduction, a Palestinian youth, Mohammed Abu Khdeir, was kidnapped, beaten and burnt to death, apparently as revenge.

These horrifying events should serve as a lesson in the obscene futility of vengeance. As a relative of one of the murdered children observed: “There is no difference between blood and blood.”

Sadly, that was not the message implicit in much of last week’s coverage. On social media, a juxtaposition of pictures from the same day’s New York Times showed how easy it is to forget not only that our blood is the same but that grief is too.

A headline about Israelis’ “heartbreak” was illustrated movingly by the families of the three Israeli teenagers huddled together, overwhelmed by their loss. A report on the killing of 16-year-old Abu Khdeir, on the other hand, was accompanied by an image of masked youths throwing stones.
​

 

[irosie91]

the attacker was a muslim with a knife

No, he was Jewish

Jewish man killed by Israeli police - JerusalemOnline

Jewish man killed by Israeli police
Hours after Shahar Maman (34) was shot dead by a policeman while holding a knife during a fight in Bat Yam, his friends were outraged. "The policeman could have shot him in the leg, why did he kill him?" Israeli Police: "Maman was holding a knife and ran toward the policeman." internal affairs will investigate this incident.

ok if a man runs toward the cops brandishing a knife-------the logical conclusion is SUICIDE BY COP.
He may have been psychotic. There was a case in my town several years ago in which cops shot a man
brandishing an AXE--------his neighbors complained "He does that all the time but never hurts anyone"
The cop was cleared. What point are you struggling to make?

 

[Fishlore]

As Ronald Reagan observed, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The crucial issue in discussions about the current unrest in Palestine is whether the Palestinians participating are terrorists or freedom fighters. The answer doesn't depend so much on the specific actions of individuals involved as our own view as to what they are involved in.

The framing question it seems to me is, "by what right does Israel occupy and police the West Bank?" Once that one is sorted out, the rest of the discussion rolls pretty much down hill.

 

[irosie91]

As Ronald Reagan observed, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The crucial issue in discussions about the current unrest in Palestine is whether the Palestinians participating are terrorists or freedom fighters. The answer doesn't depend so much on the specific actions of individuals involved as our own view as to what they are involved in.

The framing question it seems to me is, "by what right does Israel occupy and police the West Bank?" Once that one is sorted out, the rest of the discussion rolls pretty much down hill.

right----long ago I was ----kinda responsible for a minute aspect of the care of
US personnel stationed in Germany-------the USA sorta still "Occupied" west berlin at
that time-------the active duty military and their dependents-------a few actually got
FLOWN into the US to benefit from my brilliant care. --------I NEVER SAW A STAB
WOUND. Learn some history

 

[Fishlore]

You cannot be world wide terrorists on a Monday and expect mercy on a Tuesday.

Palestinian's are not terrorists. They have a legal right to resist the occupation of their land by a foreign force.

The UN codified this right in 1973...

[In 1973]...the General Assembly recognized that armed struggle was a legitimate part of a liberation movement, declaring that the Assembly:

1. Reaffirms the inalienable right of all people under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation to self-determination, freedom and independence ...;

"2. Also reaffirms the legitimacy of the peoples' struggle for liberation from colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation by all available means, including armed struggle;
​

All this unrest is a direct result of the illegal and immoral occupation and blockade. For it to stop, the occupation must end.

Might I ask how they are "resisting" when they are crossing the border into Israel and knifing people? How does that work out?

You've got your thumb on the right button with "crossing the border into Israel." The borders of Israel are what the whole shebang is all about.

Israel's policy is that the IDF can draw the nation's borders wherever it can make them stick. The rest of the world does not agree. A self-determined need for lebensraum is not considered a justification for a war of aggression.

American Jews like Netanyahu think they can let the Merkavahs roll because God gave Judea and Samaria to the Jews. This too, has no legal authority; what is more, it ignores the fact that in 72 CE, He took it away again.

 

[Billo_Really]

Might I ask how they are "resisting" when they are crossing the border into Israel and knifing people? How does that work out?

In terms of border crossings, the IDF crossings outnumber the Pal crossing over a 100-1. The IDF kills far more Palestinian's in the OPT, than the Pals do in Israel. In light of all the IDF crossings, its a little disingenuous to point at the Pal knifings as the problem.

If Israel ended the occupation and blockade, then yes, you would have a point and I would agree with you. But you also need to consider that a lot of stabbings in Israel are done by Arab-Israeli's who are sick of the way they are being treated like 2nd class citizens.

 

[Billo_Really]

As Ronald Reagan observed, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The crucial issue in discussions about the current unrest in Palestine is whether the Palestinians participating are terrorists or freedom fighters. The answer doesn't depend so much on the specific actions of individuals involved as our own view as to what they are involved in.

The framing question it seems to me is, "by what right does Israel occupy and police the West Bank?" Once that one is sorted out, the rest of the discussion rolls pretty much down hill.

They have no right occupying the West Bank. Occupations are supposed to be temporary. This ones been going on for almost 50 years. It is also illegal to transfer a portion of the Occupiers population into the area being occupied. Israel has transferred in a half million settlers. The blockade of Gaza, is collective punishment. That's a war crime.

 

[Indeependent]

As Ronald Reagan observed, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The crucial issue in discussions about the current unrest in Palestine is whether the Palestinians participating are terrorists or freedom fighters. The answer doesn't depend so much on the specific actions of individuals involved as our own view as to what they are involved in.

The framing question it seems to me is, "by what right does Israel occupy and police the West Bank?" Once that one is sorted out, the rest of the discussion rolls pretty much down hill.

They have no right occupying the West Bank. Occupations are supposed to be temporary. This ones been going on for almost 50 years. It is also illegal to transfer a portion of the Occupiers population into the area being occupied. Israel has transferred in a half million settlers. The blockade of Gaza, is collective punishment. That's a war crime.

Wow! I really appreciate you sitting back and taking the time to compose an original message.
By the way, you get a 100 for repeating Nazi web-site revisionist history.
You makkah me proud.

 

[Katzndogz]

The Palestinians and Israelis had no problem until Yasser Arafat and the first intifada. Had there been no Arafat, Palestine would have had their state by now.

 

[Billo_Really]

Wow! I really appreciate you sitting back and taking the time to compose an original message.
By the way, you get a 100 for repeating Nazi web-site revisionist history.
You makkah me proud.

Do you know where you are?

 

[Billo_Really]

The Palestinians and Israelis had no problem until Yasser Arafat and the first intifada. Had there been no Arafat, Palestine would have had their state by now.

There were no problems between Arabs and Jews in Palestine prior to the Zionist migration.

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

Inherent anti-Semitism? — continued
“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.”​

Prior to the Zionist migration, there were no recorded major incidents of violence between the two groups.

Inherent anti-Semitism? — continued
“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”​

Why would anyone tolerate this from people just moving into the neighborhood?

Jews attitude towards Arabs when reaching Palestine.
“Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
​

This is when the violence began.